ah, 2 individuals were awarded the 2021 nobel prize and chemistry for their development of asymmetric organic catalyse. what exactly is that? yeah, i'm not so sure either. but today we'll find out and also learn how it is and environmentally friendly to, to make molecules. i'm going to have shatner, and i don't understand the developments and the importance of catalysts in chemistry. ah, ah, i don't understand. my guest to day is david big. melanie is

a professor of chemistry at princeton university shares a 2021 nobel prize in chemistry for the development of asymmetric organic get alice's day was agreed to join me to explain the developments in and the importance of catalysts in chemistry welcomed david mcmillan. mr. mcmillan, when i tell you that the equivalent of tearing through a telescope at the income, prehensile ability of space for most of us, is the same as pairing into a microscope. but the incompetence ability of matter, you at least could be our guide. in some of this stuff, which seems to be better known than the, than the stuff you get from space and the telescope. would you,

would you just start off by telling us, what is what it is you got the nobel prize award for? sure. thanks bill. well, so we got it for this thing called a symmetric organic to, to alice's was sunday organic, it's allison was a work that i made up to define what it was we were doing. sounds like you have to do that again. but basically, if you look around your studio there, or if i were to write my office, absolutely. everything around us is made by a chemical reaction. everything. and what catalysts do remarkable, is they allow these chemical reactions to happen much more readily. it take a lot less energy and in some cases it makes it, they allows you to do chemical reactions. you just couldn't do before. so organic because alice's is just the people had been using metals and things which are toxic are problematic for the environment or really expensive or difficult to walk up.

and we had the idea much like enzymes, organic, due to talent as what if we could come up with really small molecules. the ro, janet, are good for the environment that are around everywhere and get them to do exactly the same type of allison, which is what we that, that's right. that's why we were, i believe it really gave us the price. so catalysts exist in nature. yes. absolutely. yeah, and, and they encourage more rapid what chemical reaction oh absolutely you and i would not be alive with all the countless in our body. all those enzymes allow things to happen. chemical reaction to happen that wouldn't be able to happen. otherwise, you need those for life to, to basically be sustained but, but, but they happen because nature evolve, that, is that correct? that's exactly right. so an enzyme enhanced life as it began.

so just to start at the beginning does, is there a how to nature request an enzyme for something to happen? yeah, that's the greatest kicking the egg conundrum that they are. and there's a whole field of people who are actually just even trying to figure this whole thing i did life doing if you need these catalysts for life to happen, where the cat was come from and so on, so forth. so that's a great question. so that's unknown at the moment, there are some fields of people who are very good series as to how that happens. the problem, as you can prove it, because you'd have to go back and even phone life to try and start all over again to see if it could work or can you. but you can get a results, doesn't the result prove it? and not necessarily, because if you think about it, you know, maybe later started with 6 different ways. and maybe you create 6 different ways to,

to test that. and they all worked. so which one was, you know, you're start, you're back to square one. so that's a little beyond the germans ability to quite understand the overwhelming be my my, the thrust in life these days is talking about the environment and all the stuff we need to do to keep ourselves alive in global warming times. is it possible that what you're doing because the word green has been applied to your, to your work? is it possible for people like yourselves? and i mean a nobel prize winners like an academy award winner. right. i mean, it's the top of the top of the line. it's kind of the land, but we don't get the same kind of party unfortunately. so, but you get money and the money being paid, play big paid out for a party. it goes, it goes to you for all your hard work. but is there

a role that you and people like yourself can play in taking carbon out of the air for example. oh absolutely. i mean, one of the things that, you know, i think all sciences, so chemist care a lot is how do we, how do we solve this problem, right. we have to, i mean i personally think we're going to solve it, but it's 20 take an awful works. but the key thing is doing what you're saying, which is developing technologies, which are a 100 percent sustainable. we have technologies right now which lowest level lives, but not just the animal. so the whole idea of how would you be saw what that switch and move to all these new technologies. so it's going to take lots and you inventions. what we did was one of those advantages. we allow that to come up with a way of allowing a large scale to tell us as well. all right, the 1st step is changing people's minds from,

from smokestacks, spewing out smoke, to, oh dear, that's not good. let's do something about that. that's the 1st step, isn't it? 100 percent. and we've arrived at that step. so now the idea is how do you take those polluting industries which have turned out to be necessary for life as we know it to continue as against going back to some stone age thing? how do we do that? so what methodology are you looking at to take what you've done in catalyst to, to work out what day? give us a story about how that might work. give you an example so far across the world right now. people have to produce lots of molecules on enormous scale for society to exist, many different ones. and it comes, it takes many, many,

many steps to make those things. and all of those steps, inquire, lots of energy consumption, which requires lots of c o, 2 being generated obviously. so one of the things we're doing is we've invented another area where you actually use light to drive chemical reactions just like that. you're using light photo catalyse. yes. you just name the problem. so how does that work? i mean, what else can you me with hardly knowing h 2. 0, how can you explain that to me? how does that? yeah it's, it's really, really cool. so what it is, is these countless, you will put in a vessel, and it may be surrounded by so many other types of molecules. but it sounds like these catalysts are the only ones. the other ones are blake. and when they absorb late, it may be something as simple as just say, blue light, blue light. you and i was a blue light right behind you, right?

no doesn't hot, doesn't harm you, does nothing in your skin without blue light when it's some saw by a chalice is the equivalent of going up to 23000 degrees celsius. in this time you are basle. and so what happens is you can know that out now los chemical reactions to happen because of that there were previously impossible without having it take that chemical reaction to the surface of the sun. you can actually do it in your studio without blue light setting behind you. and so those are ways that you can make a palace sustainable and get to these new chemical reactions will save all that energy just by using very simple sources of all my god. so who discovered that so the whole world, i mean basically it was in organic janice and organic chemistry. in organic, in organic yeah, the ones who would use and what they are doing, which is incredibly important, is trying to take the sunlight and then convert to all the forums on our house so that we don't have to rely on fossil fuels. what we did was to take that knowledge

and then transport the end to are data chemistry for making materials and medicines and lots of other applications at the same time. and we were piggybacking off of the knowledge that they generate. is that related in any way to fusion and getting that energy using using that methodology to get the energy? well, in some ways is related to the fusion is basically the, the demo nuclear devices in the sun, which are creating a 4 times the last question we have basically as a race, as we have this amazing source of energy that shames light on as every day and we're not using it mainly just driver what old? and we need to figure out how to store that energy as it comes to is already. and that's one of the questions that will be critical for future. so that leads us to batteries. is that not so how do we store energy? we used to use a chemical reaction substance here,

substance there and it, and it forms energy for a limited period of time. and we're working on batteries. is what you do working on, applicable to batteries as well. what we do, some of the principles of what we do are used in batteries. that was not, that was not that we didn't know invent components we just borrowed from it. but the whole principle of batteries, a lot of that is exactly the same principle that's involved in effect capella says we are really good. i then that's a perfect example of catabolism, right? the, those 2 different p is of metal you referred earlier to metal a catalyst, and that's i guess what you're referring to a battery is a one of our original discoveries of metal analysis. that's fantastic. more was david mcmillan after the break

with ah ah ah, i'm just even turned as governor of minnesota and i was on the front lines against the political a strangle to american politics. i'm still in white question more. ah there's something for you on your sports h q a. our culture is a wash and lives dominated by streams of never ending electronic hallucinations.

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the conversation with david mcmullen. he was recently awarded nobel prize in chemistry. ah, well, you know, the, in my amateur probing of the things that you study the, the concept of what a photon of light is and, and who is a particle in a wave and, and nobody understands that. do you understand? can you describe to me what a photon of light is? a photon of light is a packet of energy. the packet of energy though, is the physical description of what you're talking about and people have a really hard time describing. because based on the experiment you perform, it can appear on different forums. so that's the ambiguity that comes with 4 times . but from my world, the way we look at it is, it's just

a fantastic little packet of energy. it gets so much so much you can level someone is driving force, things that can do well what, but what is it? is that a molecule? is that a, is that a wave of energy? i mean, what were people like me try to i'm just with the limited knowledge that we have. we try to understand the concept escapes me is very difficult to sort of conceptualize because it's exactly what you're saying. but it's also how to conceive, all right, because you just said it completely right. it's energy. is this moving energy? but how do you describe it? is that way? if yes is a particle? yes. is it both? yes. cannot be possible. it doesn't seem to be. but it is, and so that's one of the hardest part. we're used to dealing with the real world, right? you can touch things and you can hold things and you can feel matter. the part with energy being a wave is much more harmful. comprehend because it's not a concept that we're used to dealing with in our sort of normal world of what does

it mean to hold something, grab something, county something. a wave of energy is just this. is it, is it excited then? is it an excited in an excited state, and does that expectation transfer to v as it goes along as it moves? well, what it does is it itself is not an exciting state. it's a form of energy. what's crazy about photons are when they interact with c catalysts, or moto, they can live the chalice or mater into an excited state. and when they go any of these excited states, they can do remarkable things that people, you know, probably a 150 years ago could never dreamed off. but now we saw strongly understand in science. and so no, the question is, what do you use was excited states for what are the clever ways that you can use it to change the way we would make madison's change? we make materials can read a plastics from the ocean. there's lots of great questions that you can go after by using those excited state sessions. give me

a note of hope of technology as broad as into is the simplistic way of stating that a brought us to the state of the, of the concept that the, that mankind good. and in the next several years. technology can bring us back from that. but that's my supposition. what do you see in, in them this, the exit exotic feel that you're in? what do you see that would give us some sense of hope that you will, inventor, people like you will invent our human kind out of the mess. we're in, well, i think one of the things that sometimes lost in this day and age is the fact that scientists are amazingly noble and passionate people, especially noble. and what i see is this massive call to arms of people who are trying and moving towards solving this problem. it's wonderful that it's getting so

much more attention amongst the general public. and the realization problem is everything. but now you see, so many people are coming towards the problem. i 100 percent believe it will be solved, but i can just believe that i have to actually be part of it. i suppose all the other sciences of going out there and watching to solve our problem. so one of the things he's really important is the fact that the public has begun realize this really well. i think that that's the case. and i, i ever been railing in the verbally and in print as much as my little voice can reach that what we need is a manhattan project to save the will get it, get car. but i guess the major thing is carbon out of the air on methane, but but cleaning the air is one of the major problems and, and you never hear this is the 1st time i've heard of a, of

a renown scientist saying, there is a call to arms who's calling to arms, and what was that calls? how is that call being being summoned and who's, who's answering it? well, the call to arms, as you can see, i mean at least from my perspective, that as you look to every son away, the information comes to his right now. you see it is no, absolutely everywhere the discussion around the problem. the climate. i think the other part is just what we've all been living through for the last 5 years and all human beings and all parts of the world can offense that you don't, you don't have to be over any things that i realize that all these changes are seeing around us in real time. so this is real understanding a real feeling i, for most of us, i know all of the site, but most of it, we have to do this. this is absolutely feeding back to scientists. all scientists you talk to, you know, us understand us and you know, seeing and every country and one that you visit, the people care and honestly and agencies, governments,

etc. daycare to the realize for the house to care. and so you, this call arms is very much pervasive, it's everywhere that is the like, that is as like mothers, milk. that's like, you know, that's like a soft note from the orchestra set of all a strident drums and brass. all of a sudden there's this calming voice. yes, we're all united. i'm doing this. this one of those is this wonderful show because it brings me into contact with wonderful people like yourself. and there was a gentleman on some while ago who was saying, you know, poverty is a lot less there's, there's reason for hope in the world in that poverty is less and there are things going on that are so positive. all we hear is the negative. what you've just said is so positive. what, how do you account for the fact that 2 individuals arrived at the same conclusion at the same time, and never talked to each other. that mister sims, simms, right?

mister les benjamin, last list. sorry. arrived at what you arrived at, at the same time without any contact. how's that possible? i, you know, i don't know, but i do know this happens a lot in science. it really does where you think you'll get the greatest idea in the world. you're just getting ready to publish it and you open up a journal and the, your idea of someone else it does happen. but this was, this was something for eyes, which was really remarkable. and i remember the 1st day i talked to them and we both realized we're working on it. basically very, very similar things. the good news was we were both really excited about, you know, sometimes scientists can go in opposite directions because we often mutually saw the benefit of multiple people. what went into work in this area? because if you think about it, science can only go forward if everyone's adults, the ideas, if you try and hold on in those ideas now pretty much good. it's going to come from

swear. but explain that. i mean, i'm thinking in terms of the little, i know about dr. hawkins saying there's a black hole and then as supplementing his, his dream has an imagination with facts supporting his thesis with, with fact. so i think he alone follow that. but he arrived at that because of the level of technology and knowledge had risen that level. now he was able to make the next jump. do you think that's the same thing with you? and both you arriving at the conclusion the same time. and let me also ask you this, the man, i know that just recently died was running a company which he amalgamated. fact he gathered facts, mutually medical facts. and so there was something published over there and

something published over there. he was able to bring them together because his computers and everybody realized they were working either against each other with each other at the same time. would that have helped you to have heard that he was publishing or he was working on that you were working on that? i mean, i think we actually did it pretty quickly, but the earlier, the better and the more people who know that can help each other the better. i'll tell you one quick story around what you just said and i think this is what relating to. so one of the things which is clear in science is like when, when 2 different areas can meet at the periphery, that's usually where all the good stuff is happening. because that's usually we are people, watson silo is right. and n s people actually go beyond those, i was, it's usually there's not what's been happening there. and when people can actually me and between, that's where all the good stuff, it's not for all the undiscovered stuff really resides. so we've been working hard to actually come up with this program where we get scientists to basically speak

date with each other. what i mean by that is getting scientists from different areas to talk to each other for 5 minutes talks to try and find common connections . in areas you think there'd be no connections. and what we found is that were really great discoveries can happen by getting people to try and connect to different years. and that's where symposiums work isn't where you get an invitation to come to some place in the world and sit down for a few days and talk. that's absolutely right. but the problem with symposiums, they tend to be really focused on a very specific area. what we've said, i realize the just say you take someone in chemistry and then you take someone you're science, it probably would never be ever at the same symposia. but imagine you saw through them all together and i saw a big ball and shoot it up. and force me talk to each other. it sounds like the actually what we some really well direct on the great are individuals who would know enough of each science to make that happen. are there not

entrepreneurs but but practitioners with people, with enough knowledge that isn't specific, but it's general enough to bring you and somebody else together are there that? yeah, so what you're saying is, can we possibly speak the same language enough to be able to connect? and at times when you're doing right now is you're really good at connecting people because this is why you've been the sure. and it sounds like good, good researchers should be good teachers and good teachers should be able to talk to people who don't know what are doing and somehow connect. and so what we've found are really good research was tend to be really good at been able to connect with other people and be able to speak to the other persons language. and as long as they can do that, then they can get to completely new discovery. so i think this is really important . wow, that's incredible. how did you, where you come from ireland?

scotland obviously right. where where in scotland do you come from? i come from the chinese still working tone, just reply to my father was a still worker and just i said he does go to university there. i dad i was, i only went to university. the reason i went to university, my brother was the nelson. i knew from anywhere in the world, he went to university, and after his guy jobs, he actually paid more money than my father still work. i my, my father told me immediately you have to go to university. so that was my fate was sealed up when you know, going back to making a molecule. what, how, how do you, how do you make a molecule? well, it turns out it's not, it's difficult. you, thanks. it's kind of really interest. i could take you in my lab and one afternoon, i could get you a molecule that has never been made in the universe ever before. you could do it in

the space of an app and it's actually a lot easier on you. thing. we do have a concept in mind when you make them all here. you said there's a molecule, i want to make a battery or, or is it just your, your tinkering? well, so what happens is when you go to college, when all these rules about what you can and cannot do to join atoms together. and so those are rules to game. what researchers like near doing is we're trying to invent new rules and new ways to get adams to connect with each other. and so just say you said, well, i could come up with this new way of trying to take carbon out of the atmosphere. and i would have to come up with this new molecule, it would do it. my job would be to try and figure out without molecule would be. and then how to go about making it, because there's no way to make it. and that's what's invent. and the new rules to the game, and that's what really we're all trying to it's been wonderful talking to you.

thank you so much. thanks my guest, david mcmillan who was helped me and i hope you to understand catalyst molecules, energy. and while i'm more knowledgeable about this topic, there's still a lot out there that i don't understand until next time. ah, me your questions? birth new questions. numbers as stars, and endless as the sea. and bring you all in sight. distance them and lift your eyes to all that remains in question. thought

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