ah, it's all had extremely inflammatory, makes to say the least and it's unclear if the shelling of the compound that i mentioned at the very beginning. we'll scare or re energize brazilian. want to be radicals. does it for them? is this our stay with us throughout the day here on our to international as we have more coverage of the war in ukraine? ah, ah, when i was shooting wrong, a sheep out

because of the african and engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves will depart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, ah, ah. hello and welcome to cross stock, were all things considered? i'm peter lavelle since the start of russia's military operation in ukraine. the west is talked at russia and russians, russia side of the story is essentially absent and intentionally. so. on this edition of the program, we talk with 2 preeminent russian scholars about their own country and ukraine.

ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, dmitri so sloppy is the deputy director of the central for comprehensive european international studies at the higher school of economics. and we also have maxine swartzkoff, he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow. the institute of international relations are gentlemen cross that rules and the fact that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate or i would start out with maxine, you know, maxime last few weeks have been tumultuous and so many different ways. and i was a educated as an academic historian of modern european history. and i used to teach how the per say of the per sy system failed in gave us the 2nd world war. and now i look at the system that was made primarily exclusively,

actually by the west of the, in the post cold war order. that order has failed. and institutionally, it's failed, ideologically. it's failed. and so where do we go from here? because institutions, at least the way i look at it would be russia or in tatters. go ahead, max will remember in late 90 eighty's, in early 99 is francis alma rode. he is famous at the end of history essay. and i think what we're observing now is yet another end of the end of history, in the sense that, you know, back in the day the argument was that the world kind of found it's ideal framework for development, the liberal democracy market economy. what struck me over the past week, and that brought me to think that we are now seeing the end of the end of history. that the, the 3 countries, the united states turned to, to seek to undermine russian going to group on energy markets and on the world.

we're iran, saudi arabia and venezuela. i think the end though, they're all great workers of the russian federation. but for years, the united states have sanctioned them and blamed this how it is in particular for human rights violations and all kind of stuff. but right now it appears that you know that the bad is called good when the worst happens, according to the u. s. logic, but i think it's sense the signal to the rest of the world that there is no such think is what, what value base foreign policy. and what we're seeing is interest based foreign policy and it will be in this particular conflict, will be settled on interest based solutions either for war or through balance of interests. me to, you know, one of the things i find very interesting is that when you look at the cold war in the, in the post cold war order that ended, in my opinion on february 24th. you know, it is a system that they had a hedge on that they basically called the, the, to the terms and conditions of engagement. but now we're going back to great power

politics the way it has always been in history. i think the know that it was the, the cold war and the post cold war order. and they were anomalies in history and, and i think that, you know, a citizenry doesn't understand that most of academia is politically driven, but we're back to great power politics. go ahead. i think that we're witnessing the with the local to international relations and certainly of the periods which began with the soviet union is now over. there was a pretty abnormal period in the history of international relations. well, the united states with the count of allies try to universalize a value system, so serious of institutions and establish basically if you more system worldwide. now it for, it's clear the american foreign policy is changing really drastically. and i also

witnessed the end, or at least of course, a significant force in the value based off of the, of the united states. this is a certain continuation of the trend which began with donald trump and continue with joe, why them with united states. and it expands the system of u. s. a. u. s. live alliances will be actually cancel the policy of for regime change in the other congress. i also see limits to the u. s. power to the u. s. a. to, to lead, to act as a be level of hedge more because the level of huge amounts they produce global public goods. and they offer something good, something positive to the congress that they would want to engage in their system.

what does the united states offer now to congress? the washington wants to support the u. s. at them to contain russia. what does the united states offer? 2 countries like china, india, brazil, except for threats, except for black male in the threats of new thank since the sanctions nothing. it means that you know, the united states of course remains a leader and the kitchen wall. but for a very limited number of countries, especially in europe and some countries in asia. but as for the rest of the world, we're really watching the birth over new international system over new era in the development of the international system, with much greater pluralism ever since with much greater independence

in terms of the posters, or maybe with different sets of i institutions, you know, you mentioned the end of history here, i'm kind of, i'm kind of curious how we got here. so it might seem, it's the end, it's the end of whose history i think it's the end of the west narrative about international politics. kind of agreeing with dimitry because you know, it, there was always this attempt to graft on russia making part of the, the, the, his, the, the west believed in itself. and then this attempt also to deal with china and we've, we've seen obviously they doesn't work. i mean, russia very forcefully is balked at that. ok. and the chinese are watching very, very carefully. they're watching how the end of ones there's what's the new one part of the world's history. and now we have to start to another world's part of

history. i think that, you know, we're seeing the end of something and then the beginning of something, go ahead. why don't disagree with that and to talk. and then, you know, speaking of china, i think there is a really interesting concept that's giving direction right now is what the chinese are now trying to substitute the concept of the soft power, you know, coined by joseph 9 and early 9090. and that was dominating the r theory for, for a long while. they're now trying to promote their own concept of the so called discourse power. so basically they say, you know, there is, doesn't really matter what types of soft power tools you have. what matters is that you said the narrative that you set up the discourse, and that was going to matter right now. and i think we're observing a lot of over the crisis in ukraine. you know, they've got the battle of narratives and the one, actually, you know, both the united states and russia are, in a way, speaking to their own audiences. you know,

that's why there is this wide spread argument that russia is one losing the information where it is losing the information. we're in the western audience. well, at least the, you know, as, as we see here, but we are doing quite well according to americans own estimates in the, in the rest of the world. and, you know, you know, russian narrative gets picked up in india and china in other countries. and that, i think also is quite different from what we've seen over the past few years. and they know, coupled with these well what, what will appears to be the further detail arise ation of the global global enemy. you know that the, the, a lot of people in there now, mean, you know, the sanctions on the, in the russian all adverse which in my view we're doing a lot of favorite touch of the russian economy, frankly, bought a lot of people and typhoons all over the world are watching this, careful and thinking, well maybe we shouldn't be investing all that much in the west that you know,

even one day our assets will be free. so just like that. so has been, is way look what happened, did their goals? ok, exactly. ok, it, it limit with change gears a little bit or, i mean we talking about control of discourses and narratives here. but to me 3, it's very coercive to quote unquote western values because to control the discourse or control the narrative, you resort the censorship. i mean, that's what we've got here. i mean, if you do not get on board with the official narrative, you're an enemy. it's not like, oh he just or she disagrees. no, there is a moral value put on it. you are a traitor and it's very terrifying. because that is in complete juxtaposition to what the western tradition is all about. so i would say by a, using these are narratives in a very forced way. but it's

a very cool course and i'll come on the values you claim to upholds. go ahead to me . well, i think that we are viewing a combination of factors on the one hand, of course, the west remains dominant in the global narrative makes in the western narrative continues to prevail in the global system. this is why we see such and great informational war against russia. actually, information is one of the few elements of power where west some of them are still maximum. but all the other hand, i completely agree of the use of usage of this narrative. actually, accusations of the congress that do not want to cite with the west and remain either neutral or friendly towards russia,

increases the gap between the west of the rest. and one of the most prevailing and dominant them says in international relations nowadays, is the acceleration of this gap, right? we are on the one hand course. the west continues to the collective west continues to, you know, to come together to go solidly and consolidation of the west consolidation of the prominent allies and powers together with the united states congress like germany, japan and so on. this is indeed one of the most important elements of international relations nowadays, but on the other can get this. will this consolidate the west of the majority of international relations? because huge, right? and this includes china, this includes india, brazil, the overwhelming majority of the african countries, including south africa, bricks,

countries, altogether. this includes the overwhelming majority of the countries in the middle east and latin america. so the west consolidates but kind of isolated from the prevailing majority in the world and the more your so the western black male is informational narrative. the usage of economic instruments such as sanctions, the wider is the gap. so yes, the waste remains immensely important. of course, with so many trans or informational narrative, but the role of lation the world in all the western the world. a consolidation is a pirate, our gender. and we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break,

we'll continue our discussion on some really st. ah, ah ah ah ah

. ah, welcome out to crossed up. were all things are considered. i'm parallel. this is the home edition remind you were discussing some real news. ah. okay, i'll right before the the break. i'm actually one of the jump in, i could see your lifting your figure finger go right ahead. i will, i'll just going to say that the, the line, sir, actually

a little more blurred these days than jesse no say that the russia and west and the rest because inside rush, other lot of people who are sympathizing with western our western agenda and in the west, there are a lot of people who are sympathizing with russian agenda. you know, i've had a i've, i've spoken to a colleague in dawn bass with a few a few days ago. and he remarked something very important that struck me his saddle . we're seeing a lot of russians are seeing the story that the russians or what's happening in the cray. and this is striking to us because we've been dying for 8 years for the right to be called the russians. you know, we, we see it is striking a striking difference even within society. so i think where we're seeing a lot of this fractures inside these groups, you know, the less than the rest. what we're always with this kind of complex is going to be even within society, is going to be a lot of differences, which is at the end of the day healthy. ok, but it's painful as well. i mean,

when i enter a ministry law for minister law, a r t, very interesting interview a few days ago. and actually i have to say, i really enjoyed it because he basically said the russians relations of the west have come to an end or a part of a freeze. let's put it that way. and it's really up to the west to approach russia if it wants to have a relationship to the outside world. that it seems almost absurd. but if you look at the context in this, everything is context. it does make sense. russia tried to play by the rules, the rules kept changing. russia agreed to things and then agreements change. and so what's the whole point? we saw this from december of last year, all the way up to february 24th. you gentlemen. so all of these are prime ministers and presidents, foreign minister, all coming to moscow for all for now, because they weren't willing to listen, they weren't willing to negotiate. and that's how we've gotten to where we are now

. go ahead. well, peter, i fully agree with a sense of the whole paradigm of the whole body of russian west relations, or which which existed over the last 30 years is know that and we are viewing not just political relations, but all the comprehensive system of links and interactions being just burned out, which includes economic relations, a humanitarian relations tourism. cultural educational ties, everything for me personally, you know, i was born in st. petersburg and for me, a very indicative moment was well filled. the size of to cancel the food relations between 2 and petersburg. these brought relations were established in 1963 with the city of land and nothing later, you know, including the oxy green, you know, soviet invasion,

inter of get nothing preventive. the continuation of those brother relations, but today you decide to cancel them. so all the body of relations is now burned down in these the very paradigm of russian and directions with the west is or which was the paradigm of russia or west centers. i, in russian foreign balls, russia really rise to establish something common european security system. and many other things with the western europe. you know, in mind in mind is not the price to integrate into the western system. it failed. after that, russia has been trying to establish some sort of you some sort of arrangement and agreement on the rules of the game between russia and europe. it also failed. and ultimately, russia was compelled, you know, to ensure if interest, unilaterally,

with, with the use of military force. so this previous paradigm with russia rise to find some models. but then the some recommendation with the west is, or we are at the 0 point. what come comes next? actually div depends on the, on the west and the major alternatives of this. alternative number one. we come from this 0 and the stablish some peaceful coexistence model with very limited amount of interactions with very limited agenda, but still very important. and so, just a stability to conflictual, you know, managing arms, race, arms, control, preservation of some elements of interaction with human, a better relations come back to normal when it comes to tourism and other elements . this is one of those which is of course much more preferable. the other alternative, if the west decides to continue to build

a war against russia even beyond the end of the military conflict in your credit or no, no sanctions i've been repealed, or at least grandmother if there's still a huge political attempts to complain. russia to isolate process, to destroy the russian calling me in the end of a war, you claim that it is another read. it is the paradigm of the continuation of war through more legal means. and then unfortunately, we will ultimately face for escalation. let's see if we take the, the 2 paradigms, the 2 that the 2 options that we just heard. it seems to me, there is a continuation from the end of the cold war to the present. and then it alternately is forced bridging change and russian. i think it's going to be number 2. well we'd,

what we just heard is that there's, but this is all part of the continuum. and this is war. it's see, this is one of the things i think we, i think that the populations, particularly in the west, they don't understand that word anymore. war with russia. the west is at war with russia right now. we don't want to use that word because everyone thinks that i'm looking for more. but we're all, we're up to that point. and this is an economic war and information war. now cutting civil society con everything. ok, i don't see why it's going to say that won't stop. i mean there has to be in it's a gemini, doesn't appreciate barriers it will resist and continue your thoughts. well, i agree i, i'll just to draw your attention to, to import in my view things one is, remember the, the war in syria and all the massive information pressure campaign on russia that

you know, that virtually hold it, of this policy of regime change in the in the middle east, the past week president assad traveled to the united arab emirates for the 1st time . which, you know, i think, is remarkable progress in and, you know, how russia sees things in the middle east in particular. and, you know, in kind of, in defiance of all the western policies over the past few years. and the 2nd thing is anyone still talking about the think of the political interference that is dominated us russian relations over the past 4 or 4 years. you know, that the, the crisis in ukraine makes it look like it's a totally normal tool, a foreign policy. and we remember that a lot of things were slipped on russia for political interference. you know, and russia spoke about, you know, america's interference now and remember like, oh, huge of in big of a deal that was, you know,

that the russian political interference, all kind of stuff. now all of that is throwing under the bus because there are other, more important things on you're talking about rushing. yeah, exactly, exactly. right. so what i, what i'm trying to say with this is they're big things to dominate rush west relations. and, but you know, what we're seeing now is really reality check of all the things like what's, what's really, what's really important. and i think some new type of relations will emerge from, from, from that. and the key moment to me whether the west would be willing to come to terms that russia is, is, is in, well, italy was called appear. power competitor is how much the west will a will get heard with these policies and conversations and other things. it is doing not russia is the one of the work itself is doing. and, you know, i mean,

you can easily imagine how the quote unquote regime change in russia will, will, will, will, will happen a lot later than the quote unquote regime change in the united states. that it's such an interesting point for, you know, the us and its allies have a very long history of sanctioning countries, basically cannot defend themselves. ok, but they can't defend themselves militarily. they can't defend themselves economically. and that we have a g 20 country that is being fully assaulted. and the fact that it is an important country and the international system in every sense of the word there's going to be blow back against the west. i mean, you can, you can contact panama, it's not going to change the future of the western hemisphere. ok, but when there is a breach like this on this, of this scale, the blow back is almost, it's almost impossible to determine at this point. it will ricochet per year. we'll see, go ahead, jump in. well,

because i think that this is precisely one of the major factors why peaceful existence model might, for in russia, western relations after the end of the war, a continuation of total economic war attempts to isolate russia diplomatically will backfire. they have a limit to start far, you know, the, the west just completely exhaust of the potential for those sanctions. the door back, right. the west is now why the instrument such as great war, you know, i, a cancellation of rushes, most favored nation status in trade, which boise global economic go and switch, destroy the w jo global economy and destroyed the dominance of the us dollar in global finance. so on the one he, i'm the united states for instance,

really supports the continuation of war in ukraine and prevents a weak political resolution to be cheap. on the other hand, the continuation of war means innumerable, number of refugees, which are called in 1000000 small in a, in hundreds of thousands, which is an enormous pressure on the west. them, economists, the destruction of the global economy might result into hunger, not just the, the deficit before, but fewer hunger in many african countries, which are dependent on the import. so we've done so far. it means also enormous integration into the west european competence, right. and they need to think about this. so in order to remedy to manage those challenges, they must come to the new terms of relations with russia. of course, the paradigm relations will continue to be confrontational,

but peaceful coexistence in the previous school was also a part of buffalo because we have run out of time, gentlemen, but i always tell western policy makers, be careful what you wish for. that's all the time we have gentlemen. i think my guest here in mosque, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. next time. remember across ah ah ah ah, ah

ah, ukraine refuses to accept russia's plan for evacuating civilians from mario pole where an estimated 130000 people remain stuck amid intense fighting. this is my vest, my coverage. i am not going to be wearing it because it's hard to sleep instead, i think it's going to serve as a well more or less suitable pillow argy reports from the outskirts of chia where russian and ukrainian forces are getting ready for a fight. farmers truckers and trade unions to take to the streets of europe to protest against soaring prices due to sanctions imposed on russia over the ukraine conflict. and archie obtains evidence that the u. s. was pushing ukraine to lower rush.