[000:00:00;00] hm, i mean, ah, i mentioned retention, you're watching going on the ground, the team, and i will be back soon with a brand new look, despite nato nation and the you censorship. but until then, we'll be showing some of your favorite shows a for season so far. i'm after retention, you're watching special edition of going underground. as today, back it's sunny by minister him on con, is scheduled to pay

a visit to russian president vladimir putin in moscow for the 1st time about his sony premier's visited russia in over 2 decades. this is so gold peacekeeping, russian troops had into the breakaway regions of ukraine on yet can to answer the president putin in the russian parliament, a recognized as independent. but can a full scale war be prevented? long time russia report or an eastern european specialist editor in chief of b. any in tele news been iris joins me now from berlin. have been thanks so much for coming on. i've got to ask you, i suppose i was there any choice for putin, the 14000 dead, the a continuous shelling that the ukrainian military spokesman said it's fake news. we always emphasize, we do not shoot at civilian infrastructure to some territory and roster of region or whatever. that's a pavlov gobbled, shook ad putin got any choice, but to do something after the doom are also voted for him to recognize the independent republics. well,

my 2nd this is that it's this 2 camps. i mean those that believe the person doesn't believe ukraine is a real country and he's hell bent on destroying it, that he feels that democracy is threatening him. and then those who think that puts in is what this says on the can this about security concerns that he's afraid of eventually miss out in ukraine, and those would be on the border. they would have under 5 minute flight times and they'll be able to hit 80 percent of brushes, population. and although nobody is offering you crying membership of night, so at the moment, you know, it could happen eventually and he's looking to once and for all fix this. and so this is resulted in a game of chicken if you like. in so much is he made those demands in the round pharmacy that started in january or relatively civilized round, and go to flat, know from the west, but he's not going to let this go. i mean, for him, this is an essential security question and he wants to have it resolved. and so the

obvious thing to do is escalate. and that's what we've just seen if he's getting a flat out and he's going to restart the conversation. but by significantly escalating by threatening to hire off another piece of ukraine in the form of making its own best. that i scanned the guns in independence. and the tensions have gone up radically. and moreover, it's been quite clear that russia would get sanctioned as a result of this, but he's prepared because way i see he started this in 2007 to munich when he warned that russia would push back if need to continue to expand and it did so then he started modernizing the army in 2012. he sacrifice the prosperity russia build up during the boom years for this effort and build up. what is it? $630000000000.00 are reserves and insanely huge amount of money paid off the debt. the russia is one of the lowest that and me, the whole economy, sanction prove. and he's going to go all the way because there's very little

leverage. i mean, sanctions coming. i don't believe they're actually going to hurt the economy in any significant way. they'll raise costs, they keep growth low, but he's prepared to all of that because he's totally focused on solving the security issue. because, you know, agree with him or not. he has to be in his bonnet about nato expansion and the threat that poses. and so he's decided to do something about that. that's the reality we have to deal with the goods and things like that. and i think he engage in come to some sort of deal, but it's come down to a fight between his pragmatic security concerns versus principal on europe side, about the sovereignty of nations. being able to choose who their partners are. and seeing threatened by russia, which is threatening, i mean, what he's doing is extremely aggressive. this is the most serious crisis. i think the west is phase since the cuban missile crisis and 62. well, all that showing up this over well fund will come as a surprise,

given the quote to the poor of russia. obviously, given the rise of inequality in russia over the same period, arguably, do you think, lee? and i mean, you alluded to russia not getting a fair hearing. do you think when zalinski had previously been saying, telling biden, and major leaders stop causing panic to the are grading and economy. do you think when he started talking about nuclear weapons positioning in your grain? that was the last. that was the last straw for food. i think the last row was when he, well my crime shows during this european effort that's been going on in february both when says and sky and told him that you need to do the means to agreement. that would so everything. and moreover, you need to on the times russia once, and that would be to make don't bias and autonomous region,

which gives russia the fact of the so nights. and zalinski flatly refused to do that. more of a code the means to agreements back. it's a waste time and i think that was the point where it's in so that that particular possibility of getting into 2 increments because he clearly so shows an micron. but if you get minutes to implement it, then that will solve it, will be happy, will go away, you know, withdraw from the bus stop interfering with that didn't happen. and that meeting at the end of last week was and it made it clear that he wasn't going to budge on that question. then the next day, all of the problems in dumbass flat up and clearly the criminals been planning this . so the jim about in order to recognize, to republics, this is a car, this being prepared and was played and they put it in a position to make the decision that he's just made. and i think that they've planned out the whole diplomatic effort very carefully. well, in advance, so it started with the demands in december and then you had january round of diplomacy,

which is largely focused on the u. s. hoping that biden would be able to push this through. when i felt then you had to european round focused on mints too. but i think last week, zelinski definitively shut that off and said, we're not going to. why would he? i mean, the ukraine is run like the comedy series zalinski was in showing the ukraine to be enough to leak or up on the go run, her whole country of conspiracy, and this is like zelinski comedy series. who is, can, why would you lensky do this to his own country? that what do you mean? give up the dumbass? no. why would you not abide by the men's agreements? and it's a horrible deal. i mean, you're asking, give to basically give up any control over one of the regions. i mean, it becomes autonomous. and then if there's a vote for night, so session membership, then dumbass effectively gets a veto. and quite clearly with, you know,

the 700000 passports that russia handed out half the population of that region. russia isn't effectively in control of it. so you give up the ability to make these decisions by succession, which is in, you know, the aspirations join nicer is now in the constitution as a national aspiration in the basic law. and then to give up the power to be able to fulfill that by basically giving control of that agents of russia. although normally it stays inside ukraine, i think is something that now government would accept. well, it was voted for you in security council by britain, russia, france, and i signed the deal. i mean, that's the problem. it's the ukrainian signed, signed off and agreed to it. but then a single himself, when, when subsequently he resisted at every stage, actually implementing it. i mean, it was forced on him by mac and 2014,

to end the fighting that was going on and on bass. and i said it was so much to fight and die down. it's just been a sort of frozen conflict. although people keep dying, but it wasn't a hot conflict in the way that it was. i mean, it was, you know, proper oakmore fair in those days. now it's just this frozen company, so it's a sort of lose lose situation with the minutes to that. it helps to bring the fighting down, but at the same time it doesn't. it's not an appealing solution. so here that they don't want to do it. and moreover, people and can't say that should zelinski try and push it through. there would be mass process and i was also kill his own kind of career he's facing actually this year. and it's a political suicide to try and push that through. so it's really a bad deal, but as i said, it was the only thing on the table that was the solution, the peaceful solution, unless he's rolled out. and i think quite understandably, but then since reactive, because the decision is pushing takes it to the next stage. which is not quite the invasion,

the war that everyone's been talking about. but it's certainly going well be on diplomacy, you know, the regular sitting around in the pals. and i should just say, obviously london, moscow. and what you can do support means to still even moscow parallels with the recognition of kosovo, which russia is always criticized that kicked off. you just love you wore, in the cost of it was just unilaterally recognized. right. and bad is western europe. well, i think so, i mean that one of the points here, i mean one, and one of the basic problems is that, you know, you have geo politics going on with big countries, tell little countries what to do. and then you've got the principal, the helsinki process, where the southern states are guaranteed right, to make decisions for themselves. and we only are civilized, well, they should respect that. and the russians, i think, feel there's a certain amount of hypocrisy here. i mean,

a foreign minister brought up the key miss crisis. that was very clearly you had a sovereign nation, cuba deciding to ally with his friend, the soviet union and except missiles on to his territory. and jeff k just was like no exception that threatens us security. and so the whole cuban missile crisis thing started and pigeons arguing that what's going on with the crane is exactly the same that you've got ukraine that's being used as an unsinkable aircraft carrier. more along the shores of russia, that's going to be a permanent threat. and so big powers. and the way they just stop is that no 2 nations can do a security that threatens the security of a 3rd country in this case, russia. and that's their argument, but then we come back with saying that we'll international exchange that has the mouse thinking process means that you should respect the sovereign right? a country like you trying to do a military alliance with whoever it wants to without any interference. and so

there's a basic, i think russia is obviously going to look at on doors and they, d and venice or, and syria. iran irony is that the west coast of it was an example, and it is big power is deciding what little patterns to so that's still the way the world works when it suits us. when it doesn't, then we come with the principles and take off a and the other point here is that the west feels that you know is economically, militarily superior to russia, so that it doesn't need to be pushed around. but the problem with that is that person is extremely talented, making trouble. and that's what we're seeing. i mean, biden was trying to get rid of the rush, a problem to focus on china and what's happened, but his entire foreign policy has been captured by russia and his entire foreign policy effort is not totally consumed with dealing with russia. so chris is had a victory and already in so much is that he's put this gender on the table and by the concert or, and it's not going away. and the people in your seriously worried having

a war in their backyard, which they really don't want. well, they, people in europe please make of just seem to just supple washington all the way through and whether it's by no, jake sullivan, around 3, blinking i was a different different masher. and i suppose the propaganda war now is all about the fact. russia is also broken, it's agreement to the budapest agreement that it made over ukraine and respecting, creating its owner. isn't that why am zalinski brought up nuclear weapons? and so much as part of that agreement was that ukraine agreed to give up its weapons under budapest, in return for territorial guarantee by russia and was, and he was saying there is that russia then ignored back guarantee. it gave a try. and in the, in the budapest, unless we say, well, if you're going to ignore your part of it, then we'll ignore our part of it and react with nuclear weapons. it's the threats and the criticism men are so i'll stop you there more from eastern european

specialist and editor in chief of be any and tell the news after this break with with with, [000:00:00;00]

with well listening bowen to mining said aloud, what many in russia have long believed nieto eastward expansion has always been about force regime change in russia. and ukraine has been at the center of that strategy. when people tell you who they are, believe them welcome back. i'm still here with been our season european specialists and editor in chief of be in the, until the news now on to the actual sanctions announced by the british government. some of them just following entities that are already sanctioned by the united states. so may i ask, why did they not psych jamalia or if you have sanctioning them who is getting ready to change the vulgar group? i understand that they have a 23 percent stake in nova tex russia, 2nd largest gas producer construction they own a rail company. timber of infrastructure projects is always going to affect many workers in russia what it was gonna mean to him. and boris rothenberg and his

nephew, i go of s and p back there and they rushed his biggest ox. and moreover they belong to the in circle the incident in a circle. they've known whose instance they were all in st. petersburg young man, and have grown up together. and then when pushing came to power, the 1st thing he didn't in the 1st year, he had this famous art meeting and pushed all the oligarchs out of the criminal. except these are the galks have stepped in and they, the embedded must equal them. the king's, the state contracts, they win. all these contracts. for example, the $4000000000.00 bridge that was built between crimea and russia to think it's the mainland was built by these guys that construction like serco over here in britain. i mean, obviously, the other oligarchs are kicked out will ones who also benefit from the shock

therapy of western business consultant and the privatization that they were corrupting influence. i mean, because these people are close to person personally, i was, and some of these big stay on contracts needed to be given to someone. and so countries in a circle and in a way it was a way of controlling corruption. and so much of the other all ago, we're all charging rents and stealing for themselves. and these guys who are multi billionaires in the mean time because they were friends with boots and he could trust them to do the right thing. and so they were paid handsome profits, but they weren't necessarily sort of filling their pockets in masonry way either way. so they didn't pick on them, like he picked on the ones that property that of the privatization because of the they obviously profit it as well though. yeah. they did, they didn't know. i mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's of nepotism and very least, i mean it's, it's an uncomfortable relationship because these guys extremely close to that. they go and hang out and stature that we can. but,

but it's done now is targeted. the closest interest to person and, you know, they have assets in the houses and what have you, but they're so incredibly wealthy if they lose a house in grove square because it sees but you know, it's not exactly going to bloody than us. so what they're doing there won't be any investment obviously, from these big companies in british infrastructure or that sort of label. there isn't, i mean, there's lots of us money coming in in the real estate market. i mean, it comes up to prices. but again, according to deutsche bank, you know, russian money in the real estate kind of 15 percent of the market. so it's not really going to have the british market but, and they don't really invest an industry in britain either. and it's more property is more lifestyle, it's them personally. but i think with the sanctions in britain is making a point symbolic gesture going off the people closest to put in. and they

going to cause the meaning convenience, because they won't be able to go to london. this is going to make any difference. you don't, it's going to ask, no, it's not, it's symbolic. i'm going off to the banks again, it's the same sort of thing. it's going to be an inconvenience and it's because of the ownership of those banks that are being sanctioned. but like i said before, the sanctions, i think are ineffective too, because russia as person prepared itself. so the west has very little leverage over them. so what they can do is punish and annoy him, but it doesn't really go beyond that. it's not that. i mean that's cleaning all the view of the british government. they obviously think sanctions are a useful tool and i should say, joe, all the rotten words deny all wrong doing this, right? all this actions. but i mean, one of the banks problems we has bank has partly been owned by the european bank of reconstruction and development. i don't know whether people will understand that and they have millions of deposit. it is obviously in russia. so that means that if

they have relatives here, they can send money and things like that. but that's a special case in so much is in 2017. i think it was a crisis in these books. 9 has gotten ring banks and that was one of them. i went down and got taken over by the central bank of russia and it's been restructured. and that one's being read off to as now stay and, and it's been reach us to specifically from the defense industry. so it's a military bank, now it does all the arm stills and facilitates all those deals. and, and russia exports $15000000000.00 worth a year. so it's a big business. no idea would be to sell some escrow accounts in london for dealing internationally. i mean, russia, russia, so around the world, it's got huge contracts with india, with china, with brazil, with london. so what's the point of this thing? if you go off to the bank, i mean, it's part of the international financial system. and if you block business in

london, that's a serious inconvenience. i mean, it's the same with the states. if they put sanctions on the bank, then you can also sanction anybody who does business with it. and so if a u. s. sanction on a russian bank, that's effectively a global bank on using that bank actual so that it's not stupid. i mean, if they go after it's going to have to find another bank, do business basic. all right, well of course the big story is the delay announced by a love sholtes with a it's a delay. but it's another review, isn't it? it's not actually a cancellation. well, i understand just having no stream to gas pipeline is complete. it has been since september for the gas, it could be turned on literally tomorrow. however, it was waking, waiting for the german, regulates it's given, approval has to check to make sure it's not going to have european interest. and

what the german government has done is removed one of the documents that gives it permission to function. and because of that document is now missing, there's an incomplete package which means the regulator cannot approve it, it becomes impossible. so effectively they've killed it for the meantime. i mean that there's the option of retaining this document and then it will be back on. so you can see it maybe is as a bargaining chip. so just to be clear. so while that has been laid north stream to is delayed, the gas supplying germany from russia goes to pipeline existing biplane through ukraine, north stream one. in fact, no, no, this is just a pipeline. so this ukrainian, or the central root that runs from western siberia through ukraine's here. and then as the north stream rose the northern route collection of pipelines and they were in the north stream, one runs out of the boats in no stream to goes alongside. and that they are unaffected, i mean, no stream one is up and running and full capacity and has been and nobody is

complaining about. so what difference does it make to russia if the gas is still being piped through ukraine and through these baltic republics, that are old gung ho with getting into a lot of detail the know stream pipelines that connected to the new fields in the fields and the cranium pipe is connected to the m p t fails, which are in western siberia. now those fields almost to places and ag, very old can guess from one to triple investment in to the mpg just to keep production flat. whereas yell is just full brand new fields full of gas. so russia wants to, from a business perspective, change to model which is a 100 years with gas. where is the b team with inside there's about to run out of gas. and more times go, i don't know, 5 years, i mean like i say that the investment going into those fields to keep producing is

going up and up and up. so it becomes less and less profitable. whereas the mount fields with brand new pipelines are extremely profitable. so just from a business perspective, russia wants to switch to these new fields. and the problem is that you can, the mount fields are not connected to the new cranium, but you can sell and send this oxy gas through the cranium, but we'd have to build a whole bunch of interconnections which don't exist. or these 2 are a small, it's the in the short term in the short term, the guess is just flowing through grain from russia. yeah, no, most of it is going through well, no stream and there's another northern pipeline. so there's about 40000000 cubic meters going through ukraine, and then there's another 100 this going through these other pipelines to the north . they've got ukraine on a minimum now. and the training system could carry 150. so it's being used at the absolute minimum by russia, as part of a political process of trying to get everyone this way. everyone's 10 law stream to

on, which would totally, it could take up all of the volumes that are going through. it could be if you had no stream to working, then there would be no gas going through kind of. so obviously the grading economy already suffering that you believe they would say. and the russian economy being helped by the spiking oil prices. what do you saying about our journalists in this country? and what do you saying about the role of this information? overseas grain is closed down 5 channels. so you can start with and a believe they want to close this channel down all around the world. what is the role of information? how should we and people watching this program understand media coverage of this conflict with how the senior crane rush story in particular is that it's become very emotional. you know, we've had like 20 years or less 15 years of demonizing goods and which itself is become a great story that you know,

this is believe lying even puts in south papers which is probably true to an extent . but the objectivity to some extent is gone out the window because various races have developed. and those were narratives get fed and then again, a lot, you know, then the number of foreign correspondents in moscow is very small. a lot of people are writing about russia from the outside, then what they do, what they know, their entire background is based on the rates that they've had. you know, what we do is we have, we, you know, we live that we work there and we're trying to balance story and there's lots of good things that happened in has doubled the size of the economy. incomes have gone from $10.00 a month when he took her to same level is learned at the you. it's the most prosperous of all of the former soviet union countries that didn't join the years. so there's been successes. but at the same time, you know, he is who he is for mc h u b officer up in the soviet union. and so he's this figure sort of caught

between these 2 wells at the same time on the other sides because of the decaying relationships that he's being progressively demonized. so we have this expression puts in russia in so much is the implication there is there a country belongs to him and he runs it like zach and he's aggressive and k g, b, and shoot journalists and crushes the opposition. and some of that stuff does happen is not entirely reform country because that's the no rates. if he gets told and the other stuff, the success is the transformation gets ignored. some of the business press to it. but when you look at the market, the market overweight in russia has been so recently the market love russia. so the back story is contained within banking. so that, that's all seen as propaganda. as you know, that's it for one of your favorite shows of this season. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch viral on social media if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch all going underground episodes on auto c,

a r t t dot com, see very soon ah, so called enhanced interrogation techniques used by us officials were basically designed as techniques to break down the human mind. if you force a human being to stay in a certain position doesn't take very long to the pain involved to become absolutely excruciating. but nobody clean things around you. you are doing it to yourself. and we started adopting those techniques when i was station in mosul, among them were stress positions, sleep deprivation. a 3rd is already beginning to be evidence

that these old techniques are now being used on immigrant children. whatever you do or more comes home. nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past. the moral authority, the made america leader sacrifice, but the shimmer sectors interrogate. so look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order is a conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence at the point, obviously is to rate trust rather than fear a job with artificial intelligence. real summoning

with a robot must protect its own existence with ah ah, ah hello and welcome to crossed out. were all things are considered. i'm peter level or visiting poland. joe biden said out loud, what many in russia have long believed nato eastward expansion has always been about force regime change in russia. and ukraine has been at the center of that strategy. when people tell you who they are, believe them, ah, there's just these issues and more, i'm joined by my guest,