for i just before we go a word and how you can watch our tea right now around the world, because there's been one or 2 questions of i thought all the ways are laid out at r t dot com slash where to watch, including how to tune your satellite receiver to reach us. we're available in europe, africa, latin american right across the globe way to head to our website for the full time . and that is where we leave the news run up for no, but stay close has more great programs get going in moment. see what showing where you are. ah ah ah

with me. hello and welcome to over part more than a century ago, the german historian ham. paula pronounce that history doctrine recognized any if even though he can south was obsessed with finding the general laws of the historic process. the contrary, the inc, i'm over ukraine, came as a huge shock to most of us and given me imperatives and being patterns of besides involved. she is, if you really such a big surprise. well, to discuss that, i'm now joined by somebody director general of the russian international affairs council. mister question know how did you talk to you again. thank you very much for your time. welcome. now, you have all of the russian and nature tensions. why from time,

did it ever occur to you that russia could take 5 drastic actions to protect what it seems to be if national intra? no, frankly, i should tell you that i was shocked. as menu was to see the special operation of the russian federation unfold and i thought that rational cause benefit analysis would suggest that the risks too high and probably we should steal sticker to diplomacy. also, as you recall, there was a chain of higher level visits to moscow by us than statesmen. and after each show that we experts usually concluded that this is it allowed to, to keep the door for negotiations. so open because this is

a very important because many in russia, especially in the kremlin, i believe that there was use negotiations as essentially, you know, delaying or an invasion tactic. you know, it only worth keeping the door open. if you actually hold that something, they'll go through that door. yeah, i agree, this is right there. there are such sentiments and maybe there are such sentiments in their leadership. but my date is that any military action is a failure of diploma. and definitely we can argue that the west was not sincere. that's appropriate. it was sort of super critical. it was not ready to consider some of our ashes proposals in a serious way. but still, i think that most of us are shocked. and if you recall the romanian statements

in february in january that was not planned and then base mr. carson, i agree with you there. i also find the current events, indigestible, not only because of the cost of this operation to live lost in seeing sanctions, but per male primarily because of its human contact. the fact that russia has to use force against the crane. it needs a bit like acronym. sacrificing, i think, and i think for me which and given everything does he have sat and written about the russians and the ukrainians. historically being one people i think he has to overstep. major personnel, historic and perhaps even the religious tablets. you authorize those military strike on the premium infrastructure. do you believe him when he says that he has no other option? well, it seems that she's personal value system. there is something which constitutes an

existential fan to challenge to russia, not even to its security, but it's near survival. and this is something that can justify any actions we shall supposed to protect the country. i think that the president who can should be now thinking about his legacy. and i think that ukraine is one of the permanent headaches that he has. but do you know my take is the given situation as it is right now, we should probably spend more time thinking about how we can resolve this curts. and frankly, i was a little bit encouraged by the outcome. so the 2nd round of fashion training negotiations, because at least they were able to getting on from your tear and corridors, were still very far away from any kind of compromise. unfortunately,

people are doc killed every day. but at least some of the gaps, the positions seem to be narrow. if they come up from the positions i narrowed, but i think it's only on the manufacturing issues. are they agreed on the strategic or tactical issues? i don't think they have any progress, whatever it can i, we will discuss how it could possibly be resolved, or at least in which direction besides would be moving in order to do that. but let's consider a little bit of the, the set of settings for this conflict, because you've addressed to the nation after authorizing to strike while the russian was acting in self defense in an effort to avert a much bigger war. the one between russia and major and the one that could have

involved in nuclear weapons. is that options? do we on the table at this point? no, i don't think so. i would say that at least in my judgement and escalation is still possible and that i know a lot depends on the decisions made by the most atlantic lines. because there is a strong pressure on need to, to get involved in this conflict. in the more active wait for something more than just supply and weapons to ukraine and sharing intelligence information or with the, with the authorities. for instance, there is a discussion about a no fly zone over u k. and the need to tries to to have such a no fly zone. it will constitute danger of

direct nato russia. conflict. can these concept, unfortunately, can easily escalate to the nuclear level. now, even before the beginning of this military, russia, a major, we're in disagreement about the nature of that disagreements are most good, was always bigger than simply a conflict of conflict between russia and ukraine. oracles over them, back to the west. it was more or less, you know, a little disagreement. do you think which framework do you think is fitting it better at this point? and do you think i need this horrendous advance of the last couple of days? very tragic events. in any case, do you think they have a broad russia makes it closer to how they evaluate reality? well, i think the term right now it is difficult to,

to talk about what's going on in terms of local conflict. because the west eas invoice to the west will continue to be involved. i can easily imagine, for instance, you know, volunteers or most notice no matter how you called them from west country. so it gets them into a training logic, lunch of numbers. we can imagine the situation of the west might start more systematic military systems to ukraine and definitely discounted to below. also negative impact on other or somebody general issues that russian major have. for instance, i can imagine small townships in the black sea or maybe in the baltics in

the far north. i think this conflict might incentivize certain political forces in finland towards we didn't consider getting closer to nate or even join nature show my take is that one of the dangers of the situation that might lead to more comprehensive, multifaceted conflict between the russia and the west. and not just, you know, this military confrontation, but also confrontation between societies. because when i look at what is going on in the west, i feel that it is directed to not only the board, not only dawson did a ship or military, but it is directed to the russian society of the rational people that i think this is very dangerous, because they trans continuous loss,

then it would be very difficult to start rebuilding the relationship when the are of these stage of the conflict she's already behind us. so it might have been a long term consequences in terms of the relations between the us and the west. ridge, neither side to profit from a course. and there's a lot of speculation with regard to the timing of corporation. but the one that i care the most most the last straw was the lamp, the at the munich security conference in which he allowed when the change in your crane nuclear post chair, essentially hinted at the possible acquisition of nuclear weapons, which was, it was eyes at least rated even further by the lack of any review or any process from western capital. do you think the west would be okay with keep

refreshing from with x rays or perhaps even how he if he, if to refresh it. well, just let me say that i find the statement of the landscape in munich to be very inappropriate and unfortunate. i think that he shouldn't have done that. what of actions do with or rather the lack of any reaction to that? well, you know, it's talking about the expert community, of course there is, i think widespread opinion among the assets that you can is not in a position right now to get back to its alleged nuclear stages that there is no experience in the soviet union. most of the components of nuclear weapons manufactured outside that is contradicted by the russian intelligence report. well, i think the intelligence is looking for,

you know, even very small opportunities, but, you know, just really do exist. so it is a kind of forward look and approach. maybe not now, maybe 5 years from now, but of course ultimately ukraine is a country which has the technical capacity to produce nuclear weapons of just a matter of time. it's a matter of money. it's a matter of persistence and the ability to concentrate that needed to intellectual engineering capacity on this issue. i don't think that would be okay with that with no, no, i think that's definitely a very serious problem. it's not just for moscow, but for the capitals because that might touch or produce a change x. for instance, ukraine might share its technologist with other are potential problem a ready i think that answer well we will primarily know what they did. they shared

on some of the ballistic technology that they said i'm arguing or very exactly they, they argued that some of the unexpected to break to see in the korean ballistic program, so originated in your case, you know, it's hard to prove the supposition. or there might have been some other sources of technology, but you cane is one of the options that's, that's clear. so in terms of ballistic technology is i think the ukraine has a lot to offer. and in terms of nuclear technology is it still has to cover a lot of ground before the option become. so they are least declare available, however, you know, i, i'm deeply convinced to that nobody is interest just nobody is interested to

go in nuclear. sure. that would definitely create major problems for non, for the age. and i do hope that the kind of leadership understands the the are the potential barrels of such a decision. ok, well mr. cardinal, we have to see commercial break right now. we will be back in just a few moments. ah ah, what he got to do is identify the threads that we have a tree that even fun taishan let it be an arms race is very dramatic. i am going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very difficult time to sit down and talk

with . mm. welcome back to the partners. i'm the director general of the russian international affairs council, mr. cornel before the break. we were talking about the spectra of ukraine requiring nuclear weapons and this whole new play issue has a very measurable, very concrete dimension. because during the cold war it would have taken a missile from the soviet union around 30 minutes. he's a major american, see, and i think according to some estimates that i have here in russia, if you're a right to be supplied by some major or

american material the time we have been reduced to 5 or even 4 minutes. and that's perhaps a theoretical scenario. but what i would want to ask you about is, what kind of a change policy change would have produced? would have made a more pushy in regards to russia, or would it have made rational compliance with regard to the west, a lifeline time is likely to be use to strategic hello, todd, who doesn't jamaica osher lie a mall now a potential preemptive strategist. and i internal, this is likely to her being down the level of the overall european

strategic stability are dead. it is a said, a dangerous option. it can be dealt with by dia, alerted of by ya, create in all some law or provisions for non deployment. let me give you just one example which might explain what i mean. in 1990 un germany, they knew it a unified, there was a special agreement signed the so called 2 plus 4 agreement to 2 german is and for a country has said that to one in the 2nd world war and the decision was made to that the is the part of germany would join native because the united germany of was a part of nature. but to that, to know nathan was talked, you know,

for him to. so i know you clear weapons. ah, but no military exercises. ah will. i will go to the territory fees german. so the former g d r is even now 32 years later, he's not coverage caused by the nater alliance infrastructure. or there are no american tools. the or there are no euclid installations the are. so this is how it works. if you want to reach an agreement that would contain the need to infrastructure. when east, you should think about legally binding treaties that said specific limitations or the specific types of weapons, personnel, and activities or this directly. and as we saw are basically this is not inconceivable to reach such agreements so that in my view should be applied to

ukraine as well. you follow a goal is to contain bee at the stereo military infrastructure getting closer to our board. mr. person, i think it would agree that russia has made an attempt to last, each time to propose such talks and such agreements in relation to your brain and neutral status to things trade when it comes to needing for structure military infrastructure on that's are true. but the using that didn't work out in putting words i believe that is what has allowed them to. busy russia authorizing the tribes on to the ukrainian territory. now, putting to put in this operation have 2 objectives. one is the military is ation. i see my law should have been taken care of by russia destroying much of your friends, military infrastructure, right? this point. what about the 2nd objective, these so called di vacation? how do you even interpreted?

well, i think it's a more ambitious goal because it complies reset or the ukrainian state for inter blinds that gain s to change its political system. that the system should be more inclusive, that it should de, incorporate some political forces which are marginalized right now. if you could political life i and it should alter side. so some of the had to come national groups. i think that the goal would be extremely difficult to achieve. it is more difficult to them. for example, get into a neutral status of your brain, which is very, very hard in itself right now, especially after what has happened done. definitely difficult to impose such a state just so you think when the crumbling proposal is gina suffocation, as when it states tradition as an objective,

do you think it actually means that or is it more, more or less of the sort of as a broad political agenda well, you know, we don't know, but i suspect that you should look at the red lights advanced by, by dashing federation some lines which i really had, which i even purple, like all nature membership for me to for the, for ukraine. and there are other lines to be show might look a little bit big, which can be negotiated. hopefully it can be where she to, to. and of course the modalities of their not vacation is probably one of these lines. this is something that has to become a metro throw that negotiations. hopefully, you know, we will be able to reach a compromise on how to distill miss between this purple lines and the pink

lines. but i'm not in a position to judge about that. i think it would be a hard job for both sides. now it's very dramatic to use it for by russia will undoubtedly cost it a lot. you wrote a lot about. 2 it in recent weeks, in prison days, rather, not only its relations, but the west and sanctions, but also future development, its relations with the outside world. but i think the calculation in moscow is that from now on political actors in the west may think twice or perhaps rice about the encroaching on the rushes interest. do you think there's actions as pickable, as they may seem to western decision makers? do you think they may change the calculus in western capital when they consider policy? russia? well, of course, so i think that if you look at the poll additions, i don't think that many of them predicted what would happen. and these actions

demonstrate that there are some leadership committed to defend him. ash, a security interest. he was an all the means that the disposal and it's a very serious signal, but the rest it's yet to be skin call. the rest will reply to that. but it's a very serious signal about russia intentions and the, the commitment of dash the ship. but she said she uses military force on such a scale is shocking in the beginning. but it's not the 1st example in recent years . in fact, i think in our very neighborhood, we saw a garbage on with tax that supportive turkey using limited military force to reclaim some historic character from armenia reasonable checks back. the kinetic force will make its return into the reality of geopolitics. after these

relatively short period of trying to manage each other by preaching values. well, you know, i guess the kinetic force has always been via a blue cover example of the u. s. so patient in iraq, 2 or 3 lives. i exceptional, exceptional means a supreme there should not be compared. right. well, you know, frankly, i have to tell you that the american actions are called so a lot of criticism in europe and countries like france and germany, belgium did not support this operation. but a beetle, i can remind you of your patient in there, get his tongue, which was, are 2 logical operation as well. i think the difference is that we have a scalar military operation or i think the central, if you know it's not even the wilkinson though, the balkans was also a short for,

for many of the tides innovation to central europe. and that suggests that kinetic force can be used more just to in some remote areas of the rolled, which you are important, but still are not perceived as critically important to for the european security. and today we see a conflict to right in the middle of our own continent, which is clearly a new development. and i can only hope with all these turns will continue to we will get back to the negotiating table and we can agree on the european architecture we should provide for an acceptable level of stability. and the collectability in the european law continent has ever isn't it? you're one of my last questions i heard you say just recently that are far from being law practice represents a transition to any international now which is still in the process of just pay and

just station i wonder if you could talk about the current source. obviously you can actually see them right now. how would it be different from the one that we have a moment? well, it's a good christian of course, the picture is not clear today, but i think that we are entering a very dangerous period in the international development of periods of a lot of all the taylor t a lot of for conflicts in various parts. so the role, unfortunately, we see trans to the globalization of the major decreases of direct foreign investment. broadness with international travel was c protectionism by many parts of the world may be we will end up with some

regionalism. so the former global hands will continue, but not at the global regional level. at the same time, depression for global problems is likely to increase. or we are facing the world with deficits for major commodities and the socials, like food and threats and trash, water, energy. so i think that's what we really need to move the global governance to a new level. well, that would be extremely difficult to because the world is not united to, to split. and that's very difficult to get to the common denominator on such important issues as global governance. well, but on the other hand, all day meet your breaks, the peas happened to be worse. so let's hope that this one will not have to be that be in danger. engender rather than this changes. it's

a course. nothing's been great. pleasure talking to you. thank you very much for being so gracious to be a time and good luck. thank you. you know, and thank you for watching hope to hear again next week a mm hm. mm hm. mm hm. with

a little over the place are plus a little documents, ideas of ukrainian troops, military uniforms for parity, the. so just here, she'll call these left them here and put on civilian clothing. before mingling with a k all take retreat from their base is vast amounts of equipment are left behind by ukrainian service. men. also ahead in the program, russia claims notorious new naulty as all the tale and stop people from using humanitarian car doors to flee. a c spar collapses, all bundled in the dumbbells, continue our t visits times that have come under the control of the army. locals claim there were used does convention.