ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle is piece at hand russia ukraine negotiations to end the conflict appear to be a real possibility. compromise seems to be prevailing. will this impact the west

offensive against russia? ah, cross sucking the conflict in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, wyatt read in washington. he's a journalist with sputnik news in charlottesville. we have david swanson. he is the executive director of world beyond war dot org and in pittsburgh we have dan kabbalah. he is a professor of law and author of the plot to scapegoat russia originally in cross sac rules and the fact that means he can jump in any time he want. and i always appreciate why it let me go to you. i mean, i, i originally titled this program time to de escalate in light of the i out the truly disastrous trip that biden had to europe last week. and then we had today, our reports coming out of the negotiations and turkey. but the russians and the ukranian seem to be ham hammering out something here. oh, it is already reported that rushes moving some of its forces away from camp and

other large cities that see in play. this is what the wire services are saying. this is what i checked the, the task new service. this is what they're saying. it seems to be having some traction here. it's, i find very interesting why it is that, you know, we have all of this bombastic rhetoric coming out of nato out of washington out of la london. and then we have this going on in turkey. um, is everybody on the same page here that it doesn't seem like it to me, wyatt and washington? go ahead. you don't think you're exactly right. this is a case where people are simply not on the same page. the unless the regime. ready obviously has a serious amount of willingness to negotiate your something that we just don't really see much of in washington, within nato. within those more hard line, i mean, militias that are in the east of the country. we see less of a willingness to negotiate. but, you know, zalesky himself, i think, is proposing some very,

very reasonable sorta missions here. when we talk about who actually is control of this, i think, you know, that is very important. question we know, ryan ram, ask jen saki more or less point blank. whether or not the united states would sort of even support these negotiations. obviously jen site isn't going to say no, but she didn't really outline of a constructive role or the united states in this negotiation process. obviously it's very early on, very hard to tell, but i would hope for the sake of ukrainians, the sake of russians. i think this is more in the hands of the ones david way and on that. it's really early that. i mean we're, as we do is speaking right now, this is information that i just conveyed as ours old here. but there seems to be a glimmer of hope to finally have this conflict come to an end and it seems to be the security of the ukrainians, and the russians are being met. i mean, it's really unfortunate that nobody listen to about security guarantees. back in

december, but here we are, david. yeah, well, here we are because both both sides escalated and russia invaded, and russia bombed and killed and murdered. and, you know, countless hosts on russian t. v and radio outlets that pretended to me for years and years that they opposed war and they opposed killing and they opposed blowing up men, women and children. didn't mean it. they meant only they, they opposed you at just like all the people in the us who suddenly oppose russian war making. but sheer when it's us war making. this is that what so disgusting about? this is how many people have cheered for one side or the other in this war. and there's going to be tough negotiations ahead. ukraine is probably going to have to give up territories. and russia is going to have to be held accountable and pay

reparations. and not be held accountable by hypocrites in washington, but be held accountable by international bodies that largely don't exist and need to be built up despite the opposition of these horrible war mongering governments in both russia and washington. well, david, i gave, if you want to call out warmongers, can you call out give to let me go to dan because there was an 8 year war against the don bass were 14000 people were murdered bombed shelves and a form of ethnic cleansing. so that's a war the west doesn't want to talk about. okay. and it is the origins of this conflict right now. dan and pittsburgh please way in. yeah, well, that is true. the war didn't begin a month ago. it began 8 years ago. and as you say, 14000 people have died 80 percent, the figure i saw is 80 percent, are indeed ukrainians living in the da bass region um and

again, without justifying what russia did. i mean, i think, you know, what i understand is that russia saw that kia was mounting troops, 60000 troops on the border of don bass, possibly poise to engage in a major invasion of that area to take it back from the break away republics. and in fact, zalinski had threatened to do that over the summer. i mean, he was very overt that that's what he was going to do. right. and a russia decided to act um, we'll never know whether that invasion by key of what happened. but we do know that there were constant attacks being made against a dog bass. and that there were troops including ultra right wing elements located in the dom bass that were a torturing and killing ethnic russians in that area. and again, as you say,

the western press has been utterly absent in covering this and it really doesn't give therefore a true picture of this as well. yeah, i mean, we can, we can, should decided to go ahead david, jump in, go ahead. russia decided to act as the if your choices are. busy war or nothing, i mean, imagine if i went into a domestic court and said, yes, your honor, i burned all those children, but i know a guy who's burned a 100 times more than, you know, and honest judge would say great, we're going to convince you. and we'd like to know about that. other guy there isn't an honest judge on the internet. i would i make, did i beg to disagree with you on that day? but let me go to wyatt here. the russians made it very clear we have, we have recent history. december 17th to draft treaties were sent one to nato, one to washington, saying we cannot tolerate the status quo. now, here are our demands. will you negotiate in good faith? they did not negotiate a get everybody there,

get everyone in here like david respond. wyatt 1st. will we have something else called the main screen? we have these, we didn't jump directly from, you know, from these attacks straight into war, straight into, you know, you train versus russian military. we had 8 years of attempts to reconcile these forces to come to a peaceful agreement. and we had 8 years or several years of the any government failing at every corner and every turn to upload its end of immense humans failing to abide by these, these documents. so at what point, i guess my question be at what point, how many people is enough? how many russians even have to die before they are allowed to fight david, do you want to weigh in? go ahead. i do. yes. russia is not a model citizen in the world has not joined or supported international criminal

court or the international cause. he nodded they deny degrees and has united boys not for god's sake. of course not hang on has not, has not, has not supported the rule of law was in a position of mocking this program. and these, this network mock in the predictions of invasion world opinion was moving towards russia's side. russia was helping refugees from the ukrainian violence to russia could have appealed to the world for people to come and non violently support the ukrainians in the don bass. i would have come all those people being arrested for holding up a piece of paper in moscow. would have come, you would have had the world on russia side instead. this pretense that bombing and mass murder was the okay, good day i get your point, but let me go to dan here. you know, we've heard, ever since the end of the cold war, nato is a defensive alliance. then they dismantle the former yugoslavia. nato is a defensive alliance, destroys libya. do you think russia considering what happened in june?

1941 is going to believe the words of alliance, the des says, where a defensive alliance go ahead, dave. there, i'm sorry, dan dan, go ahead in. well, of course started, and of course they can't believe nato. of course, the russia was promised. remember that gorbachev was told by james baker, secretary of state james baker, that if he allowed germany to reunite that nato would not lose an inch east of germany. of course, no sooner was that said that the u. s. began to nato began to encroach all the way up to the borders of russia, which again the us would never have tolerated right. if, if the, if there was a war saw type packed up in, they had troops in mexico, the u. s. never would have tolerated that fact. the last time they tried some like that in cuba 19 to we almost went to war over it. so now of course the u. s. is a completely unreliable negotiator on any of these 6. by the way,

i think that's why zalinski is trying to find a way out and i agree found the u. s. was not truthful with it. they thought they would. the u. s. for it back him up on this and of course they've done nothing. um, so yes, i think the international system has broken down. the u. s. in particular has intentionally destroyed it. bit by bit. the attack on serbia was a big part of doing that. and so what is there to appeal to? and i think we have to start asking what is there to appeal to internationally for these sorts of things. and we need to start creating something that's real to do that if, if we, if we really handle dan, i don't, i don't want to sound like a broken record, but this was offered in december of last year to reassess the security architecture of europe. and it came on deaf ears. why the 1st guy before we go to the break,

why a guy had the right way? i wasn't for this was happening on the month before or the month after we got this article in yahoo that showed you normally drop your the united states as training. and insurgency were ca official to kill russians. right? so we have this program and that's something that the guy has been doing some of the n word. ready to by the way, so that is sort of conditions that you had in ukraine. that is what russian people are up against and that is backed up. all right, gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the conflict in ukraine state. ah, ah, a

oh, well, it shows the wrong one. i just don't know any world that is yet to shape out. disdain becomes the answer to an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. ah, welcome back. across stock were all things are considered on peter level tremonti. we're discussing the conflict in ukraine. ah.

okay, let's go back to david in charlottesville. are there any lessons to learn from this because this is a war that never should have happened in the 1st place that were so many opportunities to avert it. now, it has happened as we speak right now. there looks like to be some kind of possibility to end hostilities. but where do we go from here? because the isolation of russia in every sense of the, of the word is going to continue. this is a part of a mania that is in a now in western europe, and certainly in the united states. the conflict may end in ukraine, but the tensions won't go ahead. david. well, we can list endless thousands of mistakes and horribly reckless sanctions by russia, by the united states, by nato, by ukraine and, and please, and displeased 4 different audiences in the process. virtually nothing was done, right? that's how you get into a war in how the norm is peace. if i agree, i agree with you. i agree with you on that. i agree, go ahead. glad to hear it and we can stop, you know,

excusing what russia does because the united states does work. so i mean, this is like the mafia does it. so it's okay mom, you know, what is it okay if it, if something is existential, if something is existential, you have to act in the international system, doesn't work for you. you have to act out of self defense, okay? that is an argument. you may not like it, but it is an argument i interrupted. you please give her, the mafia does it mom. so it's okay is also an argument. it's not a good one. it's not a legal one, and it's not a moral one and blowing people up in ukraine and calling it defensive is no better than blowing people up in yemen and calling it then good david, why didn't moto, why didn't nato want to defend the people of the don bass, if they are so, you know, a so noble in way wanting peace in wanting defense. ok. why? and i can't get away from that. then that conflict was completely ignored. you tell people about it. i had never heard about it before. that was intentional. wyatt. a

was a criminal cartel. nobody said it was noble. good, why? well, so then to me, the natural question. if you have this criminal cartel, it's coming up. it's constantly advancing right on your board. if you say stop the stop, the criminal stop advancing on my border, stop with start drawing all these different countries into your sphere of entrance influence away from our that one's now or establishment russian or isn't even allowed to have influence. even though we go back to, you know, 2014, you can see even president obama on be going the atlantic. the fact is that your brain, which is a non native country, is going to be vulnerable, military domination by russia. no matter what we do. so you have this recognition from some levels, you know, that didn't want to send weapons to these not season. and then how did president, for years over his failure to send enough weapons. and these are the kind of a, you know, sort of, the, the, the backdrop, again, that we have in the united states. you know, you know, if we had

a really sort of educated and were populous, you're all like david, i think like these kinds of attitudes about, you know, all wars bad, all were supposed unconditionally, no matter what. i think that was a lot more people would be more receptive to that kind of argument. but the fact of the matter is, as you to know that this was an existential crisis. this is how we can saw. this is how russia saw this is how they made it extremely clear for years and years and years that ukraine was the red line, right? that, that this, this failure to buy by the piece process or 8 years. again, not, not overnight, not 8 months, not 8 days, 8 years before that killed 14000 people back. enjoy the rest in on that side of the dpr, the lp are that is something that you just can't ignore and can't look the other way. can't say, hey, international community is somebody going to do something about it because they simply didn't. they simply did not. they didn't care. and this is why you have

people that do regardless of our people in the west, yet they do you the russian army as liberators. in some sense, in a way that the united states army was never seen in iraq. never, never going to be seen in, you know, places like syria, that, that is just, you know, we don't want to talk about, you read it, understand. what does that mean? an order lance and russia, right, this is a regional world that was as a long term take on the russian. i said, just saying why, what would be why it brought up about what obama said to the atlantic magazine. i said that and i got cancelled in every sense of the word on social media because i said exactly what brock obama said ok, but i'm cancelled for it. and all of my work on the internet has been completely erased. okay, because i had an opinion about the 44th president of the united states. i mean, it's really amazing times we live in now. you know, dan, where do we go from here? because, you know, when i look at western media, it's all ukraine. you know,

they put the ukraine lapel, a flag on their lapel, but you know, throwing more and more arms into a conflict that they cannot win. i mean, is that empathy for ukrainians? i mean, i can't figure that out. go ahead dan. now of course, i mean i get it from an american point of view and i'm an american and i therefore have some say in my government, not much, but we have an a sensible democracy. i need to hold my old own government accountable for their actions. and so what is out, what is my passport? what do i think needs to be done? i think we need to encourage the u. s. to ratchet down. it's anti russian rhetoric, which is not just anti but literally anti russian. it is racist, right. my head, but that treason to say what you're saying is treasonous according to standards, right now in the media. i mean, it's really our northern europe patriot. his question. yeah, i know, and i know legally it's not treasonous. of course, we're not even at war with russia, so it's literally not treasonous,

but i understand it's treated as such. but look, i think we need to reset are relations that should happen a long time ago. we need to sit down, find mutual security and, and again, we gotta get the u. s. to stop spending over $700000000000.00 a year on war. um, we need to really change the priorities of this country to focus on the real problems in this country. infrastructure, hunger, lack of health care, and stop trying to dominate the world. it is that will the power which has led to this horrible crisis. and again, as an american, that's what i need to try to fix. okay, but david that is not going to happen is matter fact, i think just the reverse. i think that you know, the, obviously a, we all want the conflict in ukraine to and as soon as possible. i but i, the ramifications politically, economically i would say will last

a generation. russia in the west have gone their separate ways. they're not going to meet each other again for a very long time. your thoughts, david? well, we can work to make that not be the case. i and of course, if this ends up with nuclear weapons used, there won't be any more generations. i think principally what we need is the government of ukraine to resist the right wing tendencies within its own country, to resist nato, to resist the united states, as well as to resist russia and to be neutral and to stay neutral. and we need the rest of the world, the nation's outside of the united states and russia to take charge of. busy world affairs, to democratize the united nations to say no to these imperial, bloodthirsty war mongering governments. and start stepping out of, of the shadow of the united states or russia to be full citizens of the globe. because we, as you say, we can't be putting our faith in the governments that are leading the earth right

off a cliff. you know, why it is the, the, the, the relationship that russia has with the western world is basically been cut. okay? and it's get in, it's a continues that way that it has a momentum already to it. and even though europeans can lift sanctions, americans never lift sanctions. ok. so i think you know that that's a sign of the times. russian assets are illegally stolen by governments without any due process. this is the way, the, the west freedom of speech, property rights at all gone. it's all gone now. okay. and why would anyone trust the west doing that? okay, to a g 20 country. go ahead. white well, absolutely, and this is something we've been seeing for years with denise layla with the ron open piracy on the open sea, dealing shipments of oil. this is kind of these kind of tactics or nothing new. it's just of now we're seeing them try it out on, you know, competitor here power. it's not something that i think people who have an

interest in it should want to see obviously funny people in the united states in the west right now. not really have these on their mind. they have this kind of expensive rang for blood, you know, sort of in this war fever right now, but was the mainstream, it simply won't stop getting the drums of war. but obviously this is going to lead to, like you said, you know, a, i think we're already sort of there we see segments of europe that are simply unable to keep up with because to do so would leave them freezing in the code. but we have already seen that, you know, there is no willingness within the west now even to allow russians to participate in the international financial system. so they are having to do other transactions in other currencies, other than dollar other than the euro. this is great for people who want to see the rise of something opposed to the petro dollar. want to see an alternative sort of

multi polar world. but if you are a sort of war, ha, if you are a, an american exceptional as the europe in exceptional list, i would think that this would, here is basically the biggest self inflicted wounds. the west is given it amazingly self, and i think they'd let me go back to david here in the, the gas driven president of the united states. so people say it was a gap. i think it's, i think biden actually says what he really thinks that he wants regime change in russia. and of course is people have to clean up after him. but he double down on again tripled down. and this is what we see on this side of the pond. is it? oh, you did that in iraq. ok, you did that in libya. you want to do it in north korea. you want to do it in russia. there's obvious reasons why people react negatively to that. david. absolutely right and defended on the u. s. a. media outlets, and i can't get on us media outlets, so there's no need for them to arrest me the way i would be arrested tomorrow. if i

came to russia for what i'm able, no, you wouldn't not. it's a completely wrong glad generation david. that is. i know there are people that work at r t that are angry about this and they're not fired. ok? they have a communion student and my goodness of only people in the west have agency. now people here also do you know most or on russia tv you get interrogated for 14 hours and, and prosecuted for crime. i don't know what that what, what crime might have been committed. ok anyway. i, i'm sorry i want to give dan, let me give you the last few seconds. go ahead. i'm just going to say, look, well, i think for those interested in peace and the of the rule law again, i think we have to get our own house in order. we need to talk to a mobile eyes, a p, a real peace movement. the united states call upon the u. s. to deescalate, with russia. i think

a relationship with russia is still possible. i've been saying that for years i still believe that and i agree, it may be some time before that is possible, but i think we have to work for that. and that's what i'm going to work for. yep, bella, there are too many people not making money off of war and armaments and this ideal is neil liberal ideology that is so in tolerance i don't see it happening. i'm a pessimist, maybe i'll be proven wrong. it's all the time. i want to thank my guests and watch it in charlottesville and in pittsburgh. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our t c. a next time. remember crosstalk rules i really ah ah, needs to come to the russians state will never be tied as i'm phoning most lansky with

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with pakistan is prime minister says the opposition threats to his leadership have been orchestrated by western powers after he refused to allow us based on pakistani territory and declined condemn russia over the ukraine conflict. human rights watch accuses ukraine of using dangerous tactics in violation of international law. as the army allegedly hides among civilians with ukrainian saying that they are being used as human shields. they came to our bomb shelters with badges, say the lease, and demanded the keys to all the apartments and said that if we refused, they would blow up the doors. a prominent u. s. policy adviser, the rand corporation uses a report about how to cripple russia without engaging in battle. ah.