they to support world oil prices until then keep in touch, why all our social media, and if it's available in your country and let us know if you think europe will cut off, it's russian oil supply. and remember, all episodes going on the guns are available to watch in our tito. ah! look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. i robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order to conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence. and the point obviously, is to great trust, rather than fear a very job with artificial intelligence. real, somebody with a robot must protect its own existence with

a with hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered. i'm people about the west liberal world order is collapsed in the hedge of money. it's hard to maintain and expand the conflict in ukraine as a proxy war of the real target is russia and indirectly china. the law of unintended consequences is in play. in the end, it will be, europe pays the highest price.

ah, cross fucking the liberal order. i'm joined by my guest, patrick lawrence and alfred. he is a foreign affairs commentator whose columns appear in consortium news and other publications in washington. we have the voice mileage. he is a blogger, and columnist, and in paris we cross a john laughlin. he is a university lecture in history and political philosophy are gentlemen crossed up rules in the fact that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate, john, let me go to you 1st in paris. i'm titling this program liberal order collapse or liberal order. i hit a brick wall and it's the we're in a situation right now, due to the machinations and intentional policy decisions made primarily in london in washington. they've hit a brick wall and their publics are going to pay a very high price for what it is. it we don't get usually used foreign policy decisions. they happen somewhere far away. and the implications are only for the

people that are on the, on the losing and a bit now we have energy prices, migration ah, a other issues security related or all piling up on top of each other. and it's, it public's in the west are gonna feel it immediately. go ahead, john. i think that's right. i noted that on the 8th of march, shortly before we recorded this program, the chinese foreign minister said that the friendship between russia and china was as solid as a rock. and that's definitely a sign that the main strategic goal of this operation and everything else that goes with it has been achieved. that strategic goal was indeed to put an end to the unipolar world order. the famous program laid out by vladimir putin in munich in 2007, however i oh and, and yes, i agree with the other parts of your question about the extreme dangers which your

faces and the well generally to a lesser extent, america, in terms of as you say, higher energy prices, but not just that there is a whole range of financial and economic exposure of absolutely terrifying magnitude including the, the exposure of european banks to all kinds of a futures contracts, for instance, for gas perpetual for wheat fur. well, you know, you name it all those, there's massive exposure on that. there is of course, the exposure on energy. there are various other things like aircraft, an aircraft pieces. so there is immense danger. yes. to the european economy. and i definitely don't think that europeans are ready for this. you said in your introduction, the russians, a fatalistic europeans are definitely not that on the other hand, i would guard against any, you know, it's not over yet. well, you say the liberal world order is, is finished. we are in a battle right now. we are in a war and economic war being waged by the west against russia. and

a military war being waged in ukraine by russia. and that's a very and symmetrical, a symmetrical conflict. it is possible that the west will not come out on top, but i don't, i think it's much too early to say we are a long way from the end of this yet. so i agree. i would not agree that the liberal world older has come to an end yet. i'm getting the boyfriend, me go to you in washington. i'm one of the things i find very disturbing is that all i hear from the west is escalation, escalating the conflict in ukraine, then no one in the west is talking about a peace settlement, how to end hostilities there they want to continue. ukraine is already a failed state, or what else are they going to do to it? i've said, for years, you know, when it was a came to afghanistan, iraq, you know, now it's ukraine. haven't they had enough of western help? go ahead in washington. well the thing they don't really, for all of the western politicians are talking about helping ukrainians. they don't really care what happens to the ukrainians they are. they are openly discussing

using ukraine as another. dreaming of making you creat another afghan, a stand for russia, which would be absolute disaster for people actually living there. so for all of there are sensible proclamations of wanting well to, to the people of ukraine and wanting to save their lives and so forth. everything they're doing is actually helping those lives and very quickly or in great pain. i mean, if there was any interest in wanting peace and prosperity in ukraine, they would have backed some sort of settlement with russia years ago. and what they would have given those security guarantees that was asked for, but no, the plan was always the use ukraine as a weapon. that's it. and that's why right? and that's why i grew agreeing with you. i mean there was men squat and 2, but nobody and i, i really fault the europeans a lot for that. i fought mac crone. i what i the person i called sergeant schultz in germany. i thought them for not standing up for europe or. yeah,

i said it sergeant schultz. ok patrick. good got guy. i'm eager to patrick for get everybody in here. a patrick. i mean you're in the u. s. i mean i watch cable news . all i get is emotion. i get no rational reasoning. it's really emotionally. it's, it's hysterical. you can't make policy decisions based on hysteria. patrick, it's so it's becoming intolerable law as a, as, as any one among your viewers who doesn't live here needs to know. i want to edit you a little bit. peter, we're not talking about a, a liberal. we're not talking about a liberal world order. we're talking about an ill liberal warms order. okay. good. and that has been a that has been behind the veil in my view all along. it seems to me that my larger point here is that this is a moment of historical magnitude that we all need to understand as

such, not to diminish the importance of the ukraine crisis. and the russian decision to intervene, which i, which i think is regrettable but necessary. those are my terms for it. or that is a subset of a much, much larger question. a president putin and president, she made this very clear on february force. this is a moment when a new world order or a tired old phrase, but it's going to have meaning this time is beginning to come in to being i agree with our a colleague in paris. it's not over, but it's been, it's, i think we were looking at the beginning of the end and these sort of movements

in history. and they can come with imagination and creativity. or they can come violently. a, typically, it's the latter. when an empire is defending itself, and that's what we're getting here, i think i'm. and i think we just all need to accept that. if we're going to get through this and find our way to a stabler and more peaceful world, the americans are not going to let it happen. oh, well, well, i mean i didn't do it john a, it seems to me, i mean, watching this, the quote unquote intensive negotiations and diplomacy and all this. i was exasperated for months because i, it was all fake. i mean, you go to the kremlin, talk to this person. all right? and you know, they always went empty handed and i have a feeling they wanted something like this to happen. okay. a justified all of their

fever, dream, hatred. okay. and editor it, it freighter vita go ahead, patrick, jump in real quick the, the other morning i read the pentagon has not been in touch with anyone in the russian defense establishment since the russian intervention began. the, the biden administration has no plans for diplomatic compact. with, with the russian federation or anybody. i mean, patrick, they did send kamala harris, i'm not really sure what to take away from that. okay. are you trying to depress me? i would none of it. we can't get any more depressed than we are gentlemen here. a god, how you got most of my question there. go ahead and jump in. yeah, i, i, i think it's true. i what patrick says, which, oh sorry. what the voice says, which is that, of course, the americans are dreaming of another afghanistan. as we know general's role is fighting the most wolf. but i'm not sure that i agree that there was a deliberate desire to have a war. now, on the part of the west, on the contrary,

i think that my view is that russia had taken the decision. i obviously don't know exactly when, but we were bombarded, as you know, with leaks saying that russia was about to invade and it was denied, of course on the russian side. and then it happened. and i actually think that those leaks for once were right. i didn't believe them and i got it wrong. i called it wrong, wrongly i didn't expect that to be an invasion, but i think that they were right. and i think one of the proofs of that is the date . because the beginning of the military operation was day for day as i'm sure you know, peter, the anniversary of the my dad. exactly. exactly. and yeah, i think that's an invasion. an operation of this kind is decided at the last minute, not even in the last month, i think on the contrary, it was a long time in the planning. and i think therefore, i, you know, to say that the west wanted it know, that would imply that putin walked into a trap. i think instead of the immediate calls

a part of course from the my down and so on. is the are the defense agreements, the strategic agreement signed between ukraine and written on the one hand and united states on the other in july and august 2021 agreement strategic military agreements which provided for a huge amounts, hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to the ukranian navy in particular, but the armed forces in general, and of course, military exercises and so on. in other words, throughout the summer of 2021, nato, ukraine was in the process as it were, of joining nato through the back door. no running native calls and establishing military and strategic partnerships with britain and america. and i think at that point, russia probably decided that it was game over and it was indeed, shortly after. then in november, if i remember correctly, that russia decided to break off diplomatic relations with nature. and i think that was probably the point at which the invasion was decided. yeah, but i mean, we, we saw indications, you know, russia said, you know,

the way they would respond with our military technical means. okay. i mean, they said that openly publicly. so, i mean, is this, was this a game of chicken. okay, because as i'm always reminded, living in this country, russians don't bluff, they act, you know, i agree, but i that's what i think, i think the conditions, the level of the conditions is so high was so high and is still so high that the russians were completely prepared to invade and say they were not laughing. they were not taken seriously, but that doesn't mean that the west was trying to track them. okay, hang on john. here i, we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, gentlemen will continue our discussion on the liberal order stay with our team. ah ah oh, is your media a reflection of reality?

in the world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation, whole community? are you going the right way, or are you being led? so direct. what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. i mean by drink shapes. bankers are those with

there's sinks, we dare to ask oh, well, it shows the wrong one. i just don't know any world. yes to say proud to say because of the african and engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground with

welcome at the cross walk where all things are considered. i'm peter level to remind you we're discussing, discussing the liberal order. okay, let's go back to patrick. patrick, it's not said a straightforwardly, but there is a, essentially, a state of war here do do, do that, the american public actually understand what that means. patrick? no, i don't. i don't think so. there, there is a kind of a, there is a sort of cinematic quality about the way this is being, are presented to americans. are you go to a concern of mine or not to diminish the plight of ukrainians who are being driven from their homes. and so forth,

but i've been extremely concerned at the extent at the power and, and a prevalence of we've got a propaganda operation here that i, and numerous others of my age if i may say, sink, is unprecedented. now this is really quite shocking. and the other side of that moon is it is grotesquely successful of the extent to which people are rolling over and accepting this. so these perverse accounts of what's going on is, is, so this cannot be good for america to be this blind. i have 4 words that i think people need to think about. history chronology, context a causality. i'm sorry, 5 and responsibility. they would,

i say none of the i see none of those words in the and the coverage of this conflict at all. not one. okay. no, no, no, and i what, what, what we're getting over here peter. perhaps they're getting the same. and in france to an extent is context is some kind of awful russian idea. right. her, you know, you know what causality. we don't want to talk about causality. i think this goes back to 2001, and george w's people saying we don't negotiate with our adversaries. i think it was in 2001 that in, in the consciousness americans stopped wanting to hear the perspectives of other people. ah, we, we, we turned inward and against all at once. a and,

and this is the consequence of that. now we want, we had no interest in knowing how this may look from a russian perspective or even a european perspective at this point. peter, it, if i say no, i think i can book and american foreign policy on the one hand, you know, that was a long time ago. coups and things like that. and something must be done. that's how you book and american foreign policy. and then you put a whole lot of emotion in between. ok, because i saw an interview with petra shank of the former president on on fox news . the presenter didn't push back on one thing he said and everything he said was not true. it was simply verifiably and true, no pushback whatsoever. that tells me that the american public is going to be led down on a path again. and i don't trust the people empower kamala harris is negotiating now

in europe. ok, and you know, and i don't want to talk about joe, you know, in his issues and all that. but they do know that when you were not dealing with the a team here, we're really dealing with a lot of low octane thinkers. go ahead and dc. well, the worst part is that they're, they're almost like and b c's running a 2030 year old script because i've compared a situation repeatedly to the u. s. policy in the balkans in the ninety's. yep. they think they're dealing with another bosnian. yep. and so lensky is literally doing the is a bag of each bit of euro. please help me military intervention or an aide my country's being needed. i've done here where he is actually executing the instructions from washington. and would predictable results. but the problem is obviously they're either don't understand that they're not dealing with serbia here, but with russia, which is vastly orders of magnitude differ. and also that they're trying to do the same thing date. they did back in the 90s to the europeans. they're trying to

basically quashed any attempt by europeans of any sort of independence, economic political anything and put them back under the american boot heels. which again, i'm not really surprised because the people running the foreign policy here, the institutional blob, it shall not be challenged in washington, are basically acolytes of people who ran to the store back in the 90 s, right. don't have any version, right? or if they just have the old script, you know, to am. but john, i mean it, but i agree with the boy. absolutely. and it is very reminiscent here. but there's a lot of material interests at stake here in the, in the balkan wars, the legal wars in the balkans in the 1990s. it is a different magnitude because energy prices, my mass migration, all kinds of things that are, go, are going to hit europeans immediately. you could, you could keep in the case of the 1990s, it way a, the, the impact wasn't so great. this is something of a different magnitude. and again i want to says, am i disappoint one with the leadership coming out of germany and france. go ahead,

john. well, i completely agree a suddenly with the what son natasha has just said, the europeans have shot themselves. not just in the foot, but in the head on the all. yeah. the united states. and they have done it not only at great eminence and long term economic cost. because as i mentioned in my 1st answer, europe is very exposed and not just in energy supplies, but in all kinds of ways, including in its financial markets. john, they will, i want to at john, let me enter, enter. interject your macro absolutely astonishes me. how do you account for? here's a man who argued for european inter dependence and a recognition of russia's role in europe and so on and so forth. it a real goal astray. how do you account for his behavior? i don't know why they definitely a wanna be gall, was located because it we don't see the policy or john, that's a great quarter nor battery. go ahead. no, he's not. a goal is to his,

his position on any subject depends on what day of the week it is on my little girl . why not? you say it will be black and on wednesday it will be grey. so yes, there is an opportunist without spade it. well it's, it's worse than that actually. i think he believes that he can somehow, in his own person, incorporate all kinds of contradictions. but i, what i, what i'm preoccupied about is not only as i say, the economic exposure, we'll see, who, which, which, whether the russian to the europeans are, which of the 2 or more capable of withstanding b the, the fallout. but also, i'm deeply concerned. you've mentioned, of course, the propaganda, but i'm concerned by the descent into illegality. because of the way in which our tea and sputnik were banned is totally illegal with firstly, we're not at war with russia. and secondly, the mechanism by which they were banned is illegal. but it doesn't stop there all over the place from london to monte carlo. they've been seizing property or and in

italy to belonging to so called oligarch. so people close to the russian regime. but these kinds of expectations. are you asking about the liberal holder, peter? yeah, the base of the liberal to for a 101st centuries has been property right. property rights break in thank me. if they can be brushed aside, you know, by the say, so of an elected official in brussels or by some other official international government. then there is no liberal order anymore because if they can get people like robin abramivitch who has billions, then they can also get people like you and me. and that is what is so frightening about this thing. this whole thing they have, they have already got the truck in canada. i mean they, they're definitely trying to get this power for themselves. and i'm, i'm sorely tempted to believe that this is all in the service of the great reset. and, and that the, you know, the power leads in the west don't really care of this, crushes their economies at home because of they've already factored it into their plan. great. you know, well know you're, you're on this and the boise,

it's bread and circuses. ok. because the a liberal order is collapsing, left and right in center for the average person in the western world, it's not working for them. but now we have a circus to watch on cable tv, which of course, they explain all the things that are happening, ukraine, but they don't really show any thing. that's what i find to starting as well. we have televisions about telling stories with pictures. all we get is editorials, the boy should go ahead and washington. well that's, that's because there are no pictures. pictures in reality, of the ground shows a completely different story than the one that being told in the living rooms. but again, the editor realized the bring in these neo cons that have never fought a war in their life. they bring in people who have lost wars and don't know how to fight them. and the handful of people that have actually thought wars and know what they're about, they come on and they get shouted down because they don't tell the politically correct story. again, this is, it's, i maintained for months that this was

a wag the dog operation because it was all so big on the western end. and when i wonder we moved in, i wonder whether the french public the european public is subjected to this kind of wave of, of perception management. and whether they are as swooning downward as the american public has been maybe joe and john, you want to address that? go ahead. john. well, it varies from country to country in britain, the hysteria is probably worse, i think, than even in the united states in france. pretty high, but much less high in germany, it's very high and so on. so it varies from country to country. and so there's no doubt that the overwhelming balance is with of course supporting the ukrainian side . and i just like to say that i don't in a way, of course, i agree with the criticisms that have been made about the american and european

political establishments. i particularly think that they have behaved ideologically . they seem blinded by ideology. why, why, why shouldn't ukraine be neutral? what, why is that ideologically so important? seems like quite a good solution. and they are blinded by that ideology. but this conflict will not be resolved by seeing the other guy's point of view or understanding the russian position. patrick, i'm responding to your earlier remark. yeah, won't be ready. by seeing the other guy's point of view, it will be resolved, like all great conflicts by false. that's how it will be resolved. that's how the world works. and that's what we're seeing now is quite simply, false economic and military force being used to try to change a situation, which is why john and john in the last 30 seconds. are there any winners in this? no, there are no winners. and the, the, the only thing i would add, which hasn't been mentioned, is that so lensky has set now on several occasions,

including on the 8th of march, that he has been completely abandoned by nature. so we'll have to see how long that position can hold from my point of view is if i want to interject chair, i say there that we will all be winners. if we understand this properly, we haven't, we have an, an aggressive empire that needs to be stopped. if it is stopped, we all win. well, that is a very, very tall order. we'll see how it plays out. that's all the time we have gentlemen . i want to thank my guest, no for washington and in paris, and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c. you next time. remember, cross hobbles. ah,

ah, is your media a reflection of reality? in the world transformed? what will make you feel safer? isolation or community? are you going the right way? or are you being that somewhere? which direction? what is true? what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to descend ah, to join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah ah

ah, i'm beneficial with .