ah, ah ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross top were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle fresh and special military operation and ukraine has changed the world in many ways . it is forcing the u. s. in its allies to rethink and reassess global security. we should not be surprised by this. after all, the post cold war era is over. what will replace it is still open to question. ah,

cross sucking the situation in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, daniel nick adams in lake jackson. he is the executive director of the ron paul institute for peace and prosperity in tens mania. we have ted see, he is a conflict consultant and a retired u. s. foreign service officer. and here in moscow we have maxime suits, cough. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute for international relations. hi gentlemen, crosswalk rules and effect. that means he can jump in any time you want and i will appreciate it. i want, i said, all 3 of you before we get started, we live in very tragic times. we did, we cannot predict the future, but we saw how it failed international order brought about a catastrophe for just about everybody involved. i just want to say that up frontier, daniel, i'm in my introduction. i said we're at the end of the post cold war era. am i right? or am i wrong? go ahead. now you're absolutely right. and there's, you know, there's a temptation to be too dramatic, but i don't, i don't think you're being over dramatic. i think the world has changed significantly since last thursday. the question is how,

how long lasting will it be? is it a lot of bluster on the part of the west? is germany blustering at the end of the day? they realize they don't like shivering in their apartments, or is something really significant changing in our people. most importantly, especially in the united states, are people willing to bear the burden of the changed world in terms of their personal economic lives. because the americans have never overtly born a burden of the many wars that washington has been in. this may be one that actually affects them. we'll see how it works out when they start feeling the pain . okay, to go to a 10 mania teds. basically the same question to you because we per month and month it was made very clear that the status quo is untenable and it was ignored. it was changing the subject to talking about values. i never know what this blinking guy has, what he's talking about. i need a translator to understand him. and then, you know, this is what happened. none of us wanted this to happen. but as i've said, the status quo is untenable. in russia, security interests were not recognized,

and this is what we have gotten. go ahead, ted and tens manian. thank you very much, peter. i was a foreign service officer for 26 years. and the last several of those were spent at nato headquarters were at dirt starting in 2008. the after effects of a very, very foolish decision on nato's part to promise eventual membership in the alliance to both georgia and ukraine. they could not done anything more responsible than that because they provided a hollow promise, which meant nothing. because frankly, none of the allies was really interested in joining both countries. but at the same time, they finally, once in for all your vocally crossed those red lines for the russian federation, there was no walking back from what they did in bucharest in 2008. well that's the, that's kind of the fact that, but i mean, we have actually, we could go one year before with the, the, the munich security conference where they basically drew his red lines. and then one year later, they were ignored here. max, i mean,

you're on this side of the pond here. all of this was more or less predictable. i mean, none of us, i don't know anyone that predicted the events of last thursday, but we knew we were going in this direction here. russia who did not want to cow to a liberal order. ready that was organized by the united states and its allies, and it was basically our way or the highway and the russian said no way, go ahead max. you know, well, i think also in my view, i saw every other, every single opportunity to come to, to come up with some diesel agreement or finding a new security architecture in your and it has several times throughout the 20 plus years of his presidency. every single time he's diplomatic approval is turn down ended up in war really eat with georgia following the cool when you bring in 2013 takeover and right now. and right now i think another wife or key,

she went for the entire world and secured and brush it difficult decision made by dives cast and it appears that this conflict, russia cannot afford to lose, but also the west doesn't seem to afford to lose. so i imagine things will be getting worse and more especially political domain. yeah. you know, daniel, that what was it so irritating? i work in media, this is what i do all the time. and the way it's being framed to protect a ukraine's democracy. well, it has nothing to do with ukraine's democracy. you can even say it has one as a topic for another program. this is about security and in the indivisibility of security for each state. i mean, this is something that the west has talked about since the middle of the cold war. go back to helsinki. okay. but it's not a, there's only security for certain countries and russia, china, india,

others are saying, no, we're not part of your nato world. your fever dream, that security is indivisible for all countries. and unfortunately, ukraine is getting the short end of the stick. go ahead, daniel. you know us, max made a good point in the sense that the west can't afford to lose. and that's a very shocking thing when you think about it, because that what, why, why is that? why can the west not afford to lose? what is the prize here? as you pointed out in your opening, peter, the us and its allies never had the intention of allowing ukraine to come in. that was never the point, the point of the egging ukraine on in such a cynical. and i would say murderous manner is using ukraine is a cat's paw to try to regime change russia. that's the big prize. or there's nothing to be gained for the u. s. or for the west, or in quote unquote, a victory on the battlefield. because ukraine will still not be a member of nato, and if it is, it will be kind of

a half ass neighbor and member of nato. so the question is, why are they doing this? why has they pushed this? why did they ignore the december letter? that was sent to secretary blinking. why did they laugh in their face? and it's, it's a massive, massive miscalculation on the part of the west. it doesn't mean they will not have some kind of victory or that they will not hurt russia. but the question again at the end of the day is why, why are they doing this? why have they pushed ukraine into this position yet? because ted, ted, i'm glad you mentioned your prior experience. a, as a foreign service officer. i mean, i'm not allowing the deal with the west must win. and this is this, this mantra here. but that to find that to it doesn't take into consideration the geopolitical interests of other countries. i mean, the u. s. person pursues a universal isic ideology. well, that's all fine, i guess for the u. s. and its allies, but it doesn't make any sense why everyone else must accepted it. we'll one size fits all that is not acceptable for the majority of the world. the way western

media presented it is. this is a global thing that's, it's far from that. go ahead, ted. well, 1st a quick point on ukrainian democracy. it didn't seem to bother anyone in 2013, when it was unilaterally abrogated. it seems like ukrainian democracy only matters when there's someone in the presidency who's very much opposed to the russian federation. but to your other point, i'm, i'm a realist. i've always been a realist. some of my great heroes were foreign service. realists like george canon, i was probably known as the father and the author of the containment strategy when he was smart enough to realize that caulking your gun and then soviet union was probably nothing the way the best way to get past world war 2 and one piece and so instead he said, well, you know, let's get it a lion circle and politically, what's not, shoot, let's make sure they don't shoot. and that to me was deformity at its finest events

. they were worried about an expansion of soviet union. they did something that didn't involve pointing to many gun. they pointed missiles, which is another topic, again for another shout. but in the end diplomacy, one out there was no shooting war between the soviet union and nato. the problem started pretty much the minute that the soviet union fell apart. and you had george kennan. yes, honing the new york times in 1998. yet nato eastward was a bad idea whose time should never come and that it would lead eventually to problems. and here we are. and here we are in o maxime. it all through this here. what is nato really shown for itself? here to me, it's a paper tiger with paper clips. ok, because nato didn't deter russia. he, for the longest, no rush is not the adversary. you know, even it's, we're expanding security and all that. but they ended up being completely hollow. it was directed against russia. they wanted to europe without russia. and you

cannot have european security without russia. they have failed on all counts. okay, go ahead. maxine, oh, it may be a paper tiger but a smart enough to not staying in a direct conflict with russia on the one. on the other hand, i think right now it strategy and really, you know, saying need to understand in moscow is that use them for the united states and who is being a no contributions to the alliance. and here i think the problem is that this is really now a strategy to assign resources, a bank account, some assets on the one hand. on the other hand, you continue to supply all kinds of weapons to ukraine, turn it into some kind of somali land or a fail state, requires

a republic that would continue to be a threat to the neighboring countries, including european congress, really not just rush budget for men dismantled to, to maintain your presence, to support your military. no, industrial, complex, whole kinds of things. so for now, i think need to turn into some type of conflict with russia, the leaves that can sustain. and russia cannot. and, you know, in syria, it was russia with syria here in this conflict. there is no one to help russia, except perhaps for the people who understand where things stand in the countries that would love to stand up to their own business. see, we don't want to say the world is against russia. entirely true because it's mostly in the western world and the rest of the world for now, even though they're being under tremendous pressure from other countries. for now, many countries have showed interest in continuing to pursue their own interest. you know, some countries are thinking about trading bilateral terms. is things like this. so

i think it's still hard, it's an open ended up. yeah. i, it is range. and this whole discussion about swift and all of this, but actually what ebay it ends up doing as a continues the d dollarization of the global economy and loop and let and lessening the value of the you. i saw it is really a self inflicted wounds. but because every would be the emotions rule right now. not reason, unfortunately, or i gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here way to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the situation in ukraine. stay with our case. people who are all those driven by dreamers shaped banks, concur some of those with

dares sinks, we dare to ask ah, with industry to restock and just look up some of normally a muscle is around noon. she kitty doesn't being an exemption on a nice to me as possible. mama cooked as gosh, 6 critic, somebody tim cutter to his ashley of at least one of the most of the biggest pieces goes down to copy of the bubbles wonder pieces. but of course zation did, did you bring out an up of the key for the chima primes can not work for phones the

right, something like that weaker at that point there was a great lisa. ah, welcome back to cross like where all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the situation in ukraine. ah okay, let's go back to genuine in lake jackson, m. as we're convening here, there is a, it's in news is broken that down north stream to the company that is running it. at least it's administrative part is laid off its employees and may apply for bankruptcy. who wins when this happens, daniel? well, certainly not. the german people will be interesting to see what the political fallout will be for the just breaking in new german chancellor,

who's shown himself to be even more hawkish than his predecessor, which is pretty surprising. but the shock waves were, we felt throughout europe. i think when this, when energy prices, i think of already increased by 40 percent. when trade shuts down are there's going to be a real cost to pay for this a misadventure. and it will be borne by people, as i mentioned in the beginning, for the 1st time, probably ever, directly. we always have inflation, which is a hidden tax, which is the burden of the u. s. military empire. and americans don't necessarily feel it directly or they don't sense it. but i think this will have a more direct impact. and we'll see at the end of the day when the bumper stickers have been peeled off, the cars when people have taken the i heart ukraine off of their facebook feeling like they're great warriors for this great downtrodden country. when all that is said and done, we'll see what happens. you know, you know, ted, it, it's never really been about ukraine, has it in, in the, in because you know, i have been to ukraine many, many times i've,

i've studied the country's history and whatnot, particularly in the more it's most a recent history. and when i look at the commentary, supposedly from smart people, they really don't know anything about the country whatsoever. as you pointed out in your 1st answer here, i mean, zalinski is making a product of what was a coup against a democratically elected government. okay? and as you know, before hostilities started a major paula opposition, figures were under house arrest being the but tried for treason. and you have major news outlets are being shut down, left, right, and center. the you at the u. s. state department actually cheering it on calling it courageous. shut down, free media. okay. it's not about ukraine. it's a cudgel ukraine. it's a cudgel. and at the end of the day, it will just, it would have served its purpose. it's never going to be in nato. it's never going to be in the you go head ted. i couldn't agree more. one of the other real is that i'm a big fan of john, there's time or been just really direct about this. and he said,

among other things that nato proved in 2014, that it had no interest in defending ukraine, or else it would have involved itself, militarily. it didn't, therefore, any future promises. eventual membership is completely hollow. they're not interested, as you say, in ukraine as you and whack moscow with and you know, i had thought we had moved beyond that phase, but as you say, the cold, the cold water is crumbling and god help us to see what's coming next. maxime, max, what is the new cold war then? i mean, because i've said now for a number of weeks at the post cold war order is over, i don't know. do we call the new cold war, or do we call it something else? ok, because it seems now for the time being maybe for a generation that's what i've said in the past year. there's a breach now between russia and the west. what does that mean for russia?

you know, i seen ha, when i, when i was looking at all the developments in the past few days of the matter were i kind of had, in my mind of what's going on in the world is kind of, i think we're experiencing the so called the shot of the future, you know, and, and what i mean by that is that everyone had a certain vision for how things will develop in the future. like we have in madison on the one hand, in china. the other hand, in old countries are kind of trying to find the spotting between what it looks now is indeed i want to say agree with the end of the post cold war. and the beginning of something new appears to be dramatically different from what we thought that would be even best suite. because we're seeing a dramatic deep look form or an attempt to dramatically deep look for russia from every single, you know, political, economic, and social institution. how they're less dominated, but at the same time, i my view in the low wrong, even in the mid week in this institutions. for now,

we know in a few days that we've seen this conflict, the biggest winner so far in my opinion, are united states and china. and you know, what, what will happen to russia in europe is, is a big well known to me personally. but i think it, at the end of the conflict, no matter how and, and who is of the biggest loser, the west globally loses, because it loses a certain big chunk of its culture, of its history. intentionally not just loses a just rejecting in this cultural denial that they talked about is now seen i was local scale and i think it will hurt west a lot of russia to i'm pretty sure about that. yeah. but, you know, yes, i mean, i obviously there, there know, and then there are consequences for russia, obviously. okay. i live here. i know what's going on with the russian rouble. so do

you, my friend? all right. you know, but daniel, i think one in the longer term, right. the, i truly believe that russia is going to survive all of this. okay. america cutting off from a lot of the western culture and stuff like that is perfectly fine with me. i don't, i'm not interested in all that kind of nonsense as woke ism and stuff like that. but i think, or some of the, it's the europeans because the europeans have shown themselves to be feckless and powerless over their own destiny. still 75 years after the 2nd world war and they won't even stand up for their own. i am energy security here. i mean, as we speak right now, the, the, their, their storage levels are, it's a historic lows and they're going to have a lot of problems filling them up for the next winter here. but they're not interested in their own sovereignty. they're more interested in genuflect being and things like that to the united states. the europe is going to suffer for this here . okay. they, they basically have had stagflation for a, for a decade. it's only going to get worse. go ahead, daniel. well as the head of m,

i 6 said yesterday, i think it was, this is a war for l g b t q writes, it's an amazing thing for the head of british intelligence to frame it in that way . so we book isn't, yeah, it's woke, isn't it the highest level. but what's shocking peter here in the united states is the level of hysteria, the level of absolute ferociousness against anyone who might question that, you know, i was on capitol hill working for dr. paul, in 2002 when the iraq war was coming. and of course he was called everything from a, from a saddam lover to a terrorist lover. it's a different world now. it's much worse than that. my good friend, colonel douglas macgregor, was on fox news and simply gave a dispassionate assessment of the battlefield situation in ukraine, which in fact is accurate and will be accurate. and russia will win the military conflict, but simply pointing out the battlefield situation. this is the person who writes books on military strategy. fox news felt it necessary to have

a correspondent come on after him and say, i just have to correct that previous speaker. this is a person that's not fit to do such a thing. so the propaganda level is amazing, but this is a perfect storm in america. that's where the propaganda is insane. because the russia gators who they are. exactly, russia has made trump president, control everything even the day and night, they feel vindicated. now see, we told you the whole thing is real, our lord is coming, but then you have the right wingers biden is weak. if i had been so weak, russia never would have done this. this is a perfect storm of left wingers and right wingers, neil collins and left neocons and the strangle hold on speech. here in the united states, i have never seen anything like it. you know, ted, i was thinking exactly the same thing is that, you know, it particularly on cable tv, you know, its about scoring points for your team. and it's all about how you feel about trump,

or, or biden. and you know, ukraine is put no to all of it. ok, because they're not interested in ukraine. they're interested in scoring points and they're interested in preserving their ideological outlook. go ahead 10. i couldn't agree more. i couldn't agree more. and you look at the headlines, for example, in new york times, and it accuses president of engaging in conspiracy theory. when he talks about the last remarks at the munich security conference this year, when he said that he was going to revisit the budapest men or memorandum on the dean nuclear ization of ukraine, which is, i mean, that's a cause is spell i right there. i'm sorry, that is a legitimate concern for a government on their border. and president was very clearly listening when he said that. but according to the times that makes a conspiracy, the only problem here is that people forget that not only is security indivisible. so his credibility and the new york times also said that people who were saying

that there was anything other than a natural origin for stars coby, to work conspiracy theorists. until a few months later, they had to admit, well, actually it looks like it came out of a lab somewhere. you know, a maxime and this is all said and done. it will. all, it will, at least in the west, will all be about domestic politics. i mean, you have the, the british foreign minister, she comes here and she basically backstab sir boss. i mean, it was all about her own career about politics in the u. k. i had really nothing to do with russia. she was completely unprepared. she didn't know what she was talking about, didn't even know the geography of russia. it's all about scoring points for your team. and again, pursuing this ideology ahead max. while i read about the rest, the politics, the problem with that is that the routines and non to americans in that sense, is not a cute and for a little while,

and especially are ph. and in the last, the legion thinking, it will just remain in economic domains and will not spill over to other domains, i think is a tremendous mistake. and the problem is, if it does go out to military doreen, it's not gonna be just another war. a west is going to watch on youtube and follow on twitter. it will dramatically changed the way of life that people are used to, and it actually is a factor of the life in talk about gasoline prices, but of just the beginning of a massive crisis. so, you know, it may be very different from what we've seen in the beginning. if it continues on, you know, you know, i daniel in the name of protecting ukraine, so called democracy. and the american political elites are destroying democracy at home. 10 seconds, go ahead. they are and how short the memories are,

the united states bond yugoslavia, serbia, for $78.00 days straight. they bomb baghdad or 40 days straight. they destroyed the entire infrastructure, the country they destroyed, the water supply. nobody's talking about a car to leads, rights was on fox news. and the fox news anchor said, what, when you invade a current, a sovereign country, that's a war crime, isn't it? and she just stood there and smiled and shook her head. this is the world that we live in. it's a world of our own creation. yeah. okay. no introspection, no honesty whatsoever. it's completely exhausted. okay, i gentlemen, that's all the time we have many, thanks am i get some tens mania like jackson and here in moscow. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember, cross tough rolls. ah ah

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