ah ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. the crisis in ukraine has demonstrated just how fragile and out of bounds global security has become. instead of a calling for a cease fire, andy escalation, nato countries are doing everything in their power to prolong the conflict. this approach is turning ukraine into a failed state. ah, cross sucking the situation in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, michael maloof in washington. he's

a former pentagon senior security policy analyst in new york. we have caleb mauppin . he is a journalist and political analysts. and in london we cross through adrenal con santa. he is founder of aka consulting and a foreign affairs analyst, or a gentleman, cross stock rosen. the fact that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate michael. let me go to you 1st in washington here. as i said in my introduction here, i'm watching politicians, i'm watching a hysterical media here. they want to escalate. i the people that know nothing about on a no fly zone or are promoting it. this is absolutely insanity. and so instead of d escalating, trying to find solutions here, is there, escalating it to where nato essentially going to be dragged into this? and unfortunately, there are a lot of people that seem to agree with that. go ahead, michael. yeah, it's unfortunate because in spite of the, the crisis and the end, the humanitarian devastation that has occurred, it seems as though the west,

particularly may the biden administration. and most especially the mere conservatives within, like victoria new and are, are pushing this to a brink. and we, and i don't know why, except that they're trying to contain rush, i think they're trying to overthrow the government in, in, in the russia. i think that's our ultimate goal. they want the people in russia. i think that russia is the ultimate target. ukraine has always been just the, the, the, the, the, the debate if you will. and, and this, and you saw this in the, in the lead up to the opening of hostilities when stolen burg, and the others were just so adamant about nato expansion. notwithstanding the fact that it's a violation of, of almost 30 years of agreements that, that were signed up there between the west and the east. and yet these agreements like all agreements i guess are made to be broken. and that's precisely what has occurred. and, and i think that the ukraine is just being used for, for,

for their purposes. they don't want an attack on, on the west. but they, they want to do what they can to a cast russia in the, in the, in the worst possible light. and, and to ultimately result in a, in a, in a disruption with, in russia itself. you know, caleb, let's go to you in, in new york. i mean, if we look back of this, essentially this iteration of this crisis goes back to 2014 with the illegal overthrow of the government there with the backing of the united states and victoria, no one is back, i'm, i don't, he, caleb, it's, it's really quite remarkable that no one in the foreign policy blob or in the media has realized the more quote unquote nato nato countries help ukraine, the smaller it gets in more unstable and actually a lot poor. nobody likes to point that out. go ahead caleb. sure. i mean, if you listen to american media, you would,

i have no idea that this is been going on for a year away. american media is talking about this. it just started. i heard a cnn reporter say that your brain was a peaceful country jump. i just laughable. i mean, the act would there have been so many dads in 1000 gone after the fact that nato expansion has been taking place. there has been the island weapons into injured to them and retinue, russia blockade. i've made this analogy many times, but we have many spanish speaking people in the united states. did you imagine there was a judge in some state or where, where governor was writing and tickets and ignorant court received language. this would be rightly oh and the number of the apps that have taken place. and don, back shelling, use of purpose rounds to attack civilian. russia has shown quite a bit of restraint. now they waited years, you know, they, they, they wanted me to reintegrate back injury. right. and one of the medical records to

be recognized and we carry through. so the way american meat is representing, just regularly outrageous. but what area is it seems like it's not only an attempt to russia, but they want to ask like they, they don't want this with the end and gone. exactly. i really, me go to you in london at this munich security conferences here. of all people come out, harris was there and she was telling the media that there hasn't been a war in europe for 70 years. but there was a nature war against the former yugoslavia that was one. and as caleb is pointed out for 8 years, the don bass was assaulted in every way possible here. where is the context and all of this? this is what really frustrates me. i can understand people that are very frustrated with this situation, even against russians, military operation, i can get that, but i don't get people that want, don't want to put it into context. you put it into context for us. go ahead. i

think that this is what you just said, just portrays the whole the united states in this whole conflict between russia and ukraine. i mean, getting out the context out of the equation. it makes much simple for this whole style actors and mainstream media to lie about this conflict. i mean, we know that the has been banned in the, in europe. and it also suggests the fact that the voice is all voice is, was trying to put, i mean, this conflict in the framework which started in 2014, i myself was a why been in your credit in 2014, i prefer a research paper for the house of lords and for the bo group. i suggested that if the united states in particular and the west also called collective west, were

a lot of the table and negotiation table about the ukraine, and it's ukraine being neutral. so be joining the nato. it will cause a very huge frictions. and this is the outcome of the previous common taste is what he said. this was meant from the very beginning to escalate russia. and now, i mean with the lead up to the escalation, a few months later, months later, we could see that several european leaders, like mister schultz and micro on, was traveling as a messenger of the washington d. c. o president, buy them to, to put in more more accurately a somehow do the diplomatic moves and somehow break at the diplomatic deal. they showed the importance, the european union is impotent. it's a real,

to stand on their own feet when it's come to, when it's coming to the european security for framework. and these are the consequences of the european impotence when it comes to the fact we literally before our own eyes. we can see that the central europe is being turned into the another middle east, at many commentators and washington hopes are saying that they want to make ukraine . another of gun is a full president. put a bar, i'm not sure whether they will succeed. it will just hom, countries are, which are neighboring with ukraine like poland between you, perhaps hungary, which are the last lifeline i would say of the american hegemony this part of the world. but the ending, well, it seems to be very bloody, very gloomy. you know, my, i agree, i mean, michael a, i don't think the europeans understand what they're supporting here. i mean, mass migration. you don't know who these people are. the,

the presence in ukraine had been opened up. the convicts had been armed. i, it's all complete chaos. i mean, i'm tired, i've title this program failing state, and this is what the west is doing is promoting the failure of the ukrainian state . go ahead, mike. well, yeah, i think, well, you can see it. it's been evolving ever since biden the administration came in and wanted to reassert leadership and nato. they've had to, ah, over, over, extend themselves and push. they actually pushed the nato countries into this the other as, as your previous guess, just pointed out, germany, france and the others who live right next door were much more cautious about having any kind of confrontation with her, with russia and, and, and as far as ukraine is concerned, ukraine has, has a actually violated its own basis for sovereignty, or from $199.00 nits in which they pledged even then the big non aligned. and,

and it was only in 2017 that they modified their constitution of join nato. again, pressure from the, from the united states and, and in the same with georgia. and they're going to be get it and, and they knew go full. well, they were very wide eyed about this, that it was gonna create a problem and it was a red line for moscow because of the it insecurity, the lack of in the visibility that has been talked about since the founding of o, s. c, e and and in, in which they talked about not, not increase in the security of the west at the expense of the east. and that is exactly what happened after 1997. when we are, nato expanded into it, into the east to them central and eastern europe. and this, this is all the, at the behest of the united states,

not the countries neighboring ukraine and russia. and this is the, the, me give them a gun and kayla before we go to the break here. cale, by the drill sample here. ah, the u. s. political elite and nato, they want russia is an enemy, it's a handy enemy to have. that's what they want. to say they've actually gotten what they designed, go ahead. sure. i mean, if you look at this in light of the u. s. senate domestic events with the economy crumbling and lation biden is very much following jimmy carter, friends, big emergency script and we talk about afghanistan. yes, they force their forcing a situation where russia asked to basically intervene and russia has to have a red line in your brain and intervene. and now they are whipping up is syria against russia. scape goat, russia, blame russia with the economic problems. it started long before long before this escalation, recently seen, and they can, they can play up the idea that russia is the aggressor and that seems to be the

idea of states. i also, caleb, it solves a lot of biden's domestic problems, doesn't it? sure. i mean, biden biden can point to russia as the state for his failing administration and can try to, you know, you know, with public plus you have the of the memories of russia, gate and linking his don't mess with. right. caleb, i have to jump in here gentlemen, we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the situation in ukraine state with our ah, ah, ah,

a wrong when old rules just a to shape out. because the african and engagement equals the trail went so many find themselves well to part. we choose to look for common ground. i thought it was just all as your busy menu, how many times go to with this with you? i'm with you. i'm with

royal hope a wage can still with school chris. yes. good from beach though, the still these with this patient, but i'm in the board with

a welcome back to cross hock. we're all things considered on peter level to, to remind you we're discussing the situation in ukraine. ah. okay, let's go back to our guest in london. you know, and watching cable news in the us and it's all emotion. it's all hysterics. but very few people are looking at the strategic ship center going on how the world really did change on the 24th of february. and it will, i would submit to you and the effort to isolate russia will have a boomerang effect. i think europe is going to find itself very much isolated and with very few policy options because it's now total absolute complete total dependence on the united states and the united states will use europe for its own purposes, not for europe's own interest. i submit that to you, go ahead again. i agree of your pizza. i mean it's,

it's astonishing is astonishing to, to see such great western countries like france and germany allowing to, to this happened to europe. i mean, we know that asia is a economy economy power has shifted to asia and what this conflict it's telling to the asian economies and great powers in asia like china and india is that they don't. i mean they, they can't trust the west really. and they will do whatever it takes to prevent this mess or curing in their hemisphere. i would say also the narrow mindedness of, you know, putting this in very, very narrow context. strictly western or european context is simply not right. because we can see that china is unwilling, i mean, i would say global se unwilling to sanction or vote against russia because the

world or international community, as they say in the western media, all in the western price, it's much louder than, than the united states. and it also states in europe, but people don't get it. they don't understand, they can't see beyond west and you are, you was dollar dominance. i mean, this is the, the fun to fundamental problem with germany off the ad bretton woods a financial institutions including i am a, well, people can't see beyond it. that the unit polo moment has. i mean, the beginning of the end of the unit a moment started, i would say with you as we drove from from a gun it's done. and now the ukrainian problem all ukrainian and the situation is and now the nail in the coffin of the u. s. for germany, so u. s. a. germany is willing to drive the truck down and tie the western hemisphere

. i mean, to, you know, to, to, to be defeated or being a partner in debt can relate to defeat rather than allowing europe to look towards a, towards the story and for stage longevity, i mean the west is dine, let us be honest. the people are the countries like india, countries like a parking spot, are not willing to listen to the countries. i mean, the detect dictatorships in the united states, even middle eastern countries like saudi arabia, all, and the rockies are most recently. they will not be good to get a phone call from a president biden, but they get a phone call from the president put in. so please shoot a lot about the ships on the global chess boat, all geopolitical chessboard, but people in western europe in europe, in general, having a very difficult time in understanding the world is changing and

the world is about united states. i think it's going to leave them behind michael, that basically the same question to you because you know what we're having now, we'll talk about the swift system and all of this. well, the chinese already have one. now the russians have their own version. they're probably going to connect them up here. there's going to be a lot of to economic distortions. but at the end of the day it's, it's building a world beyond the west. and in this, a gemini is not going to be worth much. go ahead, michael. no, no, you're absolutely right. this is the actually the actual launch of the multi polar world. i agree. i agree that week with that we've been talking about actually for more than 2 years, even on this program. and i, i've gotta tell you that mr. mr. potent probably thought that after a series of warnings over time and read and i'll talk about red lines that he made a decision to, to go eastward. and this is what's happened. he's basically cut off the west. the

is, is he's done with the west and that was, that is now very, very clear. and he's now looking eastward, and i think that the f a and in post afghanistan. and the fact that the, even the by the administration can, are trying to resurrect a dying nato and the e u cracking up. you're going to c e u countries now beginning to flake off and start head a more to eastward because that's where the market is going to be. it's not going to be in the u. s. and they're going and looking at michael, i would, i would add to that and this was my own particular thing here. i think it's dig, do use blankets, word over used and abused word values because there's a lot of conservative people in eastern europe and there they don't like this woke, is them from brussels and all of that. i think all of this add together here. caleb, let me go to you. i mean a, this is the great separation right now and you know what? personally, i'm not against it. okay. i actually been talking about it, particularly with michael on this program for years. that this is

a separation that's going to have to happen. it started go ahead and new or in, or will wall street in london. very much want to keep the world poor so that they can stay rich. it's about dominating the mark. they can't stand the fact russia as big oil and gas rewards or saying competition with wall street in london, oil and energy companies are they can't stand the fact that china or phones are wiley, technology has them. apple, american producers do. they don't want the competition or they want the, the state for and they look at the origin economic union and the belt road initiative. and the fact that countries are rising up out of operating in alliance with russia and china. and they can't stand. and that's really what is underlying all of this at the end of the day. it's about holding back. economic is our, there is a feeling in particular among now what you call the anglo american establishment tickler faction of old wanting it was in the united states. you talk about the rocket dollars, i even talk about, you know, wall street and we are in with silicon valley. they think the world needs to stay

for they don't want competition. they think there are too many people in the world . they're going to drive living standards down, and this applies to the united states also. i mean, look across america right now. the roads are crumbling. you know, our educational system is in shambles. the population is suffering, life expectancy is dropping. there was a time where they needed this prosperous american middle class, you know, the american green, the americans many been canceled or tried lower than the american working class to lower conditions and driving down living standard. and a lot of people around the world and a lot of people here in the united states, i don't want to stand for, you know, they look at what's going on in russia. i feel good and they see, you know, whereas there's a lot of capitalism coming out of us society. yeah. let me go to a drill in london just to echo what caleb said. i absolutely agree with them here. that's why you have to attack descent. if you have a different opinion, we have a different opinion about what's going on in ukraine or any other major foreign

policy if you're or domestic january. thanks. ok. now it, this is all very, very convenient. it's a very broad brush to, to silence people. ok. i mean, what are t america was shut down because it was a dissenter. ok, go ahead in london. but this, this moves not just another example of the well being desperate because they very well well know that most of people are not getting the implement only from the mainstream media because they know that they've been lying to that. i mean, for over, i mean, for many years. so that's why they're afraid of the fact that even the average people average joes are getting the news from via various of different sources. and they are not, you know, biting debate. they know what is happening and they are frustrated and angry with president boynton. i mean, even today was some outrageous headline in daily mail here in the united kingdom

saying that perhaps putting it to be blame for covet 19 i'm in the search of a new u. k. i mean, how stupid one can be. i mean, i was so happy to read the commentaries under the article the, you know, pregnant people not buying this because they know that they are just desperate to like, i think that the most extreme one i've come across them was a few months ago. maybe last i was some kind of you case i to said aliens will not want to visit earth because russia is an aggressive country. i was probably new york times. i was in new york times. it was the opinion piece from i forgot the name of the out of ok. well i got to story, right? i got the story right. michael way in there about civil liberties here. because, you know, it's very interesting is that we had russia gade and then we had cove it day that we have ukraine gate to point out. i mean constant tension, always making people afraid. ok, this is what they want. and those that speak out,

you know, because they, they, they, they doubt the status quo. they must be silenced. they have to be made invisible. go ahead, michael, are, you know, our 1st amendment, which allows for free speech is being shut down. and it's not just by government any longer. i government can shut down r t if it wants to, because of some violation of some relic, the cold war regulation somewhere. however, companies, big tech is now getting into the game of silence. seemed descent of it, m am cancelling, you completely ruining careers. we're seeing this left and right, and there's no no way to defend against that except to go underground or create an alternative or an alternative world order if you will. but we're coming to that, we're coming to that point and, and this country has to come so polarized, because of it and, and in any descent, is looked upon. i mean, when,

if you disagree with the policy, for example, if the, during the obama administration, you are a racist. well, no, we're not, we're not racist. and this is how they, they squelch descent and, and, and, and anybody who raises a question about anything. and we're seeing that even more pronounced today. again, the racism cart is being played very predominantly here to the point it has diminished the entire meaning and intent of racism and to if it. so if you descent in any way you are a racist you are. yeah, you are your cancelled, and it was any of the last crime. let me give the last word to caleb. you know, i'm, i'm, i'm in a weird way. i'm still on twitter and i'll tell you why i get notifications. and then when i hit the, you know, the notification, i can't see it. okay, i'm not allowed to post. i can't go to the home page. it's some kind of cruelty. they just keep sending me the notification and then facebook. i doesn't work. ok for me. um, they've silenced me, but at least i have this,

i hope the i hope to be able to keep it. last word goes, do you, caleb? 15 seconds. well, keep larry is emerging and merging in terms of information as well. and silicon valley is not going to be able to dominate or make too much longer, that we, the alternate is what are in facebook that are emerging in this crisis is escalating the need that more they tighten their breath shut down on, isn't abused. more people are going to turn elsewhere and they're going to lose their monopoly. ready on spreading information over social. yeah, i, you just, you can only blame russia for so many things. i suppose that's all the time we have gentlemen many, thanks them i guess in washington, new york and in london and like so our viewers are watching us here. darky, see you next time. remember cross stuck with

ah move when i was showing wrong when i was just a shape out because the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves well the part we choose to look for common ground.

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