ah, ah ah, what is it in poland? joe biden said aloud. what many in russia have long believed nato eastward expansion has always been about force regime change in russia, and ukraine has been at the center of that strategy. when people tell you who they are, believe them with a, with

i'm african retention, you're watching going underground. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, despite nato nation in the you, censorship. but until then, we'll be showing some of your favorite shows a for season so far. time after attention, you're watching a special edition of going underground. as to day bach is sunny by minister him on con, is scheduled to pay a visit to russian president vladimir putin in moscow. the 1st time about his family premieres visited russia in over 2 decades. this is so gold peacekeeping, russian troops headed to the breakaway regions of ukraine. donetta come to ask the president putin and the russian parliament recognized as independent, but can a full scale war be prevented? long time russia report or an eastern european specialist editor in chief of be any in tele news. been iris jones. we now from berlin. have been thanks so much for

coming on. i've got to ask you, i suppose i was there any choice for put in the 14000 dead the a continuous shelling that the ukrainian military spokesman said it's fake news is emphasized. we do not choose an infrastructure into some territory roster of region or whatever. that's a goal to add to didn't got any choice but to do something after the do more also voted for him to recognize the independent republics. well, my take on this is that there's 2 camps. i mean, those that believe the doesn't believe ukraine is a real country and he's help and on storing it, that he feels the democracy that is threatening him. and then those who think that puts in is what this says in the can this about security concerns. he's afraid of eventually missiles in ukraine, and those would be on the border. they would have under 5 minute flight times and they'll be able to hit 80 percent of russia's population. and although nobody's

offering ukraine membership of night, so at the moment, you know, it could happen eventually, and he's looking to one central fix this. and so this is resulted in a game of chicken if you like, in so much as he made those demands in the round pharmacy that started in january, a relatively civilized around and got a flat note from the west. but he's not going to let this go. i mean, for him, this is an essential security question and he wants to have it resolved. and so the obvious thing to do is escalate. and that's what we've just seen. if he's getting a flat now, then he's going to restart the conversation by significantly escalating by threatening to hire off another piece of ukraine in the form of making its own best . that i scanned the guns in independence and the tensions have gone up radically. and moreover, it's been quite clear that russia would get sanctioned as a result of this. he's prepared because way i see he started this in 2007 and

munich when he warned that russia would push back if nature continued to expand and it did so, then he started modernizing the army in 2012. he sacrifice the prosperity, russia sub during the boom. yes, for this effort and builds up, what is it? $630000000000.00 are reserves and insanely huge amount of money paid off the debt. the russia is one of the lowest that and me, the whole economy, sanction proof. and he's going to go all the way because there's very little leverage. i mean, harsh sanctions are coming. i don't believe they're actually going to hurt the economy in any significant way. they'll raise costs, they keep growth low, but he's prepared to do all of that because he's totally focused on solving the security issue. because, you know, agree with him or not. he has to be in his bonnet about nato expansion and the threat that poses. and so he's decided to do something about that. that's the reality we have to deal with the goods and things like that. and i think he engage

in come to some sort of deal, but it's come down to a fight between his pragmatic security concerns versus principal on europe side, about the sovereignty of nations. being able to choose who their partners are. and seeing threatened by russia, which is threatening, i mean, what he's doing is extremely aggressive. this is the most serious crisis. i think the west is phase since the cuban missile crisis and 62. well, all that showing up this over well fund will come as a surprise, given me in a quote to the poor of russia. obviously, given the rise of inequality in russia over the same period, arguably, do you think, lee, and i mean, you alluded to russia not getting a fair hearing. do you think? when's the lensky who had previously been saying, telling by nature leaders, stop causing panic to the or grading economy? do you think when he started talking about nuclear weapons, positioning in your grain?

that was the last. that was the last straw for food. i think the last row was when he, well my crime shows during this european effort that's been going on in february both when says and then sky and told him that you need to do the means to agreement . that would so everything. and moreover, you need to on the times russia once, and that would be to make don't bias, you know, thomas region which gives russia the fact of b. so nights. and zalinski flatly refused to do that. more of a code to means to agreements back. it's a waste time and i think that was the point where it's in so that that particular possibility of getting into 2 increments because he clearly so shows an micron. but if you get minutes to implement it, then that will solve it, will be happy, will go away, you know, withdraw from the bus stop interfering with that didn't happen. and that meeting at

the end of last week was and then ski made it clear that he wasn't going to budge on that question. then the next day, all of the problems in dumbass flat up and clearly the criminals been planning this . so the jim about in order to recognize, to republics, this is a car that's been prepared and was played and they put it in a position to make the decision that he's just made. and i think that they've planned out the whole diplomatic effort very carefully. well, in advance, so it started with the demands of december and then you had january round of diplomacy, which is largely focused on the u. s. hoping that biden would be able to push this through. when i felt then you have your opinion around focused on mints too. but i think last week, zelinski definitively shut that off and said, we're not going to. why would he? i mean, the grain is run like the comedy series zelinski was in showing the ukraine to be enough to leak or up all the go run her whole country of

conspiracy, and this is like zelinski comedy series. who is, can, why would you lensky, do this to his own country? then? what do you mean? give up the dumbass? no. why would he not abide by the men's agreements? and it's a horrible deal. i mean, you're asking, give to basically give up any control over one of the regions. i mean, it becomes autonomous. and then if there's a vote for night, so a session membership, then dumbass effectively gets a veto. and quite clearly with, you know, the 700000 passports that rushes handed out, half the population of that region. russia isn't effectively in control of it. so you give up the ability to make these decisions by nights session, which is in, you know, the aspirations, joy nicer is now in the constitution as a national aspiration in the basic law. and then to give up the power to be able to fulfill that by basically giving control about agents rush. although normally it

stays inside ukraine, i think is something that now government would accept. well, it was voted for you and security council by britain, russia, france, and i signed the deal. i mean, that's the problem. it's the ukrainian signed, signed off and agreed to it. but then a single himself, when, when subsequently he resisted every stage actually implementing it. i mean, it was forced on him by mac and 2014 to end the fighting that was going on and on bass. and it wasn't so much to fight and die down. it's just been a sort of frozen conflict. although people keep dying, but it wasn't a hot conflict in the way that it was. i mean, it was, you know, proper oakmore fair in those days. now it's just this frozen company. so it's a sort of lose lose situation with the minutes to that. it helps to bring the fighting down, but at the same time it doesn't. it's not an appealing solution for that. they don't want to do it. and moreover, people and can't say,

should zelinski try and push it through. there would be mass process and i was also kill his own kind of career he's facing actually this year. and it's a political suicide to try and push that through. so it's really a bad deal. but as i said, it was the only thing on the table that was the solution, the peaceful solution, unless he's rolled out. and i think quite understandably, but then since reactive, because the decision is pushed and takes it to the next stage, which is not quite the invasion, the war that everyone's been talking about. but it's certainly going well be on diplomacy, you know, the regular sitting around in the pals. and i should just say, obviously london, moscow and what to do support means to still even moscow. parallels with the recognition of kosovo, which russia has always criticize that kicked off. you just love you wore in the cost of it was just unilaterally recognized. right. and bad is western europe.

well, i think so. i mean that one of the points here, i mean one, and one of the basic problems is that, you know, you have geo politics going on with big countries, tell little countries what to do. and then you've got the principle, the helsinki process, where the southern states are guaranteed right, to make decisions for themselves. and we only are civilized, well, they should respect that. and the russians, i think, feel there's a certain amount of hypocrisy here. i mean, a foreign minister brought up the key miss crisis. that was very clearly you had a sovereign nation, cuba deciding to ally with his friend, the soviet union and except missiles on to his territory. and jeff k just was like no exception that threatens us security. and so the whole cuban missile crisis thing started and pigeons arguing that what's going on with the crane is exactly the same that you've got ukraine that's being used as an unsinkable aircraft carrier. more along the shores of russia, that's going to be

a permanent threat. and so big powers. and the way they just stop is that no 2 nations can do a security that threatens the security of a 3rd country in this case, russia. and that's their argument, but then we come back with saying that will international politics change that has them now since you process means that you should respect the sovereign right? a country like you trying to do a military alliance with whoever it wants to without any interference. and so there's a basic, i think russia is obviously going to get on doors and date in venice or, and syria county is that the west coast of it was an example, and it is big, ours deciding what little parents do. so that's still the way the world works when it suits us, when it doesn't, then we come with the principles and take off a. and the other point here is that the west feels that you know is economically, militarily superior russia, so that it doesn't need to be pushed around. but the problem with that is that

putin is extremely talented at making trouble. and that's what we're seeing. i mean, biden was trying to get rid of the rush of problem to focus on china and what's happened, but his entire foreign policy has been captured by russia and his entire foreign policy effort is now totally consumed with dealing with russia. so chris is had a victory and already in so much is that he's put this gender on the table and biden concert more, and it's not going away. and the people in europe seriously worried having a war in that back geography, they really don't want. well, they, people in europe, you speak of just seem to just supple washington all the way through and whether it's biden or jake sullivan, around 3, blinking i was a different different masha and i suppose the propaganda war now is all about the fact. russia is also broken, it's agreement to the budapest agreement that it made of a ukraine and respecting crane. and so isn't that why am zalinski brought up

nuclear weapons? and so much as part of that agreement was that ukraine agreed to give up its weapons under the budapest, in return for territorial guarantee by russia. and morgan zalinski was saying there is that russia then ignored that guarantee it gave am best and shined in the, in the budapest memo. and it's the same. well, if you're going to ignore your part of it, then we'll like more out of it and react with nuclear weapons. it's the threats and the criticism. men are self stop you that more from eastern european specialist and editor in chief of be any italian use up to this great ah

ah mm. in a ah, welcome back. i'm still here with been our season european specialist and editor in chief of be in the, until the news now on to the actual sanctions announced by the british government. some of them just following entities that are already sanctioned by the united states. so may i ask, why did they not sanction the murray or if you have sanctioning them? who is getting ready to change the vulgar group? i understand that they have a 23 percent stake in nova tanks, russia,

2nd largest gas producer construction. they own a rail company. timber infrastructure project is always going to affect many workers in russia. what were you going to mean to him? and boris rothenberg and his nephew, i go and be back there. rush, his biggest ox and moreover they belong to who to circle the incident in a so they've known who since they were all in st. petersburg young man and have grown up together. and then when pushing came to power, the 1st thing you did in the 1st year, you had this famous art meeting and pushed all the, all the gods out of the permanent. except these are, the gods have stepped in and they the most to call them the kings, the state contracts, they win all these contracts. for example, the $4000000000.00 bridge that was built between crimea and russia to think it's the mainland was built by these guys that construction like psycho over here in

britain. i mean, the other oligarchs are kicked out will ones who also benefit from the shock therapy of western business consultant and the privatization that they were a corrupting influence. i mean, because these people are close to and personally i was, and some of these big stay on contracts needed to be given to someone. and so who was in a circle and in a way it was a way of controlling corruption. and so much of the other oligarchs were all charging rents and stealing for themselves. and these guys who are multi billionaires in the mean time because they were friends with boots and he could trust them to do the right thing. and so they were paid handsome profits, but they weren't necessarily sort of filling their pockets in masonry way either way. so they didn't pick on them, like he picked on the ones that property that of the privatization because of the they obviously property as well though. yeah, they did, they didn't know. i mean, you know, it's, it's of nepotism and very least. i mean it's,

it's an uncomfortable relationship because these guys extremely close to put in that they go and hang out a statute that we can. but, but it's done now is targeted the closest interest to person and, you know, they have assets in k houses and what have you. but they're so incredibly wealthy if they lose a house in grove square because it gets these. but you know, it's not exactly going to bloody than us. so what they're doing there won't be any investment obviously, from these big companies in british infrastructure or that sort of label. there isn't, i mean there's lots of us money coming in in the real estate market. i mean, it comes up to prices. but again, according to deutsche bank, you know, russian money in the real estate kind of 15 percent of the market. so it's not really going to have the british market but, and they don't really invest an industry in britain either. and it's more property is more lifestyle,

it's them personally. but i think with the sanctions in britain is making a point symbolic gesture going off the people closest to put in. and they're going to cause them inconvenience because they won't be able to go to london. it's going to make any difference. you don't ask, ask, now it's not, it's symbolic. i'm going off to the banks again, it's the same sort of thing. it's going to be an inconvenience and it's because of the ownership of those banks that are being sanctioned. like i said before, the sanctions i think are in effect to because russia as chris prepared to sell. so the west has very little leverage over them. so what they can do is punish and annoy him. but it doesn't really go beyond that. it's not about cleaning all the view of the british government. they obviously think sanctions are a useful tool and i should say, joe, all the rotten words deny all wrong doing this might all this actions, but i mean, one of the banks problems with the bank as part of the be known by the european

bank of reconstruction and development, i don't know whether people will understand that and they have millions of deposit is obviously in russia. so that means that if they have relatives here, they can send money and things like that. but that's a special case in so much is in 2017. i think it was a crisis in these books. 9 has gotten ring banks and that was one of them. i went down and got taken over by the central bank of russia and it's been restructured. and that one's been read off to as now stay and, and it's been really tough to specifically from the defense industry. so it's a military bank. now it does all the arm stills and facilitates all those deals and, and russia exports $15000000000.00 worth a year. so it's a big business. i'm, so i would be to sell some escrow accounts in london for dealing internationally. i mean, russia, russia, so around the world is a huge contracts with india, with china, with brazil, with london. so what's the point of this thing?

if you go off to the bank, i mean, it's part of the international financial system. and if you block business in london, that's a serious inconvenience. i mean, it's the same with the states. if they put sanctions on the bank, then you can also sanction anybody who does business with it. and so if a u. s. sanction on a russian bank, that's effectively a global bank on using that bank at school. so that it's not stupid. i mean, if they go after it's going to have to find another bank student business based. right. well, of course, the big story is the delay announced by a love sholtes with a it's a delay. but it's another review, isn't it? it's not actually a cancellation. well, i understand just having no stream to gas pipeline is complete. it has been since september is full of gas. it could be turned on literally tomorrow. however,

it was waking, waiting for the german, regulates. it's given. approval has to check to make sure it's not going to have european interest. and what the german government has done is removed one of the documents that gives it permission to function. and because of that document is now missing, there's an incomplete package, which means the regulator cannot approve it, it becomes impossible. so effectively they've killed it for the mean time, i mean that there's the option of retaining this document and then it will be back on. so you can see it maybe is as a bargaining chip or just to be clear. so while that is the aid north stream to is delayed, the gas supplying germany from russia goes to pipeline existing biplane through ukraine, north stream one. in fact, no, this is just a pipeline. so this ukrainian or the central root that runs from western siberia through cranes here. and then as the north stream rose the northern route collection of pipelines and they were in the north stream,

one runs out of the boats in no string to goes alongside. and that they are unaffected, i mean, no stream one is up and running and full capacity and has been and nobody is complaining about. so what difference does it make to russia if the gas is still being piped through ukraine and through these baltic republics, that are old gung ho with getting into a lot of detail the know stream pipelines that connected to the new fields in the fields and the cranium, pipe is connected to the m p t fails, which are in western siberia. now those fields almost to places and then very old. and guess from how to triple investment in to the mpg just keep production flat, whereas your mouth is full of brand new fields full of gas. so russia wants to, from a business perspective, change to mal, which is a 100 years with gas, whereas the b team with inside there is to run out of gas. and more times go,

i don't know, 5 years. i mean, like i said that the investment going into those fields to keep producing is going up and up and up. so it becomes less and less profitable. whereas the mount fields with brand new pipelines are extremely profitable. so just from a business perspective, russia wants to switch to these new fields. and the problem is that you can, the mount fields are not connected to the new cranium, but you can sell and send this oxy gas through the cranium, but we'd have to build a whole bunch of interconnections which don't exist. or these 2 are a small, it's the in the short term in the short term, the guess is just flowing through grain from russia. yeah, no, most of it is going through well, no stream and there's another northern pipeline. so there's about 40000000 cubic meters going through ukraine, and then there's another 100 this going through these other pipelines to the north . they've got ukraine on a minimum now. and the training system could carry 150. so it's being used

at the absolute minimum by russia, as part of a political process of trying to get everyone this way. everyone's 10 law stream to on, which would totally, it could take up all of the volumes that are going through right at the moment. could be if you had no stream to working, then there would be no gas going through kind of so all the see the green economy already suffering that you believe they would say. and the russian economy being helped by the spiking oil prices. what do you saying about our journalists in this country, and what are you saying about the role of this information oversee ukraine is closed down 5 channels to start with. and i believe there was to close this channel down all around the world. what is the role of information? how should we and people watching this program understand media coverage of this conflict with how the senior crane rush story in particular is that it's become

very emotional. you know, we've had like 20 years or less 15 years of demonizing goods. and which itself is become a great story that you know, the edison believe lying even puts in south papers which is probably true to an extent. but the objectivity to some extent has gone out the window because various races have developed. and those were narratives get fed and then again, a lot, you know, then the number of foreign correspondents in moscow is very small. and a lot of people are writing about russia from the outside, then what they do, what they know, their entire background is based on the rates that they've had. you know, what we do is we have, we, you know, we live that we work there and we trying to balance story and there's lots of good things that happened in has doubled the size of the economy. incomes have gone from $10.00 a month when he took her to same level is learned at the you the most prosperous of all of the former soviet union countries that didn't join the years. so there's

been successes. but at the same time, you know, he is who he is, former k g b officer up in the soviet union. and so he's this figure sort of caught between these 2 wells at the same time on the other sides because of the decaying relationships that he's being progressively demonized. so we have this expression puts in russia in so much is the implication there is, there a country belongs to him. he runs it like a zach and he's aggressive and k g, b, and shoots journalists and crushes the opposition. and some of that stuff does happen is not entirely reform country. and that's the narrative. she gets tolls and the other stuff. the success is the transformation gets ignored. some of the business pester it, but when you look at the market, the market. so the way in russia has been so recently the market loves russia, so the back story is contained within banking samples and dad l. that's all seen as propaganda. as you know, that said for one of your favorite shows of this season,

the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look. but until then, you can keep in touch viral on social media if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch all going underground episodes on odyssey that are tito come see evasive. ah, now with the african and engaging in the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground.

oh, well, visiting poland to bind you said aloud, what many in russia have long believed nato eastward expansion has always been about force regime change in russia and ukraine has been at the center of that strategy. when people tell you who they are, believe them with just look up from when levels only a muscle around noon. she doesn't being in the green show on a nice to me, but i feel mom cook that's gosh 6 to 70. to cut that i to his ashley of dc. wanted to work with cool position, did you? but not but the key for the children's can that work for phones or something like that. and then we got that with

that. have that ah, concerns mine to over alleged work, dr. is a after on verify video emerges on line claiming to show ukrainian forces shooting and beat things russian prisoners of war ahead in the program, putting an end to the crisis and dumb boss on the demilitarization of ukraine. russian foreign minister, surrogate, love, raw fight lines. the goals that moscow was, again, seeking in its talks with tia this week and an interview to serve in media. we must make sure that the west a native stop trying to acquire ukraine, the physical and military threat against russia. so that ukraine says this to be a country that is constantly militarized on russian troops. raid the house of a ukrainian far right battalion come.