particularly in the iraq war and in the setting up of get low and all of that. and by the time you get to 2001, it's already this cultural artifact. and so it is going to be picked up by by anyone for any purpose. mm. mm for kind of people held before carnival are not there because they stole the car. they are not common criminals in their enemy combatants and terrorists who were be detained for acts of war against our country. and that is why different rules have to apply on to the continuity is extraordinary. if you look at

a sketch of the cubicle and of the student volunteer and mcgill university, and then if you look forward to 2002, when the 1st al qaeda suspects are being confined at camp x, right? at guantanamo bay there and goggles gloves. and here, most that look, god, just like that 1957 sketch in after 911. all of us working at p h r. i realized that there would very likely be a huge problem of interrogation. gone wild, meaning torture, cruel in human and degrading t treatment. the

use of extreme isolation was one of a range of techniques that were employed by officials interrogators and so forth. literally starting all the way back in 2002 for many, many days. and that is just unbelievably destructive and i was the 1st to really learn to go down there in the commission process in a 4 to 6 months period. you see a market deterioration in many respects. we if you're a year or 2, it's solitary confinement. you're going to ask the defendant for the 1st time in 2 years to, to, to interact with other human beings. beyond his lawyer and his jailers. it's going to be the jury that's going to decide his life. he's going to be put on the stand. and that's where he's going to speak for the 1st time to the world for 2 years. if

to be shut off from the world, it's impossible who who has been 9 years and active duty and then i'm still in the reserves in 2011. the department of defense assigned me to assist on the team representing allergic mohammad. the, the lee defendant in the 911 case, what i can say is that the u. s. government has acknowledged that for the period between 2003 in 2006, mister mohammed was held at, has certain undisclosed foreign locations, black size, otherwise known as flexes. it was what a boarded over $183.00 times as correct. i can say that

there is a no most between the department of justice. i various organs of the us government from cuba, department to fans, the central intelligence agency, as to what types of enhance interrogation techniques would be authorized for certain types of detainees who when they began concerning an animal that i am moved to having psychologists do interviews with patients discover individual flaws, individual sources of trauma and security. and then they, they also discovered because they were germany with arabs and muslims. ah, the muslim nails are uniquely upset by nudity, and also by female physical contact. and fear of dogs

race has always played a role in american tortures. the american torture techniques are part of old military punishments, punishments that were used on slaves and, and, and you might find that strange, but there was one area where slaves were never whipped, but you use clean techniques on them. they didn't leave marks. and that was, if you're going to sell a slave, because a slave that had with marks means that they were not going to obey. and so a clean slave was passed, so got a higher price in the cotton industry. in the southern delta states of the united states depended completely on torture. over the course of, for decades human beings by using their bodies as a technological form. as

a no logical machine were able to multiply by 8 times the amount of cotton an individual person could pick in a single day. so the use of torture is absolutely tied at the very beginning ah, in these kinds of cases many people in the system and the people who are imposing these conditions believe that ordinary punishment is too good for these people. and a lot of it is about the other dis of them religiously, ethnically, nationally, culturally, it's easier that it would be to someone from your own community to to that.

so in guantanamo the secretary of defense rumsfeld appointed a commander jeffrey miller, whose job was to extract information. and jeffrey miller made up a cd or staff did. and i included a rack and are under the oh, with the permission of the commander there. general sanchez. e then can rent training sessions for the interrogators and the staff at abu ghraib prison, or he transmitted the guantanamo techniques to the abil gradstaff. basically, the restraints were removed and they were told to get results. the

thing that became so clear is that what united states was doing was not a secret. it was hidden in plain sight. it wasn't really until the photographs from abu ghraib were released, which were just, you know, the tip of the iceberg of what was actually happening. that people in this country began actually talking about it what we did in a lab was exactly what to do. and the buyer to welcome in all over the recommend exactly the right. same course of actions that we did exactly

verizon them all. not all of them i can differently whether one is 1600 of them. we've only seen up in about 20 maybe 30 is 1600 and the the worst ones are, are the ones we haven't seen. ah so and yes they were violating a lot. i regulations in what they were doing,

but the that they were operating within a system in which they were condition they were structured in order to violate those laws when you arrived at the wave where you aware of what had happened there. oh, almost immediately after we arrived i would grab, we were briefed that there was misconduct, but we weren't given details. and the interrogators that i knew who had been there during that time didn't. they didn't talk about it. so we, we didn't know, i learned everything through the news. we understood the geneva conventions to mean that absolutely. you know, you, you, you couldn't, you, you couldn't harm anybody in your care that your primary responsibility was their well being rather than putting them in distress. but then we were confused, and then of course we got these memos from the justice department and from the

pentagon. ah, authorizing the use of much more harsh techniques. we started adopting those techniques when i was stationed in mosul. among them were, stress, possession, sleep deprivation. ah, inducing hypothermia to say in any way, we can put them in distress using dogs. this is, this is a foot cell called slippery slope so that they take the gloves off policy allowed american interrogators from going from a certain list of techniques that were let's say aloud. and even those were already torture to doing extreme things, rape and sodomy in, you know, at the most extreme forms of physical and psychological brutality on

st. oh, is your media a reflection of reality in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way or are you being led somewhere? which direct? what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend

a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah with industry to restock and just look up some of novels only a muscle is onion noon. she kitty doesn't being in the green shield or a nurse to me as possible. mama cook gas gosh, sit to somebody, tamika, but i to his ashley of this. it wanted to work with $1.00 to $3.00. if it's sort of cool. jason admitted to you, but now it's not looking for the chain of times to not work for phones or something like that. and then we got that voice id. that was the more it's a residential grain. lisa have

a nice another. why you, why do you easy while finance? oh yeah. oh you said one slide yes, south. yeah, thrashing south and there was actually bethany ga carson boys now watch them up all mutable. upright pizza is. amelia bulgaria. from sheila, this is kim's room. she thought that it says the why, the ela, a bill that's my thought or janine burgundy or

fortune very up my be a lot about it more than just the natural you can just torture somebody on a whim without knowing how to do it. and the reality of course, is that torture like any physical skill right? requires training, requires practice. it requires an institutional setting, a built environment really, you need to have this institution, my space, physical space in which you can perform torture. we want, you know, we, we want to be successful. i was against the war. i'm a liberal, i didn't vote for george bush, but i wanted to do my job. well, you know, i felt like, you know, if i can be successful and get intelligence from these people and we can in the or

quickly and that would be better for, for iraq, better for, for osman. the people who are for in recent days has been a focus, a few who have betrayed our values in solving the reputation of our country. and we have 6 or 7 investigations underway and a military justice system that has values. we know that those in law whoever they are will be brought to justice. i was angry at our leadership because i knew that they were prosecuting interrogators and guards and leadership wasn't being held accountable. i i, i was disappointed in myself and our behavior were there was terrible.

so i was, i was, was very angry when the, i have a great trial happened. but i, i got a call from the lawyer for chip frederick. and he asked me to act as part of the defense team. i said, well, the person that you should really talk to is embargo. he ran this, experimenting the 19 seventies and the situations at abu ghraib as far as i can tell, are those conditions that are also reproduced in zimbabwe experiments. chip, frederick, he's the man here. oh, he was the one who had the idea of putting electrodes on the hood. his lawyer said, the problem now is the military want to use him in a show trial in baghdad. in abu ghraib, not only not a single senior officer went to trial. not a single seni office. they got

a recall letter of reprimand. in fact, in some cases they even got promoted. that the, the offices. so it's, it's the people at the top always take care of the people at the top. mm. for those individuals who were directed by the us government to, to engage in any technique that i believe would price level torture, crore and human or degrading treatment. i think they lose a little bit of themselves every time they have to come in and human act. and my power is out to them as well. i frankly in i don't think i noticed that until i got back and then you know, like tremendous guilt. and i think a lot of us develop signs that were later diagnosed as p p. s. d,

but i don't know. i think that they have another name for now and i think it was, it's called like moral moral failure. so to assistance is feeling that people come back with after being in war. if they feel like they think they've done things better outside of their moral compass, ah, we're still evaluating how we're gonna approach the whole issue of interrogations, detentions, and so forth. and i don't believe that anybody has babylon. on the other hand, i also have a belief that we need to look forward as low as possible, looking backwards ah,

will look forward backward. well, forward is going to be like backward. if you don't do something about what happened to the past, nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past. and for this, among other people, i fault. president obama, essentially he gave everybody, dick cheney donald rumsfeld. he gave them all a free pass george w bush. they're all going to be rehabilitated. they're all going to be treated as great statesman. one day. i mean, they gave president obama a nobel prize for not being george w bush. the question, of course, the world that dancing around with, you know, we're avoiding as does it work as torture work doesn't work. people that have information that are part of an underground apparatus, a terrorist organization, revolutionary organization accomplished organization, whatever organized form of collective alan chip. i b,

they won't break now. and the people that you pick up that are innocence. yes. you tell them to pieces, you'll destroy them, you will ruin them. i think that a few of the people that passed passed through my hands as an interrogator did have intelligence. but mo, the vast majority of the people that i dealt with work just being picked up because they were males of military age and they were just get swept up. and these raves, i don't think torture is always being used as a method to gain information or, or confessions. it's often just been used are out of, out of anger and fear. for

right after september 11th attacks, september 11th, 2001. a very well known harvard law professor islander shall, which came up with the checking bond theory. and he said, so what happens for example, if a terse, as a ticking time bomb a small nuclear bomb in times square and upon sticking. and we only have so much time, we must torture. and then you know, the show $24.00 of course started every segment. well, that giant clock ticking away. and it kind of gave visual reality visual imprint that resonated with this discussion of ticking time bomb. in addition to the way that it framed our reception of torture on a popular level,

just among the civilians in guantanamo itself, they were getting pressure from the department of defense and they have these meetings. and in the meetings they screened the 2nd season of $24.00 and use that as a jumping off place to decide what tortures what methods they were going to propose to donald rumsfeld that they would use against the people they were holding in. guantanamo, i think, was very influential on the people that i worked with. i know that some of the techniques that people wanted to use they had, should they had seen on television programs. for instance, i mentioned to you our leaders wanted us to mark and mark executions and also using electricity. and these were things that they had seen on television this . i mean, no, no one trained us on that, but it wasn't. that was simply from color. here in the united states,

we have this picture of torture as something that is done by the lonely person, the lonely hero, the man who does it more in sorrow than in anger because he is absolutely forced to because so many lives depend on it. is willing to take the moral stain and the moral pain on him. and in order to save all these people, there was always this anxiety and american politics. which is that democracy kind of makes, makes weaker and less capable of taking the real things that real men should be able to do. there is a very gendered, masculine este sort of notion behind this real men, torture and and, and democracy makes of sissy's too. in the middle east, we have people shopping the heads off christians. we have things that we have never

seen before. i would bring back water boarding and i'd bring back a hell of a lot worse than water boarding. we're hey, if you're in your terrors, b would be a free trial. detention in m. c. c. turn south for 2 years. there. go to the where would you say that the manhattan m. c. c. is while he done in plain sight, a black sight, an american fine. yes. i would say it's a black side that the sense of the black sites that people are be taken out and tortured, but they're being tortured in the way that our daily lives are being managed or not managed. they're not living a day without a life. they are a, a neglected product in a warehouse where there's no maintenance, you know, i mean, even as like the most,

it's the most sole engaging place i've ever bid. one of the things that we need to consider now and has become quite an issue, is how many of these soldiers who used to participate in these kinds of american techniques are now policeman and immigration officers who manage mexicans and hispanics and other sorts of things. integrations. today, there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques, including freezing rooms, sleep deprivation, all these things are now being used on, on, on immigrants and children. so this is one of the terrible things about techniques is that they circulate between war and home and whatever you do in war comes home move. ready ready ah,

if we keep torture clean, then we can feel that the thing that's being done to protect us isn't really so bad . we have become used to the idea that it is a legitimate moral stance that we do anything we need to in order to feel safe to feel secure. i mean a bizarre way. it's as if the government is trying to make a deal with us. you let us do whatever we want over here on the dark side, and in return i promise you will never die. it's like this fake promise of immortality. but of course, what time on the history of the american empire, a certain 50 years from now, historians might have to say, as french historians have said about french algeria. that something was lost in the russian branch of torture. the moral authority that made america war later sacrificed for this the shamira of effective interrogation.

ah, [000:00:00;00] ah, ah, ah, with just look up from when literally a muscle is around noon. she kitty doesn't being in the green shield on obnoxious

to me as close to mamma could go through shift to somebody to look at that this ashley of nbc, one or the with the one to move 3 3rd of cool position with you. but now it's not, but the thing for the chain of times can that'll work for phones or something like that. and then we got at that point, did that with that ah, more than a century ago marked when remarked that god created more so that americans would learn geography. and few u. s. officials have done more to put that into practice than my guest today. former us national security advisor and former use ambassador to the united nations john bolt and has supported all recent american lab wars. he's absolutely appalled

by russia's actions in ukraine. why is that? ah, ah, ukraine's president zalinski suggests that nato has been too faced in its approach to his country, telling him privately that ukraine could not join any time soon while publicly keeping the door open. i'm being told that every day, more and more such trophy weapons fall in the hands of the russian troops are to take a look at 8 years of western arms applies to ukraine, believed to have fuel at the conflict in the country. you countries are split over whether to impose an embargo on russian oil. as politicians say, the measure would severely impact the blocks economy and rules for