prime minister, winston churchill made his famous iron curtain speech to the usa in which he warned against the spread of soviet communism. now let's go straight to washington d. c. to speak to the usa, former un ambassador, and president all trump's national security advisor, john bolton, for this very special edition of going underground. ambassador, thanks so much for coming back on. so joe biden ended his say to the union with the woods, get him in the style of a previous officials against some amend loudon. perhaps he spending the weekend at camp david viewers still national security advisor. what would you would be telling joe biden to do? well, i'd be saying that until the russian energy sector is effectively collapsed, at putin has no incentive to give up his ongoing offensive in ukraine. and honestly, with oil prices, what they are, even if russia has to sell a discount, it's still making money off this war and, and ever it,

there's every reason to think, he'll continue until he achieves what, whatever his objectives, ukraine are. you know, the failure here is not, is not that we're not imposing sanctions on food. the failure is we failed to turn . and the cost of that failure is now being borne by the ukranian people and it will be borne by russians. and by the way, it will be borne by europeans and americans too. as the price oil goes up. so is so being content with a long dragged out process is not, is not in our interest. so on from your point of view, this war is being financed in effect by europeans buying russian energy resources that supply 40 percent of the market. right. i mean, right now, as the war's progressing, oil and gas are still being transmitted through pipelines all across europe. and russia is being reimbursed for them despite sanctions to take some russian banks out of the swift system. 2 of the 3 top russian banks are still receiving payments

because their energy related the united states is still importing oil from russia. really, pretty incredible. and in the meantime, the russian military, which has had its problems that ukraine is grinding down opposition and even car key and ukrainians have defended themselves heroically. but the correlation of forces used to say in soviet days, very much against them and time will not be on their side. yeah, get to the war in the 2nd. i mean, russia says it's all going to plan of goes as you'd expect. but as regards the energy resources, what did you make us a level of saying americans are dictating to the germans. what is good for european energy security? and then they're trying to impose their own view of the future of europe, napoleon and hitler, they had the objective to have the whole of europe under their control. now americans have got europe under control. you think they're listening to what level is saying, which is why they're not listening to you? i doubt it because i don't think the americans really care about having europe

under control. frankly. i think what we're telling germany and others in europe now is exactly what ronald reagan told margaret thatcher and other european leaders in the 1980s do not become totally dependent on russian oil and gas. and for all we can tell the new german chancellor has just agreed with that. so, but it takes time to shift it to build offloading facilities for liquefied natural gas to construct new pipelines. you know, it should be common sense to the europeans that you want multiple potential suppliers for your energy resources. and i think they've now learned that less you just said americans don't care whether they control europe. obviously, the u. s. by clearly cared about influencing europe for decades and all this, he will have a measure of control of liquefied natural gas comes from the united states to rule on rule of port structures that are rapidly being created on in europe. well, what we're concerned about in europe is the security and safety of the united

states. and since 1945, we believe that a secure europe is in america's best interest. but frankly, what goes on in europe. beyond that, that is really not something that most americans care about because they don't really care about about these kinds of things. other parts of the world, we would like to be safe and secure. and that means making sure the europeans don't lapse into yet another world war like the 1st 2 hot boars and much of the cold war fought europe as well. yeah, but i mean, is the united states has been funding ukraine for well, since the 2014, since the coo, i mean, you can see that there are 2 sides being given on the story. one site is rusher is trying to end the brutal put regime from 2014 financed by the united states in the heart of europe. so it can no longer kill people. they're 14000 dead. but that's the hall of mirrors view of what happened in ukraine in 2014. and unfortunately

it's the ukraine, people who are paying for that misperception. so what is the price that by doing a name check to the say to the union, he said, pigeon must pay a price. what is the price that will maybe maybe jake sullivan and anthony blinking went to charge proven well, i don't think they know. i mean, if you, if you are concerned about the war that's being conducted in ukraine now, you should have been more concerned about it before it start. because every day that goes by, the cost of the work goes up and i think what it is counting on and he may be right, is whenever this ends and almost however it ends, he's counting on european memories to be sure. and for the sang to this is here, and i have to say based on the history we've seen, i'm not counting on european resolved to keep the sanctions in place. that's the play that, that potent has made. and as he said to me on several occasions, you have your logic, we have our logic will see which one prevails. wait,

so i mean, i'm going to defend biden, i suppose, in his team. there they, they were, they were warning. and us intelligence which has to gain such a lack of respect, obviously since iraq, they did successfully warn, didn't make this time read, but they fail. you know, deterrence is not intended to equate the failure of the charge with the punishment that comes later success in constructing structures of the turns is to make sure the war doesn't happen and those fail. so obviously all of the messages being sent to put were not sufficient. and you and back to what you were just saying about sanctions. you do expect to exit to lapse very swiftly would after a completion of military operations as seen for moscow and mission accomplish, statement from boot in the gremlin. look my prediction. i've been making it for months. i might as well keep making it now. it can't, it can't get any better. any worse is,

i don't think potent wants all of ukraine under russian control. i think he wants the eastern and southern parts of the country wants control of the north coast of the black sea. and i think if he, if he had his brothers, he'd set up a v. c. france kind of government in the rest of ukraine. he may not be able to get that, but if he all controls the eastern southern parts of the country, i think a lot of europeans and honestly, a lot of americans would say is that all j could have been a lot worse. let's go back to business as usual. well, because in pod, i mean you may not like it, but the pol in pod oversee. there's this fear of a nuclear war which is kept on cropping up even on major news. bulletins. i mean, is he only here who clear war here is because food and said he was changing the alert status of russia. nuclear forces, i think whenever somebody does that, you have to take it seriously. but you also have to try and analyze it objectively . i think it's a bluff intended to intimidate some rosters and he has succeeded in part,

but i don't think it's a serious threat. secretary general of nato basically said the same thing, wasn't it? when president zalinski said he was gonna have to reevaluate the nuclear bombs of positioning because of the creation of ukraine and the destruction of the nuclear weapons. we were drawing of their nuclear weapons as gated on ukraine being a whole state. well, i think there is a little bit of misinformation in history here though, those were always soviet nuclear weapons. they were never under keeps command and control. but i think what he is reflecting properly is the great powers gave you crane assurance of the territorial integrity of the state, which is obviously been breached by one of the signatory parties to the treaty. namely, russia. can you understand why in most of the world, despite the international community clearly being with the usa and it's cassini, albania, the un general assembly, most of the world could be forgiven for thinking that the fear of nuclear weapons

means that in effect, nato is using ukraine against russia, while refusing to fight against russia in the actual theater of war pouring in weapons to a country which does not have the military capacity to defeat russia. i don't know for what particular reason, because obviously it's going to prolong the war and prolong the number of casualty reports daily. well, had it been done properly by the biden administration, with which it wasn't the supply of weapons, adequate training and the weapons used to the weapons would have been intended to raise the human cost to the russian government for any invasion. and that should cause deterrence. but i don't think enough weapons were shipped in. i don't think we put enough u. s. and nato trainers. and you know, we had special operations forces in ukraine working with the ukranian military. right up until a few weeks ago. and our people didn't want to leave because they could see what was going to happen. they could see this russian build up on the border and they

wanted to stay and help the ukrainians. and it's, it's a, i think, providing he faces real risks here that he goals he will be saying is having done too little too late. if russian forces continue to bomb ukrainian cities and grind down its population. but we call verify any reports, obviously about what to say in ukraine said just before the invasion and a but that again goes back to the point that the pouring in of weapons right now. once the invasion started is prolonging the war and will kill more ukrainians. and russians before the ultimate victory of russia, people believe in people believe in fighting for their independence, are obviously willing to do what it takes to, to achieve it. and it's not like there's a threat of ukraine and bating russia. i think it's pretty clear to everybody what's going on here. why do you think it was so important to for washington, even before the evasion to do that training and risk world war 3 is it now

apparently appears as a commonplace in nature, nation media. even though there is no way that ukraine could join nato because under the minsk agreement ratified by washington and london had the security council have said that the, the disputed areas of lou hands can done yet must be recognized, which would mean disputed areas, which would mean ukraine can't even join data. well, that's a crisis that russia's created by illegally crossing international boundaries and, and annex in the crimea, which the united states does recognize as ever recognize incorporation. to start a live in lithuania, into the soviet union, nato, as a defensive alliance. everybody understands that i think clearly what putin is doing. he announced in his speech to the state, duma, 2005. when he said the breakup, soviet union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe. and the 20th century that

was, that was potent view and ukraine. they were quite happy that the soviet union broke up and they're not looking to get the gang back together again. that's what this war is about. it's a war imperial conquests by a czarist president in moscow. i do think anyone recognizes nature as a defensive alliance, arguably. i know that's a talking point, repeated him to h relations, but history, my history will bear me out on that master. i'll stop you that more from the 27th national security advisor of the united states after this break ah, with what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have if treat even foundation,

let it be an arms race is on offensive, very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful. very katy killed time. time to sit down and talk with welcome back. i'm still here with the full me, usm. best of you. and on the 27th us national security advisor, john bolton, when you mentioned the imperial power, then is it the case? and we've talked to russians here and challenge them who've been so critical of u. s. foreign policy in libya. iraq, syria, enough can, has done. is it a case the russians just doing what the united states did, supported by you? and there are a parallel here, all of us interference in countries since 911th grade. right? let's take it one by one. but let's start a little earlier than 911 at the u. s. has invaded iraq twice the 1st time because

iraq invaded kuwait and in order to restore sovereignty to kuwait, we went into iraq and basically destroyed its army. now in retrospect, we probably should have done more. that's the kind of situation in which the u. s. has starkly fought. not because we want territory for ourselves, not because we seek economic advantage, but because one of our friends or allies has been invaded by somebody else, that's what's happening in ukraine today. and the difference between russian actions and us just as bad as clear as it could be. your line of argument is like the, the old saying that here you've got a, an old lady in the, near the path of a bus that's out of control. 11 man comes up to her and pushes her in the front of the bus. and another man comes up to her and pushes her away from the bus. and somebody says, well, you know, both these people are just pushing old ladies around. lo sure equate the parallel

of that one. ok, but i mean, you know that the united, i mean it does not mean that you would have supported this kind of military action or a singer, missiles and so on being sent off to the referendum that obviously was not accepted by nature, nations in crimea, recognizing the crimea was brought to russia, but what we wanted to do in crimea was work with the government of ukraine, which was not in a position to engage in any military activity in crimea after it was an ex, but through no diplomatic measures to get the russians to reverse, this is something that we said in 1945 was never going to happen in europe again, which is international borders being changed by military force. and yet that's exactly what russia did. it did it in ukraine. it didn't premier rather did it in don bass and it's doing it again now. i mean, the, to many cases, grenada, of,

i mean the so many cases of all global invasion, i'm going to write it down by the association of caribbean states because of a cuba and russian supported coo and grenada. which of course is what the, what the other, i mean, there's so many parallels here and these are the ones being argued across the global. so what about this phrase of peacekeepers? can you understand? i mean, obviously the un secretary general says this is a violation of international law, something that has been raised with previous russian actions. can you see how moscow would see this? wait a minute. we sent peacekeepers to broke a piece in the gonna carry back regina mean you're in as a by john, we ended the war in syria. we sort a ceasefire in georgia and sorted, all that out and quiet and down the georgia war, wherever we go. all we do is bring peace, it looks pretty ugly white, and happens though, that it, that involves fragmenting georgia and splitting off 2 provinces to pretend they were independent countries. it means

a russian true presence in georgia and as well as in azerbaijan and our media, that frees the conflicts, they're just like their russian troops still in moldova. and the so called trans yester republic, which i'd love to see sunday must be a bed and feet wide and it's widest. but it's a, it's this comical way of keeping russian troops and in moldova, and throughout central asia. i think be the objectives here are pretty self evident, and we're saying the most violent expression of it in ukraine today. but i think curtains, policy to recreate brushing the gemini at a minimum and the space of the former soviet union. and maybe russian sovereignty is, is completely open. so what do you think the only reason that haven't been demonstrations in trends in history or in the crimea have been the power of the russian proxy authorities? or do you actually think that those people in crimea and transmits trio and other

places of cars? you know they, they want to not be connected to moscow. i think they can see the demonstrations or anything, but certainly, well, maybe they don't want to get shot. that's always one ability, the substance of russian power and crime is undeniable. and, and i think that's, that's part of the strategy that potent has very sex successfully pursued i, i think one of his dilemmas today is this. the vaunted russian military is being humiliated and any one resigned in the line. we're only getting watch out of that story because of the russian media outlets have been banned and they took on i think we can, i think we can see from above what's going on. how soon do you expect china now to move on taiwan as you so long predicted. i've got a statement here from china's foreign ministry spokesman watch, and young taiwan is indeed naut ukraine. taiwan has always been an inseparable, bought a historical illegal fact. well, i seems to me as

a pretty clear statement, they're getting ready, and i think they're watching the u. s. and nato's response in ukraine very carefully. and if it continues to prove as ineffective, tragically as it has been so far, i think china will draw the appropriate conclusion. or do you think the u. s. compare china away from russia? he was who noticed that some of the countries receiving lots of infrastructure investment from china and his way, le cuba. they abstained on the un general assembly. i know the un general assembly thing was, was quite theatrical. the u. s. has never respected un general assembly resolutions in the bus. but what did you make of some peculiar abstentions from people, countries you'd think would vote with mosca. well, i think that then what it shows is that in this, on time between russia and china and russia very much the junior part, this is the exact reverse of cold war days and it's something i think rushes

leadership hasn't considered adequately. i've tried to explain that growing closer to china, growing further away from europe in the united states inevitably means subjugation for russia at some level. at some point. it's certainly not too late to reverse course now, but unless you want to be a part of greater china by the end of the century, i think russian needs to take another look at this. why couldn't they bring the united states closer to china, which actually help the american people? because i think china has made it pretty clear they have had germanic ambitions. and the endo pacific is why they have managed to give life to the asian quad india, japan, australia and the united states. to why the countries of the endo pacific very much want to see more evidence of, of, of a, a strong american presence in the, in the region. it's why the australians have asked for nuclear powered submarines

and we've now created a mechanism along with the united kingdom to do this. i think the people in asia and the endo pacific generally are waking up to china's aspirations and they're going to take steps to pereta from happen. but what about the american people? why, why is this a consistent theme that it must be about the into pacific? you know, 40000000, con he tonight in your country without food stamps. why kind of alliance between washington and may ging be created out of the miss that is happening right now in the you because we're afraid people in like being that way. but surely would benefit the people of the united states if business ties, economic ties can be made with a jing we, we've got to may business in economic ties with beijing. now i look, this is, this is something that they have gotten rich in china over the decades by stealing our intellectual property. people are beginning to wake up to that i, i think it's, this is something that's been growing over time and i think we're going to see

growing resistance to china's aspirations. not just in the united states, really, but around the world. but, but it's why the strategic significance of ukraine is so high. because if the west can't defend a country in the heart of europe or allies around the world are going to wonder what are staying power is a lot at stake for us here to capitalism in the free flow of trade, let alone media but free trade capitalism that 2nd place to these geo strategic concerns the, the big businesses i oversee on think i at it doesn't china. there's not free trade capitalism in china. it's a classic example of man and control economy, american capitalism and businesses in the united states. wanting to trade with chinese businesses for the mutual prosperity and, and i think more and more of them are realizing that the attendance on supply chains that had a heavy chinese component number,

very dangerous unreliable. and they're looking for other places in southeast asia, in the western hemisphere, re shoring it, as it's called to the united states itself. all of this is happening and i think it increasingly rapid pace will kill, has been historically a poor record. but you're implicitly and kind of complimenting of donald trump there, because presumably you understand that he understood that better than most. what do you think? did you think anything would have been different if trump had been empowered, he event convene to summit in geneva with fusion to sort things out. now i think the russians would have gotten control of cab about a year ago for hey, because i think tra barely knew where ukraine was on a matt, frankly. and he and his biggest concern with ukraine was finding that missing computer server for hillary clinton and determining what 100 biden's finances and ukraine were. and i think it had a negative effect on us ukrainian relations that had formed

a part of the difficult that ukraine had and trying to establish a relationship with the united states for over a year and a half. well, those on to biden claims are still making a lot of headway in the u. s. meteors, you know, as a, i can't wait to find out what the truth is on 100 biden's riches. i just can't wait . well, clearly that's how ordinary americans are even know may be about to ukraine. iran, of course, is supporting moscow, one of the global energy, super bows. you expect them now to get nuclear weapons. well, i expect to bind administration, which has been making one concession after another to iran, to do anything necessary to get back into the 2015 nuclear deal. the best i can see from an observers position is they're going to try and get back in a perhaps in next couple weeks. i think that would be a mistake. i think the 2015 deal is flawed from the beginning. hasn't gotten any better with that. with age but the by the administration determined to get in,

i think now because they want to get more oil pumped into international markets to lower gasoline prices for fear. what's gonna happen to them in the 2022 congressional elections and on the sanctions. finally, do you expect them to finish quickly or do you think that actually the grain conflict spells the end of the dollar as an international currency because of the swiftness and i use that word. swift. obviously, a ugly emphatically is at the end of the dollar based system as huge numbers of countries now sanctioned by the united states get closer and closer together to different ways of transferring money. obviously they're big crypto currency exchanges. now, one wall street and other methods which are not regulated by the federal reserve, i think actually the dollar is, is proving how important it is, how it outwardly continues to be. and i don't see any huge demand to trade in

chinese won or russian roubles as far as crypto currency goes. look, if you want to buy like tulip bulbs be my guest, and putin do you think or do you think he will have to go for nato nation countries in european union leaders to accept any reproach mall as this crisis? like all other crises, solely fates. i think too, it expects western resolve, particularly european resolves, fail sooner rather than later and to restore something approaching normality and economic relations and ultimately not pay nearly the price that people today in the west are speaking. our bet that i think is his expectation. do you think blinkin linda sullivan will accept any kind of reproachful? sure, they will. investable. thank you. thanks from thanks for adam. and that's it for the show will be back on monday. the deadline for 12 russian diplomats to leave the

u. n. a new york, after they were expelled by the united states, which accused them of spying. until then keep in touch my role as social media. if it's available in your country and use a vpn or ot dot com, if you are in media restricted europe and let us know what you think of censorship in nato nations. ah, look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except when such orders at conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. at that point, obviously is to great trust or rather than fear a various job with artificial intelligence. real, somebody with

a robot must protect its own existence with herman by dress shaped by frontier. so those with you dares sinks, we dare to ask ah

awe on november the 3rd 1945, just a month after the war ended. the u. s. joint chiefs of staff receive report number 3 to 9. select 20 targets to attack in the soviet union with nuclear bombs. the time was right. as the u. s. s. all was devastated by wal united states. last about 400000 people had the brit sloss less than the americans did. and the soviet suffered 27000000 deaths bmw 27000000 is an incredible number.