[000:00:00;00] ah, i'm african retention, you're watching going underground team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, despite nato nation and you censorship. but until then we'll be showing some of your favorite shows a for season so far. time after attention, you're watching a special edition of going underground as today, back is sunny by minister him on con is scheduled to pay a visit to russian president vladimir putin in moscow. the 1st time about hasanti premier's visited russia in over 2 decades. this is so gold peacekeeping, russian troops had into the breakaway regions of ukraine on yet can to answer the

president putin and the russian parliament recognized as independent. but can a full scale will be prevented. long time russia report or an eastern european specialist editor in chief of be any in tele news. been iris jones. we now from berlin. have been thanks so much for coming on. i'm gonna ask you, i suppose i was there any choice for putin, the 14000 dead, the a continuous shelling that the ukrainian military spokesman said it's fake news. we always emphasize, we do not shoot that civilian infrastructure into some territory, roster of region or whatever. that's pavlov. global shook ad putin got any choice but to do something after the do mar also voted for him to recognize the independent republics. well my take on this is that it's, there's 2 camps. i mean, those that believe that boots in doesn't believe ukraine is the real country and that he's hell bent on destroying it. that he feels that democracy there is threatening him. and then those who think that hootin is what this says in the can

this about security concerns that he's the eventual missiles in ukraine, and those would be on the border. they would have under 5 minute flight times and they'll be able to hit 80 percent of russia's population. and although nobody's offering ukraine membership of night, so at the moment, you know, it could happen eventually, and he's looking to one central fix this. and so this is resulted in a game of chicken if you like, in so much is he made those demands in the rounds of diplomacy that started in january a relatively civilized around and go to flat, know from the west. but he's not going to let this go. i mean, for him, this is an essential security question and he wants to have it resolved. and so the obvious thing to do is escalate. and that's what we've just seen. if he's getting a flat now, then he's going to restart the conversation, but by significantly escalating by threatening to hire off another piece. if you crane in the form of the mechanism best that i scanned the guns in independence.

and the tensions have gone up radically, and moreover, it's been quite clear that russia would get sanctioned as a result of this. but he's prepared because way i see he started this in 2007 and munich when he warned that russia would push back, if nicer, continued to expand and it did so. then he started modernizing the army in 2012. he sacrifice the prosperity russia to build up during the boom years for this effort and build up. what is it? $630000000000.00 are reserves and insanely huge amount of money paid off the debt. the russia is one of the lowest that and me, the whole economy, sanction proof. and he's going to go all the way because there's very little leverage. i mean, harsh sanctions are coming. i don't believe they're actually going to hurt the economy in any significant way. they'll raise costs, they keep growth low, but he's prepared to all of that because he's totally focused on solving the security issue. because, you know,

agree he will not. he has be in his bonnet about nato expansion and the threat that poses. and so he's decided to do something about that. that's the reality we have to do with the boots and things like that. and i think he engage in come to some sort of deal, but it's come down to a fight between his pragmatic security concerns versus principal on europe side, about the sovereignty of nations. being able to choose who their partners are. and seeing threatened by russia, which is threatening, i mean, what he's doing is extremely aggressive. this is the most serious crisis. i think the west is phase since the cuban missile crisis and 62. well, all that and shoring of this over well fund will come as a surprise, given me in a quote to the poor of russia. obviously, given the rise of inequality in russia over the same period, arguably, do you think, lee? and i mean, you alluded to russia not getting a fair hearing. do you think?

when's the lensky who had previously been saying, telling by nature leaders stop causing panic to the are grading economy? do you think when he started talking about nuclear weapons positioning in ukraine? that was the last that was the last straw for food. i think the last row was when he, well my crime shows during this european effort that's been going on in february both when says and sky and told him that you need to do the means to agreement. that would so everything. and moreover, you need to on the times russia once, and that would be to make dumbass, you know, thomas reach in which gives russia the fact of the so or the night. and zalinski flatly refused to do that. more of a code to minutes to agreements back. it's a waste of time. and i think that was the point where it's in so that that

particular possibility of getting into 2 increments because he clearly so shows an micron. but if you get minutes to implement it, then that will solve it, will be happy, will go away, you know, withdraw from the bus stop in to ferry. so that didn't happen. and that meeting at the end of last week and then ski made it clear that he wasn't going to budge on that question. then the next day, all of the problems in the mass flat up and clearly the criminals been planning this. so the jim about in order to recognize 2 republics, this is a car, this being prepared and was played and they put in a position to make the decision that he's just made. and i think that they've planned out the whole diplomatic effort very carefully. well, in advance, so it started with the demands in december and then you had january round of diplomacy, which is largely focused on the u. s. hoping that biden would be able to push this through. when i felt then you have your opinion around the focused on minutes too. but i think last week, zalinski definitively shut that off and said, we're not going to. why would be, i mean,

the grain is run like the comedy series zelinski was in showing the ukraine to be enough to leak or up all the go run her whole country of conspiracy, and this is like zelinski comedy series. who is can, why would you lensky, do this to his own country than what you mean? give up the dumbass? no. why would he not abide by the means? agreements? it's a horrible deal. i mean, you're asking you to basically give up any control over one of the regions. i mean, it becomes autonomous and then if there's a vote for night, so session membership, then dumbass effectively gets a veto. and quite clearly with, you know, the 700000 possible rushes handed out, half the population of that region rusher isn't effectively in control of it. so you give up the ability to make these decisions last night. succession, which is in, you know, the aspirations join nights are, is now in the constitution as

a national aspiration in the basic law. and then to give up the power to be able to fulfill that by basically giving control about regions of rush. although normally it stays inside ukraine, i think is something that no government would accept. well, it was voted for it. even security council by britain, russia, france, and i signed the deal. i mean that's the problem. it's the ukrainian signed, signed off and agreed to it. but then pushing himself when, when subsequently he resisted at every stage actually implementing it. i mean, it was forced on him by macklin on in 2014 to end the fighting that was going on and on bass. and to that extent, it wasn't so much to fight and die down. it's just been a sort of frozen conflict. although people keep dying, but it wasn't a hot conflict in the way that it was. i mean, it was, you know, a proper open warfare in those days. now it's just this frozen company. so it's

sort of lose lose situation with the minutes to that it help to bring the fighting down. but at the same time it, it doesn't, it's not an appealing solution. so here that they don't want to do it. and moreover, people and can't say that should zelinski try and push it through. there would be mass process was also kill his own kind of career he's facing actually this year. and it's a political suicide to try and push that through. so it's really a bad deal. but as i said, it was the only thing on the table that was the solution, the peaceful solution, unless he's rolled out. and i think quite understandably, but then persons reacted because the decision is pushed and takes it to the next stage, which is not quite the invasion, the war that everyone's been talking about. but it's certainly going well be on diplomacy, you know, the regular sitting around in the pals. and i should just say, obviously london,

moscow and washington do support means to still even moscow. parallels with the recognition of kosovo, which russia has always criticize that kicked off. you just love you wore in the cost of it was just unilaterally recognized as western europe. well, i think so. i mean that one of the points here, i mean, one of one of the basic problems is that, you know, you have geo politics going on where big countries tell little countries what to do . and then you've got the principal, the helsinki process, where certain states have a, you know, guaranteed right to make decisions for themselves. and we only are civilized and should respect that. and the russians, i think, feel there's a certain amount of hypocrisy here. i mean, a minister brought up the cuban missile crisis and that was very clearly you had a sovereign nation, cuba deciding to ally with his friend, the soviet union and except missiles on to his territory. and jeff k just was like no exception that threatens us charity. and so the whole cuban missile crisis thing

started and pigeons arguing that what's going on with the crane is exactly the same, that you've got the ukraine that's being used as an unsinkable aircraft carrier, more along the shores of russia. that's going to be a permanent threat. and so big powers, and the way they just stop is that no 2 nations can do a security that threatens the security of a 3rd country, in this case, russia. and that's their argument. then we come back saying the international politics change that has and now since the process means that you should respect the sovereign right. other country like you're trying to do a military alliance with whoever it wants to, without any interference. and so there's a basic, i think russia is obviously going to get on doors and day in venice or in theory here in the west coast of it was an example, and it is big time is deciding what little parents do. so that's still the way the world works when it suits us, when it doesn't,

then we come with the principles and take a and the other point here is that the west feels that, you know, it's economically militarily superior to russia, so that it doesn't need to be pushed around, but the problem with that is that person is extremely talented at making trouble. and that's what we're seeing. i mean, biden was trying to get rid of the rush of problem to focus on, on china and what happened. but his entire foreign policy has been captured by russia and his entire foreign policy effort is now totally consumed with dealing with russia and had a victory and already in so much that he's put this gender on the table and bible concert more and it's not going away and the people in your seriously worried about having a war in their backyard, which they really don't want. well, they, people in europe please make of just seem to just couple washington all the way through and whether it's by no, jake sullivan around the blank. and i was a different different masha and i suppose the propaganda war now is all about the

fact. russia is also broken its agreement to the budapest agreement that it made over ukraine and respecting, creating its own isn't that why and ski brought up nuclear weapons and so much as part of the agreement was that ukraine agreed to give up its, its weapons. under budapest, in return for a territorial guarantee by russia. and he was saying there is that russia then ignored back guarantee. it gave a try and in the, in the budapest and it's the same. well, if you're going to ignore your part of it, then we'll ignore our part of it and react with nuclear weapons. it's the threats and the criticism. men are saw sub you that more from eastern european specialist and editor in chief of be any and tele news after this. great. ah, special operation might be new trade. however,

the war is against the west in january and against wold order, which we have for them when the special operation ends are going to change the future of ukraine. the doses, way the international relations are posted. we international financial system closed and the way actually in the countries down is russia. ah ah, needs to come to the russian state. total narrative. i've tied as i'm phoning the northland scheme div. mm hm. and i'm not getting host also send up for a group in the 55 with. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy. one else with we will van in the european union the kremlin, can you yep. machine, the state aunt,

rush up to date and split our t spoke neck, even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest. and we put the question, did you think it was chris with mm. well, visiting poland jo by you said aloud. what many in russia have long believed nato eastward expansion has always been about force regime change in russia and ukraine has been at the center of that strategy. when people tell you who they are, believe them welcome back. i'm still here with been our season european specialist and editor in chief of be in the, until the news now on to the actual sanctions announced by the british government.

some of them just following the entities that are already sanctioned by the united states. so may i ask, why did they not sanction the merely or if you have sanctioning them who is denied eaten chain go the vulgar group? i understand that they have a 23 percent stake. nova takes russia 2nd largest gas producing construction. they own a rail company. timber infrastructure project is always going to affect many workers in russia. what were you going to mean to him? and boris rothenberg and his nephew, i go a s and p bag. them. they rush his biggest ox and moreover they belong to who to circle the incident in a so they've known who since they were all in st. petersburg young man and have grown up together. and then when pushing came to power, the 1st thing you did in the 1st year, you had this famous art meeting and pushed all the, all the gods out of the permanent. except these are,

the gods have stepped in and they the most to call them the kings of state contracts. they win all these contracts. for example, the $4000000000.00 bridge that was built between crimea and russia to think it's the mainland was built by these guys that construction like stucco. over here in britain, i mean the oligarchs are kicked out well ones who also benefit from the shock therapy of western business consultants and the privatization that they were a corrupting influence. i mean, because these people are close to food and personally i was, and some of these big stay on contracts needed to be given to someone. and so, in sconces in a circle, and in a way it was a way of controlling corruption in so much as the other oligarchs were all charging rents and stealing for themselves. and these guys who were multi billionaires in the mean time because they were friends with boots and he could trust them to do the right thing. and so they were paid handsome profits,

but they weren't necessarily sort of filling their pockets and masonry way that other thoughts were. so they didn't pick on them like a big on the ones that profited out of the privatization because of the they obviously profit as well. yeah, they did, they didn't know. i mean, you know, it's, it's, it's of nepotism at very least. i mean it's, it's an uncomfortable relationship because these guys extremely close to that. they go and hang out and stature the we can. but it's done now is targeted the closest and there is to person. and you know, they have assets in the houses and what have you. but they're so incredibly wealthy if they lose a house in grove square because it seems, but you take on, it's not exactly going to bloody, they're not. so what they're doing there won't be any investment obviously, from these big companies in british infrastructure. or that's all the label there isn't, i mean there's lots of us money coming in the real estate market. i mean, it comes up to prices. but again, according to deutsche bank, you know,

russian money in the real estate kind of 15 percent of the market. so it's not really going to have the british market, but they don't really invest an industry in britain either. and it's more property is more lifestyle, it's them personally. but i think with the sanctions in britain is making a point symbolic gesture going off. the people closest to put in, and they going to cause them in inconvenience because they won't be able to go to london or make any difference you don't answer, can that? no, it's not. it's symbolic. i'm going off to the banks again, it's the same sort of thing. it's going to be an inconvenience and it's because of the ownership of those banks that are being sanctioned. but like i said before, the sanctions i think are ineffective too, because russia as chris pet prepared itself. so the west has very little leverage over them. so what they can do is punish and annoy him,

but it doesn't really go beyond that. it's not about cleaning all the view of the british government. they obviously think sanctions are a useful tool and i should say jet go all the rotten words, deny all wrong, doing this, right? all this actions, but i mean, one of the banks, problems with the bank has partly been owned by the european bank of reconstruction and development. i don't know with people who don't understand that and they have millions of deposit is obviously in russia. so that means that if they have relatives here, they can send money and things like that. but that's a special case in so much is in 2017. i think it was a crisis in these books. 9 has gotten ring banks and that was one of them. i went down and got taken over by the central bank of russia and it's been restructured. and that one's being read talks to now stay and, and it's been reach us to specifically from the defense industry. so it's the military. thank. now it does all the arms deals and facilitates all those deals and, and russia exports. $15000000000.00 worth of arms here. so it's a big business,

i would be to stop escrow accounts in london for alms dealing internationally. i mean, russia, russia, so around the world is a huge contracts with india, with china, with brazil, with london. so what's the point of this thing? if you go off to the buying community part of the international financial system and if you block business in london, that's a serious inconvenience. i mean it's the same with the state. if they put sanctions on the bank, then you can also sanction anybody who does business with it. and so if a u. s. sanction on a russian bang, that's effectively a global bank on using that bank at school so that it's not stupid. i mean, if they go after it's going to have to find another bank do business. all right, well, of course the big story is the delay announced by all of sholtes with a it's

a delay. but it's another review, isn't it? it's not actually a cancellation. well, i understand just having no stream to gas pipeline is complete, it has been since september for the gas. it could be turned on literally tomorrow. however, it was waking, waiting for the german regulated to give it approval, has to check to make sure it's not going to be an interest. i'm what the german government has done is removed one of the documents that gives us permission to function. and because of that document is now missing, there's an incomplete package, which means the regulator cannot approve, it becomes impossible. so effectively they've killed it for the meantime. i mean that there's the option of retaining this document and then it will be back on. so you can see it maybe is as a bargaining chip or just to be clear. so while that isn't laid north stream to is delayed, the gas supplying germany from russia goes through pipeline existing biplane

through ukraine, north stream one. in fact, no, no, this is just a pipeline. so there's a ukrainian or the central route that runs from western siberia through cranes here . and then as the north stream rose the northern route collection of pipelines and they were in the north stream, one runs on to the boats in no string to goes alongside and back that they are unaffected. i mean, no stream one is up and running and full capacity and has been and nobody is complaining about. so what difference does it make to russia if the gas is still being piped through ukraine and through these baltic republics, that are old gung ho with getting into a lot of detail, the no stream pipelines that connected to the new fields in the fields and the ukrainian pipe is connected to the m p t. fields which are in western siberia. now those fields are almost to places and they are very old and guess from one to triple investment into the mpg just keep production flat, whereas yell is full,

brand new fields full of gas. so russia wants to, from a business perspective, change to mal, which is good, 100 years with gas. whereas in western side there is to run out of gas. and more times go, i don't know, 5 years. i mean, like i say that the investment going into those fields to keep producing is going up and up and up. so it becomes less and less profitable. whereas the mount fields with brand new pipelines are extremely profitable. so just from a business perspective, russia wants to switch to these new fields. and the problem is that you can, the mount fields are not connected to the new cranium, but you can sell and send this arctic guys through the cranium. but we'd have to build a whole bunch of interconnects which don't exist. or these 2 are a small, it's the in the short term in the short term, the guess is just flowing through grain from russia. yeah. know most of it is going through, well,

not stream. and there's another northern pipeline. so there's about 40000000 cubic meters going through ukraine, and then there's another 100 that's going through these are the pipelines to the know they've got ukraine on a minimum now. and the training system could carry 150. so it's being used at the absolute minimum by russia, as part of a political process of life trying to get everyone this way. everyone's 10 no string to on, which was totally could take up all of the volumes that are going through ukraine at the moment. could be if you had no stream to working, then there would be no gas going through kind of. so obviously the training academy already suffering. can you believe they, they would say, and the russian economy being helped by the spiking oil prices. and what are you saying about our journalists in this country, and what are you saying about the role of this information oversee ukraine is closed down 5 channels to start with. and a believe there was to close this channel down all around the world. what is the

role of information and how should we and people watching this program understand media coverage of this conflict with how the senior be crying. rush story in particular is that it's become very emotional. you know, we've had like 20 years or less 15 years of demonizing goods and which itself is become a great story that you know, this is believe i even put in sales papers which is probably true to an extent. but the objectivity to some extent has gone out the window because various races have developed. and those were narratives get fed and then again, a lot, you know, then the number of foreign correspondents in moscow is very small. and a lot of people are writing about russia from the outside, but then what they do, what they know, their entire background is based on the rates that they've had. you know, what we do is we have, we, you know, we lived that we worked there trying to balance story and as lots of good things

that happened in has doubled the size of the economy. incomes have gone from $10.00 a month, 20 to $2.00 same level is learned at the you. it's the most prosperous of all of the former soviet union countries that didn't join the years. so there's been successes. but at the same time, you know, he is who he is for mc h u b officer up in the soviet union. and so he's this figure sort of caught between these 2 wells at the same time on the other sides because of the decaying relationships that he's being progressively demonized. so we have this expression puts in russia in so much is the implication there is there a country belongs to him and he runs it like zach and z, z aggressive and k g, b and shoot journalists and crushes the opposition. and some of that stuff does happen is not entirely reform country, because that's the no rates, if you guys told, and the other stuff,

the success is the transformation gets ignored. some of the business press to it. but when you look at the market markets overweight in russia has been so recently the market lamps, russia. so the back story is contained within banking. so that, that's all seen as propaganda. as you know, that's it for one of your favorite shows of this season. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch viral on social media if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch all going on the ground episode, odyssey r t dot com see very soon ah,

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on your bills. and those are hard to deal with . washington scrambles for damage control after president biden suggests the u. s. is speaking to toppled vladimir putin, the us leader later, backtracks and says he was just venting his own personal frustration expression more outreach. and i feel, and i make no apologies for personal life by 1st verified video leaked on the internet for ports to show ukrainian troops torturing and killing captured russian soldiers shooting them and leaving them to bleed on the floor. russian forces claim control over most of them are you bold following intense fighting as local residents hiding in their basement?