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tv   Cross Talk  RT  March 9, 2022 10:30pm-11:01pm EST

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i'm joined by my guess, patrick lawrence in norfolk, he is a foreign affairs commentator who's column superior in consortium news and other publications in washington. we have the voice mileage. he is a blogger, and columnist, and in paris we cross a john laughlin. he is a university lecture in history and political philosophy. hi, gentleman cross top roles and the fact that means you can jump in any time you want . and i always appreciate, john, let me go to you 1st in paris. i'm titling this program liberal order collapse or liberal order. i hit so brick wall. ah, it's that we're in a situation right now due to the machinations air and intentional policy decisions made primarily in london and washington. they've hit a brick wall and their publics are going to pay a very high price for it's what it, it's, it, we don't get usually use foreign policy decisions. they happen somewhere far away. and the implications are only for the people that are on the, on the losing and a bit. now we have energy prices, migration, ah, other issues, security related are all piling up on top of each other. and it's e at publics in
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the west are going to feel it immediately. go ahead, john. i think that's right. i noted that on the 8th of march, or shortly before we recorded this program, the chinese foreign minister said that the friendship between russia and china was as solid as a rock. and that's definitely a sign that the main strategic goal of this operation and everything else that goes with it has been achieved. that strategic goal was indeed to put an end to the unipolar world order. the famous program laid out by latimer putin in munich in 2007. however, i oh and, and yes, i agree with the other part of your question about the extreme dangers which europe faces and the well generally to a lesser extent, america, in terms of, as you say, higher energy prices, but not just that there is a whole range of a financial and a nomic exposure of an absolutely terrifying magnitude including the exposure
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of european banks to all kinds of futures contracts, for instance, for gas perpetual for wheat fur. well, you know, you name it all those. there's massive exposure on that. there is, of course, the exposure on energy, or there are various other things like aircraft, an aircraft pieces. so there is immense danger. yes. to the european economy. and i definitely don't think that europeans are ready for this. you said that your introduction to russians, a fatalistic europeans, definitely not. but on the other hand, i would guard against any that, you know, it's not over yet. well, you say the liberal world order is, is finished. we are in a battle right now. we are in a war and economic war being waged by the west against russia, and the military war being waged in ukraine by russia. and that's a very on symmetrical, a symmetrical conflict. it is possible that the west will not come out on top,
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but i don't, i think it's much too early to say we are a long way from the end of this yet. so i, again, i would not agree that the liberal world older has come to an end yet. again, if i should only go to you in washington, i am one of the things i find very disturbing is that, oh, i hear from the west is escalation. i escalating the conflict in ukraine and no one in the west is talking about a peace settlement, how to end hostilities. there they want to continue. ukraine is already a failed state. or what else are they going to do to it? i said, for years, you know, when it was a came to afghanistan, iraq, you know, now it's ukraine. haven't they had enough of western help go ahead in washington? well, the thing they don't really, for all of the western politicians are talking about helping ukrainians. they don't really care what happens to the ukrainians, and they're, they're openly discussing using ukraine as another dreaming of making ukraine and other afghanistan for russia, which would be absolute disaster for,
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for actual living there. so for all of there are sensible proclamations of wanting well to, to the people of ukraine and wanting to save their lives and so forth. everything they're doing is actually helping those lives and very quickly or in great pain. i mean, if there was any interest in wanting peace and prosperity in ukraine, they would have backed some sort of settlement with russia years ago and what they would have given those security guarantees that was asked for. but no, the plan was always use ukraine as a weapon that to it. and that's why right? and that's why i agree agreeing with you. i mean, there was min squatting too, but no, but, and i, i really fault the europeans a lot for that. i fought in the crone. i was the person i called sergeant schultz in germany. i fault them for not standing up for europe. right? yeah, i said sergeant schultz. ok patrick, we're going be going to patrick. pretty get everybody in here. patrick. i mean, you're in the u. s. i mean i all i, when i watch cable news,
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all i get is emotion. i get no rational reasoning. it's really emotionally. it's hysterical. you can't make policy decisions based on hysteria. patrick, it's, it's becoming intolerable as, as, as any one among your viewers who doesn't live here needs to know. i want to edit you a little bit. peter, we're not talking about a liberal. we're not talking about a liberal world order. we're talking about an ill liberal warms or order ok good. and that has been that has been behind the veil in my view all along. it seems to me that my larger point here is that this is a moment of historical magnitude that we all need to understand as such, not to diminish the importance of the ukraine crisis. and the russian decision to
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intervene, which i, which i think is regrettable but necessary. those are my terms for it. that is a subset of a much, much larger question. president putin and president, she made this very clear on february 4th. this is a moment when a new world order a tired old phrase, but it's going to have meaning this time is beginning to come in to being i agree with our colleague in paris. it's not over, but it's been, it's, i think we were looking at the beginning of the end and these sort of movements in history. they can come with imagination and creativity. or they can come violently. typically,
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it's the ladder when an empire is defending itself. and that's what we're getting here, i think. and i think we just all need to accept that if we're going to get through this and find our way to a stable or, and more peaceful world, the americans are not going to let it happen. oh, well, well, i mean it, john a, it seems to me, i mean, watching this, the quote unquote intensive negotiations and diplomacy and all this, i was exasperated for months because i, it was all fake. i mean, you know, go to the kremlin, talk to this personally, and you know, they always went empty handed and i have a feeling they wanted something like this to happen. okay. a justified all of their fever, dream, hatred. okay. and editor it freighter, but go ahead, patrick, jump in real quick. the the other morning i read the pentagon has not been in touch with anyone in the russian defense establishment since the russian intervention
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began. the, the biden administration has no plans for diplomatic compact with, with the russian federation or anybody. i mean, patrick, they did send kamala harris, i'm not really sure what to take away from that. okay. are you trying to depress me? i would none of it. we can't get any more depressed than we are gentlemen here. i got, you got most of my question there. go ahead and jump in. yeah, i, i think it's true what patrick says, which, oh sorry. what the voice says, which is that, of course, the americans are dreaming of another afghanistan, as we know generals fighting the most wolf. but i'm not sure that i agree that there was a deliberate desire to have a war. now on the part of the west. on the contrary, i think that my view is that russia had taken the decision. i obviously don't know exactly when, but we were bombarded, as you know, with leaks saying that russia was about to invade and it was denied,
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of course on the russian side. and then it happened. and i actually think that those leaks for once were right. i didn't believe them and i got it wrong. i called it wrong, wrongly i didn't expect that to be an invasion, but i think that they were right. and i think one of the proofs of that is the date . because the beginning of the military operation was day for day as i'm sure you know, peter, the anniversary of the my dad. exactly. exactly. and yeah, i think that's an invasion. an operation of this kind is decided at the last minute, not even in the last month, i think on the contrary, it was a long time in the planning. and i think therefore, i, you know, to say that the west wanted it know, that would imply that putin walked into a trap. i think instead of the immediate calls a part of course from the my down and so on. is the are the defense agreements, the strategic agreement signed between ukraine and written on the one hand and united states on the other in july and august 2021 agreement strategic military
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agreements which provided for a huge amounts, hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to the ukranian navy in particular, but to the armed forces in general, and of course military exercises and so on. in other words, throughout the summer of 2021, nato, ukraine was in the process as it were, of joining nato through the back door. no running native calls and establishing military and strategic partnerships with britain and america. and i think at that point, russia probably decided that it was game over and it was indeed, shortly after. then in november, if i remember correctly, that russia decided to break off diplomatic relations with nature. and i think that was probably the point at which the invasion was decided. yeah, but i mean, we, we saw indications, you know, russia said, you know, the way they would respond with our military technical means. okay. i mean, they said that openly publicly. so, i mean, is this, was this a game of chicken. okay, because as i'm always reminded, living in this country,
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russians don't bluff, they act. now i agree, but i that's what i think, i think the conditions, the level of the conditions is so high was so high and is still so high that the russians were completely prepared to invade and say they were not laughing. they were not taken seriously. but that doesn't mean that the west was trying to trap them. okay. they are done here. i. we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, gentlemen will continue our discussion on the liberal order. stay with our team. ah, ah. l look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about,
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on personal intelligence at the point obviously is to create trust rather than fear a various job with artificial intelligence, real summoning with a robot most protective own existence with ah, ah, ah ah ah, ah, a
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ah ah, welcome back to cross talk, we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing, discussing the liberal order with okay, let's go back to patrick. patrick, it's not said a straightforwardly, but there is a, essentially a state of war here. do do, do, does the american public actually understand what that means? patrick? no, i don't. i don't think so. there, there is a kind of, there is a sort of cinematic quality about the way this is being presented to americans.
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you go to a concern of mine or not to diminish the plate of ukrainians who are being driven from their homes and so forth. but i've been extremely concerned at the extent at the power and, and the prevalence of we've got a propaganda operation here that i a numerous others of my age. if i may say, sink, is unprecedented. and this is really quite shocking. and the other side of that moon is it is grotesquely successful, the extent to which people are rolling over and accepting this. these perverse accounts of what's going on is, is, this cannot be good for america to be this blind. i have 4 words that i think
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people need to think about. history chronology, context, causality. i'm sorry, 5 and responsibility. yeah. but i say none of the i see none of those words in the and the coverage of this conflict at all. not one. ok. no, no, and what, what we're getting over here peter, or perhaps they're getting the shaman in french to an extent is the context is some kind of awful russian idea. right. you know, you know what, clothes, ality. we don't want to talk about causality. i think this goes back to 2001, and george w's people saying we don't negotiate with our adversaries. i think it was in 2001 that in, in the consciousness americans stopped wanting to hear the
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perspectives of other people. we, we, we turned in word and against all at once. and in this is the consequence of that know, we want, we have no interest in knowing how this may look from a russian perspective or even a european perspective at this point. peter, in their voice, you know, i think i can book and american foreign policy on the one hand, you know, that was a long time ago, coo and things like that. and something must be done. that's how you book and american foreign policy. and then you put a whole lot of emotion in between. ok, because i saw an interview with petro shank of the former president on fox news. the presenter didn't push back on one thing he said, and everything he said was not true. it was simply verifiably on true, no pushback whatsoever. that tells me that the, the,
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the american public is going to be led down the path again. and i don't trust the people in power kamala harris is negotiating now in europe. ok. and, you know, and i don't want to talk about joe, you know, and his issues and all that, but they were not dealing with the a team here. we're dealing with a lot of low octane thinkers. go ahead and d, c. well, the worst part is that they're, they're almost like n p. c's running a 2030 year old script because i've compared to situation repeatedly to the u. s. policy in the balkans in the ninety's. yep. they think they're dealing with another boss. me. yep. and so landscape literally doing the is a big of a bit of year, please help me a military intervention or an aide. my country's being invaded. i'm done here where he's actually executing the instructions from washington and would predictable results. but the problem is obviously they are either don't understand that they're not dealing with serbia here, but with russia,
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which is vastly orders of magnitude differ. and also that they're trying to do the same thing. they, they did back in the 90s to the europeans. they're trying to basically quashed any attempt by europeans of any sort of independence, economic political anything and put them back 100 the american boot heels. which again, i'm not really surprised because the people running the foreign policy here, the institutional blob, it shall not be challenged in washington, are basically acolytes of people who ran the store back in the 90. that's right. don't have any version, right? or if they just have the old script it but john, i mean it, but i agree with the bush. absolutely. and it is very reminiscent here. but there's a lot of material interests at stake here in the, in the balkan wars, the legal wars in the balkans in the 1990s. it is a different magnitude because energy prices, my mass migration, all kinds of things that are, are going to hit europeans immediately. you could, you could keep in the case of the 1990s in the,
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the impact wasn't so great. this is something of a different magnitude, and again, i want to start, am i disappoint one with the leadership coming out of germany and france. go ahead, john. well, i completely agree a suddenly, with what turn the boy has just said. the europeans have shot themselves, not just in the foot, but in the head on the audio, the united states. and they have done it not only at great imminent and long term economic cost. because as i mentioned in my 1st dancer, europe is very exposed and not just in energy supplies, but in all kinds of ways, including in its financial markets. john, they will, i want to at john, let me enter it or interject your macro absolutely astonishes me. how do you account for? here's a man who argued for european inter dependence and a recognition of russia's role in europe and so on and so forth. it a real gall astray. how do you account for his behavior?
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i don't know why they definitely a want to be gall was still gave because it, we don't see the policy or john, that's a great question or bad. right? go ahead. no, he's not to go list his his position on any subject depends on what day of the week it is on monday it will go to wife and you say it will be black and on wednesday it will be gray. so yes, there are always an opportunist. who does it? well it's, it's worse than that actually. i think he believes that he can somehow, in his own person, incorporate all kinds of contradictions. but i, what i, what i'm preoccupied about is not only as i say, the economic exposure, we'll see, who, which, which, whether the russians will europeans or which of the, to a more capable of withstanding the, the, the fallout. but also, i'm deeply concerned. you've mentioned, of course, the propaganda, but i'm concerned by the descent into illegality. because obviously the way in which our tea and sputnik were banned is totally illegal with firstly, we're not at war with russia. and secondly,
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the mechanism by which they were banned is illegal. but it doesn't stop there all over the place from london to monte carlo. they've been seizing property or and in italy to belonging to so called oligarch. so people close to the russian regime. but these kinds of expectations. are you asking about the liberal order? peter? yeah, the back of the liberal to for a 100 centuries has been property right. property rights break in thank me. if they can be brushed aside, you know, by the say, so of an elected official in brussels, or by some other official in a national government than there is no liberal order anymore. because if they can get people like robin abramivitch who has billions, then they can also get people like you and me. and that is what is so frightening about this thing, this whole thing they have. i already got the truck in canada. i mean they, they're definitely trying to get this power for themselves. and i'm, i'm sorely tempted to believe that this is all in the service of the great reset.
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and, and that the, you know, the power leads in the west don't really care if this crushes their economies at home because of they've already factored it into their plant. great. you know, well no i, i hear your on your, on this in the boise it's, it's bread and circuses. okay. because the liberal order is collapsing, left and right and center for the average person in the western world. it's not working for them. but now we have a circus to watch on cable tv, which of course, they explain all the things that are happening, ukraine, but they don't really show any thing. that's what i find and starting as well. we don't televisions about telling stories with pictures. all we get is editorials, no voice, or go ahead in washington. well that's, that's because there are no pictures. i picture his reality on the ground shows a completely different story than the one that's being told in the living groups. but again, they editorial eyes they bring in these neocons that have never fought a war in their life. they bring in people who have lost wars and don't know how to fight them. and that handful of people that have actually thought wars and know
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what they're about, they come on and they get shouted down because they don't tell the politically correct story. i again, this is it's, it's i maintained for months that this was a wagon dog up ation. because it was all so fake on the western end. and when i was really moved in, i wonder whether the french public or the european public is subjected to this kind of wave of over perception management. and whether they are as swooning downward as the american public has been. maybe john, john, you want to address that? go ahead. john. well, it varies from country to country. in britain, the hysteria is probably worse, i think, than even in, in the united states in france. it's pretty high, but much less high in germany, it's very high and so on. so it varies from country to country. and so there's no
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doubt that the overwhelming balance is with, of course, supporting the ukrainian side. and i'd just like to say that i don't, in a way, of course, i agree with the criticisms that have been made about the american and european political establishments. i particularly think that they have behaved ideologically . they seem blinded to by ideology. why, why, why shouldn't ukraine be neutral? what, why is that ideologically so important? seems like quite a good solution. and they are blinded by that ideology. but this conflict will not be resolved by seeing the other guy's point of view or understanding the russian position. patrick, i'm responding to your earlier remark. yeah, won't be ready. by seeing the other guy's point of view, it will be resolved, like all great conflicts by false. that's how it will be resolved. that's how the world works and that what we're seeing now is quite simply, false economic and military force being used to try to change a situation, which is what johnson john in the last 30 seconds. are there any winners in this?
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no, there are no winners. and the, the, the only thing i would add, which hasn't been mentioned is that lensky has set now on several occasions, including on the 8th of march, that he has been completely abandoned by nature. so we'll have to see how long that position can hold from my point of view is if i want to interject chair, i think there that we will all be winners. if we understand this properly, we haven't, we have an end aggressive empire that needs to be stopped. if it is stopped, we all win. well, that is a very, very tall order. we'll see how it plays out. that's all the time we have gentlemen . i want to thank my get to know for washington and in paris, and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c. you next time. remember crossel goals
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ah, in the united states has always had a variety of tools to use and tax on other countries. economic sanctions are, are often just the beginning. another thing you like to do is place some military pressure on the countries that you're talking about here. and there has to be an effort to demonize that country and the leader of that country. we have a responsibility for the home and we need to make rules for the rest. because without us there will be care
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ah ah ah ah, thank you for being patient.
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with one good morning, miss cooper, who's a quote do it for me for that already completed? done with a g as in yet? did you buy the walk? see yes. there is no use
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o is your media reflection of reality in the world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation for community. are you going the right way or are you being that somewhere? direct? what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah
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ah, 2 weeks since the conflict erupted in ukraine where people's homes have been devastated and many are playing as the russian military advances. some civilians are still unable to leave despite humanitarian corridors agreed upon by keith and moscow is if we stayed in shelters for 2 weeks, it was really very scary. i did get your daughter nation did. the 1st is my, i was the one with the, with the visit, the family hiding in basements in the war torn, luke gods, republic. as shelly continues to hit, residential areas is a after 8 years. we know when someone fires when shells full russia urges you asked to disclose materials on its biological research program and you.

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