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ah, ah. hello and welcome to cross hawk. were all things considered? i'm peter lavelle is peace at hand, russia ukraine, negotiations to end the conflict appear to be a real possibility. compromise seems to be prevailing. will this impact the west offensive against russia? i cross sucking the conflict in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess. why read in washington? he's a journalist with sputnik news in charlottesville. we have david swanson, he's the executive director of world beyond war dot org and in pittsburgh we have

dan kabbalah. he is a professor of law, an author of the plot, to scapegoat russia. originally, cross stock rules and effect. that means he can jump in any time he want. and i always appreciate why it let me go to you. i mean, i, i originally titled this program time to de escalate in light of the a out the truly disastrous trip that biden had to europe last week. and then we had to day, our reports coming out of the negotiations and turkey that the russians in the ukrainian seem to be ham hammering out something here. how it is already been reported that rushes moving some of its forces away from cabin other large cities. that say in play, this is what the wire services are saying. this is what i checked the, the task new service. this is what they're saying. it seems to be having some traction here. it's, i find very interesting why it is that, you know, what, we have all of this bombastic rhetoric coming out of nato out of washington out of law london. and then we have this going on in turkey. um,

is everybody on the same page here that it doesn't seem like it to me, wyatt, and washington? go ahead. you don't think you're exactly right. this is a case where people are simply not on the same page. the lensky regime obviously has a serious amount of willingness to negotiate or something that we just don't really see much of in washington, within nato. within those more hard line, i mean, militias that are in the east of the country, we see less of a willingness to negotiate. but you know, zalesky himself, i think, is proposing some very, very reasonable sorta missions here. when we talk about who actually is control this, i think you know, that is very important. question we know ryan ram ask jen saki more or less point blank. whether or not the united states would sort of even support these negotiations. obviously jen site isn't going to say no, but she didn't really outline of

a constructive role or the united states in this division process. obviously it's very early on, very hard to tell, but i would vote for the sake of ukrainians. the sake of russians are there. this is more in the hands of the ones david way and on that. it's really early that. i mean we're, as we do is speaking right now, this is information that i just conveyed is hours old here. but there seems to be a glimmer of hope to finally have this conflict to come to an end. and it seems to be the security of the ukrainians, and the russians are being met. i mean, it's really unfortunate that nobody listen to about security guarantees back in december, but here we are, david. yeah, well here we are because of both sides escalated and russia invaded, and russia bombed and killed and murdered. and you know, countless hosts on russian

t. v and radio outlets that pretended to me for years and years that they opposed war and they opposed killing and they opposed blowing up men, women and children. didn't mean it. they meant only they, they opposed you at just like all the people in the us who suddenly opposed russian war making. but sheer, when it's u. s. war making. this is that what so disgusting about? this is how many people have cheered for one side or the other in this war. and there's going to be tough negotiations ahead. ukraine is probably going to have to give up territories. and russia is going to have to be held accountable and pay reparations. and not be held accountable by hypocrites in washington, but be held accountable by international bodies that largely don't exist and need to be built up despite the opposition of these horrible war mongering governments in both russia and washington. well, david, i gave,

if you want to call out warmongers, can you call out give to let me go to dan because there was an 8 year war against the don bass, where 14000 people were murdered, bombed shelves and a form of ethnic cleansing. so that's a war the west doesn't want to talk about. okay. and it is the origins of this conflict right now. dan and pittsburgh please way in. yeah, well, that is true. the war didn't begin a month ago. it began 8 years ago. and as you say, 14000 people have died 80 percent, the figure i saw is 80 percent, are indeed ukrainians living in the dog bass region. i'm. and again, without justifying what russia did, i mean, i think, you know, what i understand is that russia saw that kia was mounting troops, 60000 troops on the border of don bass, possibly poise to engage in a major invasion of that area to take it back from the break away republics,

and in fact, zalinski had threatened to do that over the summer. i mean, he was very overt that that's what he was going to do. right. and russia decided to act up. we'll never know whether that invasion by key of what happened, but we do know that there were constant attacks being made against a dog bass. and that there were troops including ultra right wing elements located in the dom bass that were a torturing and killing ethnic russians. in that area, and again, as you say, the western press has been utterly absent in covering this and it really doesn't give therefore a true picture of this as well. yeah, i mean, we can, we can, should decided to go ahead david, jump in, go ahead. russia decided to act as if your choices are war or nothing. i mean,

imagine if i went into a domestic court and said, yes, your honor, i burned all those children. but i know one guy who's for a 100 times more than you know, and honest judge would say great, we're going to convince you. and we'd like to know about that. other guy there isn't an honest judge on the internet. i would make the did i beg to disagree with you on that day, but let me go to wyatt here. the russians made it very clear we have. we have recent history. december 17th to draft treaties were sent one to nato, one to washington, saying we cannot tolerate the status quo. now, here are our demands. will you negotiate in good faith? they did not negotiate a get everybody there. get everyone in here like david respond. why it 1st will we have something else called the minute we had meetings, we didn't jump directly from, you know, from these attacks straight into war, straight into, you know, you train versus russian military. we had 8 years of attempts to reconcile these

forces to come to a peaceful agreement. and we had 8 years or several years of the any government failing at every corner and every turn to upload its end of immense humans failing to abide by these. these documents, so at what point, i guess my question be at what point, how many people is enough? how many russians even have to die before they are allowed to fight david, you want to weigh in, go ahead. i do. yes. russia is not a model citizen in the world has not joined or supported international criminal court or the international conceded states. i did raise and has united boys not for god's sake. of course not hang on. one has not, has not, has not supported the rule of law was in a position of mocking this program. and these, this network mock in the predictions of invasion world opinion was moving towards

russia's side. russia was helping refugees from the ukrainian violence. russia could have appealed to the world for people to come and non violently support the ukrainians in the don best. i would have come all those people being arrested. busy holding up a piece of paper in moscow would have come. you would have had the world on russia side instead. this pretense that bombing and mass murder was the okay. good day i get your point, but let me go to dan here. you know, we've heard, ever since the end of the cold war, nato is a defensive alliance. then they dismantle the former yugoslavia, nato, as a defensive alliance destroys libya. do you think russia considering what happened in june? 1941 is going to believe the words of alliance, the des says, where a defensive alliance go ahead, dave. there, i'm sorry, dan dan. go ahead. well, of course started, and of course they can't believe nato. of course, the russia was promised. remember that gorbachev was told by james baker, secretary of state james baker, that if he allowed germany to reunite that nato would not lose an inch east of

germany. of course, no sooner was that said that the u. s. began to nato began to encroach all the way up to the borders of russia, which you get in the u. s. would never have tolerated right if, if the, if there was a warsaw type packed up in, they had troops in mexico. the u. s. never would have tolerated that fact. the last time they tried something like that in cuba. 19 to we almost went to war over it. so now of course the u. s. is a completely unreliable negotiator on any of these 6 by the way, i think that's why zalinski is trying to find a way out and i agree that the u. s. was not truthful with it, they thought they would, the u. s. for back him up on this and of course they've done nothing. um, so yes, i think the international system has broken down. the u. s. in particular,

has intentionally destroyed it. bit by bit. the attack on serbia was a big part of doing that. and so what is there to appeal to? and i think we have to start asking what is there to appeal to internationally for these sorts of things. and we need to start creating something that's real to do that if, if we, if we really handle dan, i don't, i don't want to sound like a broken record, but this was offered in december of last year to reassess the security architecture of europe. and it came on deaf ears. why study courses? i before we go to the break, why i had the right way. i wasn't for this was happening the month before or the month after we got this article in yahoo that showed you normally drop your the united states as training. and insurgency were ca official to kill russians. right? so we have this program and that's something that the guy has been doing since the

end of world war 2, by the way. so that is sort of conditions that you had in ukraine. that is what russian people are up against and that is backed up. all right, gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the conflict in ukraine state already. ah ah ah ah

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ah, welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on peter labelle to remind you we're discussing the conflict in ukraine. ah. okay, let's go back to david in charlottesville. are there any lessons to learn from this because this is a war that never should have happened in the 1st place that were so many opportunities to averted? now it is happen, as we see right now there looks like to be some kind of possibility to end hostilities. but where do we go from here? because the isolation of russia in every sense of the, of the word is going to continue. this is a part of a mania that is in a now in western europe, and certainly in the united states. the conflict may end in ukraine, but the tensions won't go ahead. david. well, we can list endless thousands of mistakes and horribly reckless sanctions by russia, by the united states, by nato, by ukraine and, and please,

and displeased 4 different audiences in the process. virtually nothing was done, right? that's how you get into a war in how the norm is peace. if i agree, i agree with you. i agree with you on that. i agree, go ahead. glad to hear it and we can stop, you know, excusing what russian does. because the united states does worse. i mean, this is like the mafia does it. so it's okay mom, you know what it is. okay. that if something is existential, if something is existential, you have to act in. if the international system doesn't work for you, you have to act out of self defense. okay? that is an argument. you may not like it, but it is an argument i interrupted. you please give her, the mafia does it mom. so it's okay is also an argument. it's not a good one. it's not a legal one, and it's not a moral one and blowing people up in ukraine and calling it defensive is no better than blowing people up in yemen and calling it and then good david, why didn't whoa, whoa, why didn't nato want to defend the people of the don bass,

if they're so you know, a, so no, no bull in when wanting peace and wanting defense. okay. why i can't get away from that. not that that conflict was completely ignored. you tell people about as i had never heard about it before, that was intentional. wyatt. lucel's, nato was a criminal cartel. nobody said it was noble. go ahead. why it will. so it's then to me, the natural question. if you have this criminal cartel, it's coming up, it's constantly advancing right on your board. a criminal stop advancing on my board. it stopped with start drawing all these different countries into your sphere of entrance influence away from our soccer ones. now, according to establishment, russia is not even allowed to have and even though we go back to, you know, 2014, you can see even president obama on the atlantic. or the fact is that your brain, which is a non native country, is going to be vulnerable, military domination by russia. no matter what we do. so you have this recognition

from some levels, you know, that didn't want to send weapons to the nazis. and then how did president, for years over his failure to send and weapons, not is it, these are the kind of a, you know, sort of the, the backdrop, again, that we have in the united states. which, you know, you know, if we had a really sort of educated and were populous, you're all like david, i think these kinds of attitudes about, you know, all wars bad, all were supposed unconditionally, no matter what. i think that was a lot more people would be more receptive to that kind of argument. but the fact of the matter is, as you to know that this was an existential crisis. this is how we can saw. this is how russia saw this is how they made it extremely clear for years and years and years that ukraine was the red line. right? that, that this, this failure to buy by the piece process for 8 years. again, not, not overnight, not 8 months, not 8 days, 8 years. that for that killed 14000 people. vast majority russians, you know,

on that side of the d, p r, the l, p r. that is something that you just can't ignore. you can't look the other way. you can say, hey, international community is somebody going to do something about it because they simply didn't. they simply did not, they didn't care. and this is why you have people that do, regardless of how people in the west they do, you, the russian army as liberators, in some sense, in a way that the united states army was never seen in iraq ever, never going to be seen in, you know, places like syria and that, that, that is just, you know, we don't want to talk about you really, you have to understand, what does that mean in order lance, in russia, right. this is a region of, well, that was as a long term take on minus the russian. i said, just saying why, what brought wide brought up about what obama said to the atlantic magazine. i said that and i got cancelled in every sense of the word on social media because i said exactly what brock obama said. okay, but i'm cancelled for it. and all of my work on the internet has been completely

erased. okay. because i had an opinion about the 44th president of united states. i mean, it's really amazing times we live in now. you know, dan, where do we go from here? because, you know, when i look at western media, it's all ukraine. you know, they put the ukraine lapel, a flag on their lapel, but you know, throwing more and more arms into a conflict that they cannot win. i mean, is that empathy for ukrainians? i mean, i can't figure that out. go ahead dan. no, of course, i mean again if from an american point of view and i'm an american and i therefore have some say it my government not much, but we have an a sensible democracy. i need to hold my old own government accountable for their actions. and so what is out, what is my path board? what do i think needs to be done? i think we need you encouraged the u. s. to ratchet down. it's anti rush rhetoric, which is not just an type, but literally anti russian. it is races, right? my head,

but isn't that treason to say that what you're saying is treasonous according to standards, right now in the media? i mean, it's really our northern europe. patriotism is questioned. yeah. i know, and i know legally it's not treasonous. of course, we're not even at war with russia, so it's literally not treasonous, but i understand it's treated as such. but look, i think we need to reset are relations that should happen a long time ago. we need to sit down, find mutual security and, and but, and again, we got a get the u. s. to stop spending over $700000000000.00 a year on war. ah, we need to really change the priorities of this country to focus on the real problems in this country. infrastructure, hunger, lack of health care, and stop trying to dominate the world. it is that will to power which has led to this horrible crisis. and again, as an american,

that's what i need to try to fix. okay, but david bad is not going to happen, is matter fact, i think just to reverse. i think that, you know, the, obviously a, we all want the conflict and ukraine to end as soon as possible. um, but i, the ramifications politically, economically, i would say will last generation russia in the west have gone their separate ways. they're not going to meet each other again for a very long time. your thoughts, david? well, we can work to make that not be the case. and of course, if this ends up with nuclear weapons used, there won't be any more generations. i think principally what we need is the government of ukraine to resist the right wing tendencies within its own country, to resist nato, to resist the united states, as well as to resist russia and to be neutral into stay neutral. and we need the rest of the world, the nation's outside of the united states and russia to take charge of world affairs, to democratize the united nations to say no, to these imperial, bloodthirsty war mongering governments. i and start stepping out of,

of the shadow of the united states or russia to be full citizens of the globe. because we, as you say, we can't be putting our faith in the governments that are leading the, the earth right off a cliff. you know, why it is the, the, the, the relationship that russia has with the western world is basically been cut. okay . and it's get, and it's a continues that way that it has a momentum already to it. and even though europeans can lift sanctions, americans never lift sanctions. ok. so i think you know that that's a sign of the times. russian assets are illegally stolen by governments without any due process. this is a, the way the, the west freedom of speech, property rights. it's all gone, it's all gone now. okay. and why would anyone trust the west doing that? okay, to a g 20 country. go ahead. what? well, absolutely. and this is something we've been seeing for years with denise layla

with the ron open piracy on the open sea, dealing shipments of oil. this is kind of these kind of tactics or nothing new. it's just now we're seeing them try it out on, you know, competitor here power. it's not something that i think people who have an interest in it should want to see obviously funny people in the united states in the west right now. not really have it on their mind. they have this kind of expensive range for blood, you know, sort of in this war fever right now, but was the mainstream is simply won't stop getting the drums of war. but obviously this is going to lead to, like you said, you know, a couple and i think we're already sort of there we see segments of europe that are simply unable to eat. because to do so would leave them freezing in the code. but we have already seen that, you know, there is no willingness within the west now even to allow russians to participate

in the international financial system. so they are having to do other transactions in other currencies, other than dollar other than euro. this is great for people who want to see the rise of something opposed to the petro dollar. want to see an alternative sort of multiple world. but if you are a sort of war, ha, if you are a, an american exceptional as the europe in exceptional list, i would think that this would, here is basically the biggest self inflicted wounds. the west is given. it amazingly self inflicted. let me go back to david here the, the gas driven president of the united states. so people say it was a gap. i think it's, i think biden actually says what he really thinks that he wants to regime change in russia. and of course, is people have to clean up after him, but he double down on again, triple down. and this is what we see on this side of the pond. is that, oh, you did that in iraq. ok, you did that in libya. you want to do it in north korea, you want to do it in russia. there's obvious reasons why people react negatively to

that david. absolutely right and defend it on the u. s. a. media outlets, and i can't get on u. s. media outlets. so there's no need for them to arrest me the way i would be arrested tomorrow. if i came to russia for what i'm able. no, you wouldn't not. is it completely regret generation david? that is. i know there are people that work at ortiz, that are angry about this, and they're not fired. ok, they have opinions, do it. and my goodness of only people in the west have agency. now people here also do you know, most or on russia tv you get interrogated for 14 hours and, and prosecuted for a crime. i don't know what that what, what crime might have been committed. ok, anyway. i, i'm sorry i want to give dan, let me give you the last of a few seconds. go ahead. i'm just going to say, look, well, i think for those interested in peace and of the rule law again,

i think we have to get our own house in order. we need to, to mobilize a p, a real peace movement. the united states call upon the u. s. to deescalate, with russia. i think a relationship with russia is still possible. i've been saying that for years i still believe that and i agree, it may be some time before that is possible, but i think we have to work for that. and that's what i'm going to work for yet, bella, there are too many people, not making money off of war and armaments and this ideal is neil liberal ideology that is so in tolerance, i don't see it happening. i'm a pessimist, maybe i'll be proven wrong. it's all the time i want to thank my guests in watch and in charlottesville and in pittsburgh. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our t c. and it's time to remember crosstalk rules i read. ah,

i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order is a conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence and the point obviously is to great trust i rather than fear i would like to take on very job with artificial intelligence. real. somebody with a robot must protect its own existence with with

with both both the models you need to do both got nothing new. please deal with a a guy nobody. a lot of them bought a a with he's here with us. the 1st one you have a good

a when i was shown the wrong one, i just don't hold any you well you have to shape out the same becomes the after kid and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves well the part we choose to look so common ground ah, a.