politics much harder to formulate with russia and the west. now trading accusations of irrationality and even madness over their senses in ukraine is there still any common ground to be reached? to discuss that, i'm now joined by henry that and dean of the school of government and politics at the most of the state institute of international relations is have some of that. and it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you. for your invitation, now the launch of the russian military operation in ukraine came as a surprise not only do many in the way, but i also think too many in russia, including myself. it is true that ukraine over the last couple of years, was increasingly being militarized. it is true that it presented an object of securing a challenge for russia, but do you personally believe that these issue, this problem will be addressed in such a way? i mean, sooner or later, it should have been done in this way. because russia doing not only this is

that even before russia has always signalized threats and the problems which russia faces in its relations with the western countries, with nato, with each other, nato member said along because threats to the russian security are never, never taken into account the world i guess the main target and the main goal of. ready benito doing day last years was to pose a try to. so russia proposed several times a resolution to this problem in a way russia, russia suited. unfortunately, we have heard that it's not going to happen and we've heard only the language. so i think it was predictable. so no later, going to happen like this. i asked

a question of many of my guests and i want to run by you as well. do you think the boldness brains in this with which your crane was militarized recently, as well as with which ukraine openly pursued and to russian policy and policies and politics? do you think it was in fact, based on the calculation that no matter what russia may rumble as much as that one, but it would never average use military force against your brain for a whole host of strategic cultural, emotional, psychological, as well as kinship. read them. now i guess it was keeping in mind that your brain is going to be the one to start regression. another one again, done, but people live in don't the region and maybe a against as well. so the target was that we should try ukraine in

the main i'd say target number one would be to bring russia into this conflict and make this complex as long as possible. and you can see this by looking at the types of the weapons which are provided to your brain there. they are there and to do 2 words. ukrainians is something soft, which reminds me of the way they worked with to tell him and any other. they just supply them with weapons which are necessary for parts of the war for long and very, very demolition for any country and it's economy and it's population of war. and they have no other target, their territory, which should be kind of in threat to russia. security, one of your colleagues, somebody saw them before they started this,

that the key problem of russia foreign policy. what ask you to did the low village your craft. in other words, the russia was joining its red lines, was signaling you later policies. but essentially, you know, decision makers in the west didn't believe that russia would do anything, cannot say in response to that, do you agree with that? so who was most coast or the west that the kremlin repeated or need not take countries used to the fact that the country we had lost in the cold war and was made to, to russia for this 2030 years. however, the world has changed in 30 years and the russian government so many times that there are some territories which present strategic importance for

russian federation. and it's going to be possible to work with those countries to make them become hard. so traditional union, so are we going to color economic or military without taking into account the position of russian federation? maybe up to this moment. they are going to threat we're going to, i'm going to stress the importance of some points but who are not in the most decisive way. however, i think now no one has a very serious when it comes to read last for security. and then this perception has changed. it's exact opposite because when you look at how a russia is intentionally being turned into

a prior to gene is presented as a murder psychopath. the tendency to apply psychological framework for what is essentially a foreign policy analysis. do you think that the manipulation or is the west indeed, who even around or, you know, structural precursors to this crisis? if we talk about lead, don't countries, they are fully aware of all the speech we have for the moment. but the things you have mentioned, yes, they are mainly used for the inner politics and for the kind of pressure or in the civil society, the countries which are now targeting russian economy and which are also developing some aggression, aggressive measures against russian federation. because you,

you should be able to explain your population, why they are going to suffer in the coming winter. why everything is going to be, why, sorry, triple more expensive than it used to be several months ago. you should make them believe that this is the price they pay for fighting something terrible and something very dangerous for themselves as well. so that's why they are, yes, they are trying to present russia in this way because what the united states do in this moment is they can destroy the perspectives and the future on european the car . because for, for the united states, they relations with russia are much less important than for europe in union because the differences almost 10 times our trade balance with the united states is around $30000000000.00 with new york. it's more than

200000000000. so a huge difference here, and that's why it's very difficult to explain to any german or kelly or any french or i don't know. citizen, no, union, why are you. ready going to live in, in a terrible way and coming. why are you a much more for regular products which you're used to in case you tell them to approve? because the truth, 8 years ago, a tries to and it was a special operation in this case, is it possible to explain all these things to your citizens? but if your present russia as a terrible country president, a terrible things, et cetera, is much. let me ask you about the reality

check that will also have to happen on the russian side. given the sheer scale of the challenges that russia took about it. um, and i don't only mean the military operation and the western sanctions it from other but also i think our country bears national responsibility for rebuilding the infrastructure. and you know, creating at least a modicum of governance in the ukrainian territory is now under russia's control. do you find all that burden that russia took? wanted south realistic? do you think if can bear it and how long do you think they'll take and how much it will take away from rochester own development? okay, well i think to answer this question, i really have to answer another one. well, don't so many times in different interviews, that special operation might be in ukraine. however,

the war is against the way in general and against the order which we have for this moment. then when the special operation. and we're going to change that over the future of ukraine. but also the way the international relations are composed and the way the international financial system is composed and the way actually in the countries russia, this 30 years. this is important because i'm fully, i'm absolutely sure that russia is capable. and it's not only the capable but then russia is going to bring can the special operation to a successful. and afterwards, i'm sure that russia is going to get all the points for each for strategic importance, for russian federation before this special operation. and all the requirements and the mass which russia is presented to the ukraine in government. they are all going

to be met. but then i'm sure that afterwards the world has to change. and we're going to live in a completely different world because just to just to make sure that that's going to happen. just imagine that we're doing this one month, the western countries, and the so called global world, it cetera. they have they, they take all the resources they've had, they've taken all the instruments and mechanisms they have and they just to, to, to destroy russian economy. they are doing everything to destabilize russian political system. then everything, all the steps they are taken now are to make the russians to protest and oppose its own government, which is not happening. not going to happen for sure,

because the russian government is much more legitimate. b, american government or, and you can go, i have to do something new here because we need to take a very short break. but we will be back in just a few moments to talk about how the world is going to change a we're in a,

it isn't with us, but i'm on the like when you know, maybe a day with a lot of the life me with

a fellow the all new bills when you do we want a game that will be school of government and politics at the moscow state institute of international relations there saturday before they break, we were talking about the shifting world, the weather and no, that's why it is a much bigger issue than just ukraine, you ones that historically, russia has already twice helped to shade the architectural global security at 1st after the congress. and then after the delta conference i you saying that we are now witnessing the time. it's surely going to happen like this. and i have no doubt,

because as soon as the special operation ends in russia gets all the all the points which are presented, the demands towards the ukranian government is very can be of this that the resources of the united states, which is considered to be the main dictator and i can see how it like a dictatorship that's, that is because they're different from other forms of government is that dictatorship doesn't have any law which is going to limit its power. and we have seen that 30 years have invaded the countries which they consider, they could, they never paid attention to any international law obligations. so in the 30 years,

they haven't behaved themselves. and i mean, the traditional relation says, as a dictator, now, when, when it, when it becomes obvious that all the resources they had are not enough to try to, ah, oppose russia. it's very justified demand. the world will have to change and many countries are now looking at this process. and it should be when we succeed in this special operation. and it's going to be much easier for us to talk with friends and with its enemies with opponents and with allied is going to be much easier. so many countries around the world look and see what is this world which existed for this is where the united states for

the only center for taking what is this world politics really capable of what it is capable of? and you don't already view this all the resources against russia, and when they are going to fail in their attempts to limit our influence, the territories which she presents for us for russia. then those countries are also going to have their own, the way they're going to behave in the coming. so i said before that, unlike the united states, russia is not speaking global leadership or global hegemony. not only because it's clearly a lack of resources to maintain it, but also because essentially philosophically amounting polar system based on a balance of interest. since multiple batter. why that russia has never presented any sort of idea ology or any sort of physical teaching. which

idea would be to incorporate all the nations and all the people of the world into one system or one with the government for 70 years? russia was the communist country, but the economy said there was nothing but russia in europe doing the 1000 use processes through we see that russia was never the country which intended to create the universe. so teaching, which would be it true for all of the nation, sir, on russia territory, or any sort of universal model of governors political system, political regina center. you can see that those nations which war part of the russian empire, they always kept their own national identity. russia was very thoughtful and very

attentive towards their religion, their religious culture and heritage in general. this is the father of physician of russia. whereas when we look at our content plots, wherever they come, they try to bill their left, his liberal political philosophy, which they try to bring into political systems must. and the universe schools all over the world wherever they come. and the result of that is best that those system, they just, they don't match. well, we have states which are which become fail case that is the worst result possible. speaking are risk back that i agree with you. russia historically has demonstrated to its neighbors. busy or even people living within

the larger of russia. i will, i want to ask you about how it applies to ukraine in this one in europe. because he said, the russia still have a stake in maintaining ukraine's face. ukraine sovereignty provided of course, the size to military and neutrality. why is that? why would the rush would be interested in this day and age to have your grand as an independent say, russia has never put as in target, making any other part of duration or station or any other state. we've had many cases where parts of the stage which are populated by different groups, they have declared their independence and their willingness to be part of russia. that is, the thing that happened when, if the part of ukraine returned to crimea live, ask,

and it's done. in republics, they don't wish to be part of russia and they wish to be part of the state or, i don't know, maybe they will be there on this. i don't know what's going to happen because russia surely now the country to offer by the territories of 4 states and to say, any territory of the country that never happened before. and russia declared for many times that our new to our creation doesn't have target onto playing. ukraine said ones that the united states actually what the united states actually need desperately need is a model based on the constant and everlasting threat of mutual destruction. so even if the americans don't have a need that once to pick up the fight with them, they will have to either in one or create some semblance of apocalyptic strive. why

would that be beneficial to washington? first of all, the political elite, the united states, always means that in order to to have the political programs and the, and to act the way they usually do the study. they always have someone who was willing to destroy the united states that was not important. that was saying, or wal mart duffy or but what all of them have. so i don't know why they were so dangerous for the american people that the united states had spent billions of dollars to act and to start military campaigns. the term of those stage or 2 to the lives of thousands of their own people and also the elliana. so why so the

citizen, so the country they haven't made it before. so this is the 1st target, the 2nd one. and you can see as soon as there is russia for the united states as very easy to control the european countries. i mean, one year or 2 years ago, we were talking about nato being almost that. now each time joseph visits any european country or makes his speeches, he saying that we're all together. neutral countries are together. we are casala, they mainly have because they try to picture russia. and the last one is to destroy the over the country. so the european continent becomes much easier to control, mainly on guessing that the most aggressive mutual member countries are the baltic states and put those came,

are the ones who are pushing the most in the most aggressive against russia. and in order to make easily or any other european country, which was before this was so it cared much less about those threats. now it's a very easy way to pressure the public opinion and to change the public opinion reset to consolidate them longer. united states ruling even higher on the higher level. you mentioned a couple of western life or is and for a long time, those wars, the populations of those western countries were isolated from the consequences of those war, especially the americans who have the benefits of to oceans. but i think starting, especially in syria, the europeans started to feel the pain 1st in the way, my grandson, that you know, responsibilities that they have to increasingly take for the african security

nowadays, or with russian crisis. as you mentioned, the europeans are going to see in their stores in that pocket said that gas stations, et cetera. do you think they will still be housed in stockholm syndrome mentality and being a medium to the americans? or can it actually have an opposite effect when to push comes to shock people? and when the, when, when the current is palpable enough, that people may actually change our way of thinking and realize that perhaps the world is not. and they have been told it is i think so, no, later the things are going to change. i meant sure that your opinion is going to exist in a way, at least in a way into this now. and i'm not sure that at all in the future. so when we are going to have the next 2 years, maybe we're going to see the 1st result in the european congress. i mean,

the wants to take place in half a year in the countries were alluding political forces or the ruling forces were to lose maybe a month ago. maybe they are going to succeed now because they were going to lose 2 political parties and leaders, which were not pro ration, but they were much more were they were saying that we cannot exist with russia. we should have a dial or central know because of the history and because of the, the hysterical propaganda which to last me being the countries neurons for this, for this, for, for at least the law for those political parties is to be much more difficult. now,

when you look at the perspective of 23 and 4 years, i think that you are going to suffer a lot because of what they do know they're going to agriculture. they're going to have problems with guests, which loyal and as a result, maybe during the elections, citizens are now going to have a direct connection between what happens in the period of sanctions which their governments have imposed towards russia and what they have on their shows in the it in any way they are going to boulder gauge those governments and i'm trying to place i think her, what was going to change a lot for russia as well is that we shouldn't wait for the attitude. the european countries change towards russia, or we shouldn't have hopes that you know,

going to have another president. and maybe there's going to be better this. i'm going to be better. we should do that in mind. and we should understand what our real national interests are. and we should work in a way that our national interests are always followed by the are the states. if not, we have our last and are actually going to be like this. ok, well on this point, mr. saturday, and we have to leave it here. thank you. very much for meeting with you and thank you for watching hope to see again next week with me.

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