ah, ah ah ah ah hello and welcome to crosstalk, where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. the massive sanctions war against russia is having a profound impact on the global economy. instead of just punishing russian citizens . consumers in the west and the developing world will also experience economic pain . globalization itself is being interrupted. the great separation is upon us. ah,

cross stocking, globalization interrupted, i am joined by my guest. analysts are in new york. he is a journalist, an author of 3 books on the u. s. constitution, also new york. we have michael hudson. he is a professor of economics at the university of missouri, kansas city, as well as author forgive them their debts and in prague we have brad blankenship. he is a columnist at c g t n, a freelance reporter for should y, as well as an r t contributor or a gentleman cross that grows in effect. that means you can jump in any time you want, and i will appreciate it, michael, let me go to you 1st in new york. this is the 1st time in history, the global reserve currency. the dollar is being used as a weapon against the g. 20 country, what is the significance of that? well, i think it's trying to speed that part in guest since america one of gold and 1971 . it's been the great beneficiary, other countries holding their reserves in dollars. that meant when the banks in europe are even russia, old dollars,

they buy us treasury bills and essentially they're lending their money to the us treasury, supporting the dollar and the balance of payments. and now that's what is enabled america to afford trade deficit. and it's military deficit all over the world. well now the americans isolating other countries from the dollar is losing the whole free lunch that it's been getting for the last 50 years. and it's telling other countries, if we don't like what you're doing, we can do what we did was i can't stand, we can just grab all your money and or we can do what england and venezuela's gold . and we can say that all the way from the country to elected their own leader, if their leader does something that the united states doesn't the, let's give it to a leader that we approve of. so all of a sudden other countries are afraid not only to keep their international reserves and dollars their trade even to do trade denominated in dollars. and most oil trade

is always been denominated dollars, because all of the sudden the united states can say we're, we're, we're going to block you from getting a payment. we don't like what you're doing and we're not going to you momentarily. we're just going to block. you're doing any business to get something you need. we need a strangle hold over you. because if we don't have that, we feel insecure. we feel under attack, if we can't control who's running your government and if we can't control your trade. so they put a block on, on the dollar, and this is created and block and trade patterns. if countries can do their trade in dollars or without western europe and america, they're going to trade with each other. well america. but then the u. s. is not a net benefit beneficiary of this type of policy. let me go to daniel here. i mean, i'm calling this, this program a great separation. and this is what's happening here. the, the, the, the financial markets being, you know, it basically it's, it's the u. s. picking winners and losers, and that's not what

a fee hot currency is supposed to do. ok, i don't know why anybody would want to hold on to dollars here. and it, it, it'd be a demonstration effect for other others around the world where if they want, they, if they were going to choose their own kind of economic sovereignty, they're gonna have to look over their shoulder. you know, this isn't for me, this is so short sighted a theat currency should be not politicized, and it's getting worse and worse. and the chinese obviously are watching very carefully on how these sanctions are being applied to russia. having said that gentleman, ever since 2014 rush has been preparing for a day like this, go ahead, daniel. i agreement the farthest china. i would be very, very worried. i mean, i had the usaa could turn these that tools around and apply them to china's, well, if china also somehow steps out of line, sorry. and so this where i was, so if they yes we're, this was, i was china. i would be extremely concerned as to where this is all going and the,

and the revelling powers of the us cecily wielding over the international financial markets and international trade. it's really, it's, i really am very ominous development. you know, brad, it seems to me the more the u. s. in its allies, what am maintain, it's a gemini in the world, the more they lose it because the merriment when they're most valuable tools has been the dollar and the financial system that it created. now, if it's going to be used this way, more and more people will obviously want to move away from it. i mean, if you're being told that you can't trade because of and other countries behavior, you're going to start thinking twice here. and i've been looking at this great separation for quite a few years now we're talking about financially, but it's happening in other ways as well. and you know, there's going to be where i think we're coming back to a bipolar world. that it's going to be a russia, china, and regions, and it's going to be the u. s. in its allies. we're gonna have separate internet

separate banking system. there won't be as much conductivity. we're going into a very different world. your thoughts, brad? go ahead. well i thought that recently this week, john merch time or had a very illuminating interview with the new yorker when directly about this. i don't think that we're moving into necessarily a bipolar world because i know it's true that russia and china are joining together . i see them as rather distinct. and i also think that russian leadership doesn't want to be hard to agree. i agree, so that from that perspective, with the united states, if it wants to maintain its head you money, or compete with basing should be trying to take russia away from china and its actions continue to push russia closer to china. in fact, a west mitchell who is under secretary state for your asian affairs, articulated this and pentagon report. and he said, actually that united states need to provide carrots on his stick to make russia and

try to compete against each other. and that is the exact opposite of what's happening right now. everything that they're doing is pushing china and russia closer together, especially unplugging, russia from swift. this is the 1st thing you know, rush has been developing its own alternative. and so it's china. and though i think that the, the ability for them to replace that is a bit overstated at times the fact that it's happening in the fact that, you know, the direction is going that way is, is very problematic for us dollar mon, i also think, for example, i've seen today that the u. s. is mulling over sanctions against india. yes. for trading with russia, that would destroy the u. s. in the pacific strategy trying to leverage its relationship, india to isolate china. and the thing is, is that we're talking so much about how the world is against russia right now. but if you look at the un resolution that was passed, most of the countries didn't say anything. yeah. and mostly, if you look at, for example, pakistan, india, brazil, china,

that alone is more people in the world than the western countries in america that are trying to russia and it will in fact, as you said, create this bifurcated world, you know, michael, one of the things i find very interesting is that it, washington and its allies and punishing russia for its military operation in ukraine. is that they think that they, that they're going to have some kind of for now they some kind of an game here. but it seems to me that the sanctions here there to say it's a, it's a message, the russian, other countries like and say, you know, we're done with you people, okay. you say this is temporary change, your behavior will let you back into the club. i'll let you sit at the table. i think it's one way. it's a one way direction right now it's a done with you. people here, you know, nord stream to you, asked russia to build it. we built it and then you don't want it. okay, why should we deal with you people? you people are not serious, michael? well, these sanctions are not mainly against russia. they're mainly against europe. the sanction? yes, yes,

exactly. america wants to hold here in the us orbit. the sanctions or the iron curtain to lock here in the u. s. is not to exclude russia. america just wants to control europe and it wants to control the world oil trade, because that's the key to it's a international power it's, it's forcing europe in germany to pay huge amount of a for a gas. huge amounts to buy american liquefied natural gas, not russian gas. this is going to, in germany, is a major international manufacturing. our germany's cost structure is going to go up . so hi, this going to political break away. so ultimately, the question is, will america sanctions dr. europe, out of the american orbit, just like striving out russia out of the well, yeah. let me, let me get a daniel on that. i mean that,

that's probably the biggest surprise or disappointment for me is because of all countries in europe. germany could have sit up and said, hey, hey, everybody needs to slow down right now, because it's the, it's the engine to be konami growth in europe in. i can, you know, i can see how the americans want to maintain it and exclude russia. but it's kind of a cheap consolation prize because you're going to get, you know, if europe isn't dynamic, then what's it worth? go ahead. oh yeah, but let's, let's be realistic here. i mean, i'm in russia by mounting this vision essentially has done web to have with brad, could have done, which is to unified data. so essentially this, this, this unification now is imposed by the war. or, you know, i mean, i oppose it a couple of weeks ago, germany was giving signs of going its own way, was resisting pressure, the close down word string to now with that word, germany was flowing into line of the rest of the e u. and of course, great britain,

australia, etc, etc, are as well so, so, i mean, so essentially, jen bryant is a bill yet over what's happened because, you know, with a centrally he is achieved the unification that was previously so elusive, increasingly elusive in fact. but i'm like, do you think they understand the cost? i mean look at the they could the price structure of energy right now. i mean it's really easy dino, to stand up and say, this is terrible, it's wrong and all that. but when you said, you know, in the next day you begin to realize what it's going to cost. you know, i, i think that there's a big, a division between what your heart is telling you and what your brain is going to tell you later. because europe is going to suffer quite so strenuously after this. i mean, 1st of all, i don't see a return on the, i think i said there's one direction. there's not going to be any mending offenses and there's going to be a lot of restructuring on, on all sides here. michael, them, you know you real quick here before we go to the break,

you're nodding your head, that's what i'm going to go ahead. i'm just not again agree in agreement that it says if america is shooting, it's open the book as they say it is trying to bully europe into dependency on the united states. and in a certain point are the leaders of europe are also pro american. they're on the american a role virtually. but how long can you fool the borders of europe? and they realize why we don't. why can't we have leaders who are promoting our own economy rather than helping i jump in here, gentlemen, me to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on globalization interrupted. stay with ah,

tonight is full. your book book was atc a still open. yeah. so can scott out with the sports, what's kinda bored with the way, would it be a good a good huge. but you're more difficult to set up on a bus for the day of school. so that then you shouldn't have been really well. yes, you said well, why don't you need it? but if you're what potential pushes you can push. yeah. get some push a somebody see wayne lee,

but i do it on them by ah with welcome back across the top where all things are considered. i'm p lavelle to

remind you we're discussing. globalization interrupted, ah, ah, okay, let's go back to brad in, in prague. here. we've already mentioned a little bit in this program about china's reaction here. it seems to me that the way the, the chinese are watching the, what's going on with the sanctioning of the russian economy is it could be a potential dry run against them. what do you think lessons that they're learning from this here? and obviously you're not speaking for the chinese go ahead. right. so 1st of all, i think that they are realizing very quickly that they, you know, even if they want to stake out a neutral position, they are going to be brought into it. because for example, recently the new york times did an article saying that the chinese knew about the russian invasion and asked who to personally or but they, russian officials to postpone the invasion of ukraine. and so after the olympic

game before all of this took place, we saw that the americans were reaching out to china in an effort to try to calm the situation. so there's kind of this idea that that china is pulling the strings, of course paging denies. but i think that this is really just an attempt to tie all of russia actions to china in an effort to degrade china's reputation in the international state, even though it has always consistently taken an online mission. and then in terms of what's happening with essentially, this is very, very important, of course. and so i think that they're really paying attention to maybe not the reaction in the west because that's to be expected, right? but the reaction in, especially the global south, very important global south countries like india, brazil, for example, countries in the middle east. and i think that they're really looking at this. and

you know, if you, for example, if you go and chinese social media or perhaps any stuff from the west, you can really get the idea that people have a nuance take of this. people aren't so polarized as they are in the west where you have to believe that hitler and this man. and then, you know, of course, russia has its own opinion there that you know, claims the west for the whole situation. but i think people around the world are that are not in these countries. that is the majority of people in the world are looking at this. like yeah, that could have been avoidable. our hearts are, you know, with the people of ukraine. but of course, we principally stand against nato's aggression. that is what this point. it's a very good point here, daniel. you know, if we look at, we prices going up dramatically here. obviously rush is a very important export. a lot of people don't know that, but it's a largest exporter of wheat and grain in the world of ukraine is not too far behind . and i don't think they're going to be exporting much grain in the, in the near future. unfortunately for them. but the people to get hit the most by it are the poor countries in the world. you know, they, these, you know, these,

these laser folk focus sanctions and, you know, all that i personally attached to it. this is, has a much greater ripple effect. we've seen like countries like the raton, being sanctioned. go ahead. oh, that's our data. the collector, i mean, inflation is getting a major push from these sanctions are, there's no doubt, certainly the energy prices, energy prices, earth are skyrocketing. that'll certainly hit the global south. very, very hard, and we'll have germany that europe and hit the u. s as well. i'm in the u. s. as my husband was member important that price gauge in the u. s. and gasoline and gasoline is the shooting upwards of that is, you know, that is something that hits every american in the pocketbook and makes them very angry and does not all grow well for the democrats that chances this coming november. i say yes, this is going to have a major impact. i mean,

i think the global economy is going to take a huge hit from this from this and will be really driven downward across the board. here michael, i mean if you look at like the arab spring or what i call the sunni winter and you know, grain prices late a very important role in the instability of that region here. and now we're seeing and again, and considering the what would cove it did and global trade. and now you throw this on here. i mean, you have some of these economies just barely recovering. and now this is a double whammy on top of them. and of course, you know, i want to keep stressing the europeans are going to feel this to, with energy prices here. so there's a cascade effect all the re, well, go ahead. well, you're right in bringing up hood, which is already made many of the 3rd world countries of global south countries strap. what this means is they're already unable either foreign deaths and especially with higher food import prices and higher energy prices. there's going

to be debt defaults, and that's going to have a repercussions all down the financial system apart from the trade system. and it's going to affect us bondholders. it will affect us banks. and basically, it's going to force, or i think the 3rd world in asian, and here's an opening for china and russia. they're put in an alternative to the international monetary fund and the debt. so this is, this is just opening them to say, look, this system that's driving your bankrupt is bankrupting you. so american can come in and grab your raw materials, privatize your industries. there is another way of organizing the world and that ukraine or is really about another way of organizing the world economy and the world. you know, brad, the, i've been a number of programs on the world beyond the west and, you know, and i'm talking about the great separation here. just like echo what michael was saying here. the financial institutions that are controlled by the west,

primarily the united states. they don't seem to be servicing all people are necessarily only they to specific political aims of the united states and its allies. this is another good reason to go beyond the west. go ahead, brad. well, even before this situation with ukraine, we already saw that the bad decision to raise rates was going to essentially, artificially induced a recession to have to hold inflation, which would put people out of work and create even more suffering, not only in the united states, but particularly in the developing world this would get people more than that. and even president chinese president, she, she thing was, were, were warning about that the world economic forum. so for sure. i mean, i think that people understand, i think, since the 2000 and the financial crisis, people have understood that, you know, the people that are managing the american economy or not, let's say the most savvy individuals. and they're certainly not looking after everybody's best interests. and i think that this is probably another example that

you said, yeah, you know, this war is a tragedy. it truly is it, it is terrible. but you know, it's going to cause a lot of suffering for other people. i don't mean to take away from what people are going through, but this is going to affect the entire world. this is going to affect, certainly hundreds of millions of people in russia as it already is. but also around the world. i think it's something that these countries, particularly in europe don't understand, like they just principally do not understand that their actions will have very dire consequences for the world. it will stabilize the world. and i'm very afraid that there are many liberal internationalists that actually once that, particularly with russia, they believe that causing harm to the russian. people is going to create a situation where there could be regime regime change in russia. and that is a mind blowing lea silly thing to pursue at this time. you know, i, i think that yeah, i mean you're absolutely, i mean a brad, i mean that's a fever dream. i know that that's a dream that so many people have in washington and around washington. that's how

they make their living. ok, i mean, you know, what's the next plan to destabilize the next country. ok. but dant mcdaniel, you know what, what do you think? is there a great separation going on? am i exaggerating this? is there too much to it because it seems to me that they i got repeating myself a little bit, but you know, they apply these sanctions to see if they can get a positive reaction as they see it. and if they don't get it, they imply more sanctions. and then you get to a point, well, why have any interaction whatsoever? there's business elsewhere, you know, and russian energy, it's in demand all around the world. ok? it's not in europe is you know, that that's not their only point of destination. i mean, the, i think what this fever, dream of, you know, crushing russia is. that's what it is. it's a fever dream. daniel. well, i mean, 1st of all, calling it a close, sat great separation. it's almost too kind, i mean, but when the separation they want to move in for the kill and 1997 and as best seller. the grand chessboard adds briggs goodner,

rab regency club for ringing russia. we live with a s, a series of hostile states. the ukraine 1st and foremost, and then breaking it up into 3 parts. a european, russia, iberian russia, far eastern russia. well, yes, what i mean, the opportunity 25 years later is now upon that. i was thinking had regime change in russia, which they're certainly hoping for then they can move for the actual physical breakup of russia. that is what is on the agenda here. i think it's no doubt about that. yeah. and said, yeah, you know what i can take from that michael, in, in doing so, the european union will collapse. ok, and nato will have shown itself to be a paper tiger that this is something they're chewing on that they're not going to be able to digest my opinion. michael, go ahead. well, apart from being a paper tiger, it's obvious that nato was not offensive. no,

no country is going to invade any other major country anymore. nato is an offensive organization. and the question is, does he want to be part of an american fence and get involved in afghanistan in the near east and in africa that the united states are setting up the fight under that chinese there. so all of a sudden it is you're going to remember to rise, well, germany's re militarized thing. and even though it's running into a depression, it's increased, it's military spending to more than 2 percent of g d. p, as in effect, europe is acting as if nato is running its foreign policy and domestic policy and nato's following us policy. so at a certain point, the nationalistic parties that in europe on the right are leading or the let me let me finish with brad in prague. you just heard michael,

that did anyone in the european union vote for that agenda one minute to brad? you know, i just really hope that the liberal internationalists don't have their way. and as there's piece talks right now and people are pushing for diplomatic solutions, conflict, i just hope that people give russia a viable off ramp that could include rethinking unplugging, russia from swift, rethinking the sanctions, the asset seizures, rethinking the racist policies against russian people. and, you know, bringing ukraine's political neutrality on the table. i really hope that we can have that conversation that we can put it ended up grabbing, grabs to get, you know, but brad, everything you said is very reasonable in all of those things were on the agenda for months as it's crisis brewed. ok, it was all on the agenda and no one in the west wanted to listen. and here we are. it's tragic or i gentlemen, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests in new york, prague, and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t. c. you next time and remember process rules.

what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race group is on often very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk with industry to restore. just work up some literally a muscle around noon. she doesn't being in the green shield on obnoxious to me as

possible. mama cook gas. gosh, said critic. somebody to look up to his ashley. uh, this is one of the pieces goes down to come here from one to 3, if this sort of cool position to pick it up. when you open up the key for the cima bryant's to metal for furnished or something like that. and then we got at that point that that might be worth it. i have some great news to have that. oh, is your media a reflection of reality? in the world transformed watch will make you feel safer. isolation for community. are you going the right way,

or are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? wharf is great. in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join and the dead. oh, remain in the shallows. ah oh, when i was sure seemed wrong when i was just a shape out this day because the answer came and engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves well to part, we choose to look for common ground.

with rushes, defense ministry claims that the military provocation that ends up our osha nuclear power plant. when the parents attend by ukrainian force is to blame russia for creating a radio active halt bed dust off the sabotage group, allegedly attached to the russian control plans overnight. amid battles between the ukrainian albion local militia forces homes in little guns, candidates republic circles in the crossfire made to supply people who desperately need that food, rushes, dogs, applying humanitarian aid to the city of melody. all poland, arts. he speaks to some of the people on the ground also.