emily and so all in all it is still unknown to us. it is a for me this hour. i will be back in 30 minutes with more news and commentary. this is our chance. ah ah

ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle as russia's military operation, ukraine interest the 2nd month, a popular giddy a parlor game has come into existence. let's call it who's winning and who's losing . sadly, there isn't much time or interest in how to end the conflict. in the meantime, ukraine's fate is being decided, ah,

crossing the conflict in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess. why petro in kingston is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island in delmar. we have scott ritter. he is a former intelligence officer in the united nations weapons inspector and in brussels. we cross a gilbert doctor arrow. he is an independent political analyst and historian or a gentleman cross cycles. in fact, that means you can jump in any time you want, and i always appreciate it's got a nickel. i 1st neglect, i mean it's, it's very interesting watching b who's winning and who's losing a game on table tv, a plethora of articles always in the, in the main broad sheets. but there seems to be preciously little interests and how to end the conflict, but doesn't mean to say that things aren't going on there. there's a plan, there's, there's a, a for a format in bare rows. so when, if sam ball, i'm covering it very weak, watching it very, very carefully here, but it doesn't seem to get a whole lot of play, and all it takes is a secondary se blank and say, well, we're not, we don't think the russians are serious and then there's no discussion any further

. how do you see this here? because there seems to be many elements in the media and in the political classes in the west that actually want to see this war to continue go ahead nikolai. oh, well there are those who are you, it's in america's geo strategic interest to prolong this war to turn it into ah, a russian, her 2nd organic dan or vietnam or something like that. all of these views over look the devastation that's occurring in ukraine itself. and the damage also that is being done to the russian economy and to the economies of europe are in general. and i think that there is indeed, probably some strategy involved. biden keeps alluding to it in confusing and mysterious ways about a new world order. or hopefully the parameters of this new world order will become

clearer to us mere mortals soon. yeah. well, i think that the war all daughter is going to be some very thick lines. ok of separation. scott, how do you see this? i mean, you know, something about the military, i'm not interested in who is winning and who's losing. i'm interested in seeing the conflict resolved with su, deaths as possible on both sides here. but i, it really does disturb me, but the kind of glee that you know, you throw in the graphics and that, you know, there's a counter offensive and all that's the way i love my sources. tell me. and then there's, there's actually very little resistance from the army ukrainian army itself. it's these neo nazi battalions that are fighting to the death. go ahead, scott. i don't know. i mean, is clear to me that there's a significant, a military operation taking place in ukraine that involves heavy fighting on both sides. okay, so what i can say is this, the united states has said that there have been multiple efforts by senior military

officials here in the united states to reach out and contact their counterparts in russia. but that the phones aren't being answered, which should tell you everything you need to know about the gravitas that should be attached to this ongoing western information warfare operation being waged by both western mainstream media and the united states and nato. ah, you know, propaganda is propaganda if it's targeted it right now. it appears that western propaganda is targeted for it to 3 target, one being of the, the, the, the, the civilians here at home to generate outraged. because our outrage will then you'll political resolve on the part of american politicians who will pressure their european counterparts to engage in very um

a stringent economic sanctions in the, in the revitalization of nato. and then there's also the, the, the, the effort to bolster ukrainian spirits to let and believe them, maybe they're doing better than they can. the 3rd one of course, is to influence a russian domestic political opinion in an effort to create pressure from within russia. on the russian government to alter their behavior in ukraine. ok. the, the only one. the counts as far as rushes concerned is the 3rd one. and one i, i don't believe it's, there is a massive, a scar russia. it's scott, it's, it's not working. all 3 of the points you mentioned are utter failures here. you know, gilmer, one of the things i find very curious in looking at these a negotiation of formats. it's all about up the future of ukraine's external security relations. what is absent is that the internal makeup of ukraine,

and i think nobody really wants to go there. but typically in ukraine and the americans and the british and other might members of nato don't want to go there either. because what's happening, the more the these talk sir, are, are the clock is run out. the more and i'm just speaking more my it myself. i see a partition going on here. and if we don't get this conflict resolved sooner rather than later than it will be a de facto partition gilbert, your thoughts, i think it will be resolved later, rather than sooner. okay. we later being in a time perspective of 2 or 3 weeks, the russians have achieved very important territorial janes in the territories, which they, where they concentrate their efforts and where they had the, i don't you ask militia, joined them from the north. and they came up from the south, they surrounded more evil. they took essentially the whole of the series of literal

. that is, that has great strategic importance. great economic importance for russian, however, does for ends that will rain remain forever with russia. now they are turning around and addressing the issue, which with which they started the war, which is to secure the don't ask, and the guns k o blasts as they were called republics, as they're called today. and members, cotton, a constituent of elements of the russian feder, as a surely will be in a matter of months. now what was missing here is to retort the, the, the, the ganske republic. now a has under its control, 93 percent of the territory that was once through the guns homeless. that is the same status before the war began in 2014. unfortunately, don't ask is a good news in a different situation and don't ask the the powers you forty's control only 50

percent of the land that was once the or boost of done in other going ask and the or the obstacle there are what, what prevented them from achieving similar success through guns. is that most of the $100000.00? 0, soldiers that ukraine concentrated on the yep. river. it initial plans to over run these republics. and they would have done that. had the russians not intervened. that forces till they're no longer about to see is the russians redirecting their firepower and coming up from the rear, striking at those $100000.00 ukrainian licensure. so going over there, this is the, the 2nd stage. what we heard, we heard earlier that the 1st stage of the operation is over. let me go back to a nikolai, i mean, looking at, you know, the failure to or a president biden, to europe. i mean, that was a sight to see. but you know,

a people say they were gaffs, but i think he told the truth, although every single time this is not even about ukraine, it's about regime change in russia. that's what i gleaned from what he had to say gilbert, i'm sorry, nick nick. like go ahead. well, he just laid bare his thinking inadvertently. i mean i, we all follow pub biden's career for many years. he's actually co offered an article on, on our relations with russia, russia's future. and it's all been very clear from the beginning that he is no friend of russia. and it's therefore not surprising that he is professions of understanding and care for the russian people fallen on deaf ears. um, so not nothing surprising there. the question, but nichol, i mean if you have like the toria knew and she was in the obama administration. i

mean she is really the godmother of the my don losing crimea losing the don bass and now she's back. ok. and i've always hardy that victoria knew, and when she gets her clause into ukraine, it just gets smaller and smaller. not really about joe biden. it's about a mindset in the foreign policy elite, nikolai. yes, and that mindset is not going away. and i think it's obviously one of the things that eventually drove fujen to this kind of reaction which is not to justify the reaction i, i am one of those who continue to hope that there could have been some sort of negotiation. i think that prior to this invasion, a rush actually had the diplomatic upper hand, by arguing, pointing to the fact that the western intelligence agencies were predicting

invasion. but that none that happened. now i think the shoes on the a little bit on the other foot, and it's making the case for russia being an aggressor, unfortunately that much easier in the west. and that's another hurdle to overcome meeting. and that's a good point. but scott and scott, russia, it was always the aggressor, irrespective of what it does have been invaded or didn't, and beta. i mean, i agree with nikolai on a rhetorical level. but i mean that this is a godsend for people like victoria new. and because they have so much more work to do, go ahead. we have one minute before we go to the right. go ahead. scott. i don't think russia cares about victoria, and i don't think russia cure. i don't think they care about buying or anybody. russia is going to do a rush is going to do to resolve its own security problems in their, their, in the ukraine right now. doing just that. and i think ukraine will unfold on a time table. it's dictated by moscow, by brussels, not by washington, dc. not by cnn. well, it's at,

that's very interesting because when you are the way i've looked at the coverage of it, i mean, in the way the media leads and political leads. this is their story. it really has its very divorced from the events going on on the ground. and i, i tend to agree with scott. moscow is going to do what it's going to do when it's done. it's saying it's going to say it's done on that point gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break after that short break. we'll continue our discussion on the conflict in ukraine. stay with our team. ah, ah. l look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order is a conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful

about artificial intelligence. the point obviously is to rate trust rather than fear. a very job with artificial intelligence, real summoning with a robot must protect its own existence with a few feet out. this becomes the advocate and engagement. it was betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground.

ah, welcome at the cross walk where all things are considered on peter level t. reminder, we're discussing the conflict in ukraine. ah, let's go back to gilbert in brussels, gilbert. what kind of ukraine is going to come out of this? um, you know, we had the, the, the coup in 2014, the girl crimea voted to leave. ah, don, bow separated itself from kev. we're looking at the, the military operation, alga rushes, military operation, now it will lose its access to the c m most. definitely. and there's nothing anyone can do about that. so what kind of ukraine is there going to be? is it going to be a rum state um, you know, with alisha ideology and all of that, i mean it, is that something that he wants? does anybody want that go ahead?

gilbert run state might be a misnomer because we're speaking about a d, a republics and don boston the territory to the south, but it's been conquered in last 4 weeks fighting, getting the russians control over the whole a hazel, etc literal. thus, maybe 15 percent of the church crane and isn't a much greater percentage of the population before the war. so, um, what we, what, what remains to be seen is whether there will be a genuine partition between the eastern part of the remains of ukraine, which has a fairly high percentage of your hand before this war. i presented to russian speakers and people identified themselves as well as russian as nationally and the western side of the upper which has a considerably higher percentage of a people who consider themselves to be

a ukrainian speakers. that remains the possibility, but i think as an unlikely now who will take control of care that depends on the weeks ahead and what will be the results of the russians declare from beginning they wanted the notification and demilitarization. now that may be a nice objective, the negotiations, but i think it's a still more effective objective in action on the ground. the russians declared today that they have destroyed 90 percent of more of the ukrainian military production. they if they succeed and smashing the $100000.00 ukranian army, that is parked on the left bank on the west of the dipper, then uh, they will effectively both dina, so fi and demilitarized ukraine, whatever one wants to put in the pit down on a piece of paper the mr. zelinski will sign before he runs away or is hanged. ok,

we for he run. so he has an interesting way of putting and make line who's, who's going to determine the outcome of this? a conflict here and what would be a fair outcome? ok, make yourself a neutral observer. what would be fair at the end of the day? i want to keep our keep our viewers in mind with, you know, thinking about 8 years of war and the don bass, which the west took no interest in whatsoever. you know, that is very, very important. the west doesn't recognize the crimea referendum, but the certainly the crimean to do so. we're at this stage here, what would be fair or is that impossible to answer? go ahead. not sure that we can talk in terms of fairness. now that'll have to be determined over more than our lifetimes link pending on interpretations. i'd like to say a few words literally, single words about the kind of ukraine that we're going to see at the after military. the military actions are over,

we will no doubt have a more nationalistic ukraine, a weaker your brain, a more liberal ukraine. we're already seeing the manifestations of this in the arrest of more or less, every opposition figure in ukraine. and of course, a more resentful ukraine for this generation, at least. well, one of them will be resentment against the west as well. yes. yes, yes. and, and the best lesson i think that but full ukrainian elite can take out of this is to be more reliant on their own interest and think about their own interest. first as independent actors. well, you saying the quiet part out loud? because scott out that was going to be my question to do. who is the decision maker

here? because, you know, if it's lensky runs away, i mean, is he? is he pre agent is, does he, does he a person that can actually make a decision? in your opinion, scott? well, the russian certainly hope is because all of these finality is that people expect out of this conflict, for instance, ukrainian recognition the crime, he is russia, ukrainian recognition that the former obligates of the gods can den yeske are now independent of ukraine. perhaps expanded to include a mario, poland, a, and in other areas around the age of literal on. this can only happen a, in a, in a way that in be accepted by the west. if zalinski signs on to it, you know, he has been elevated to a winston churchill like aerobic figure. and the west has articulated that it is up to him to dictate the terms of peace. so your zalinski of course has

a lot of pressure. um he if he surrenders too fast, he might get hung by the right wing nationalists if he drags this thing on the west is going to be a little bit more reticent about providing the, you know, military support that simply gets blown up or captured by the russian, so there's a balancing act, but at the end of the day, zalinski is the only authority in ukraine. they can provide legitimacy to a russian victory, and there will be a russian victory. so it's in russia's best interest, i believe, to keep zalinski empowered to keep him viable and to keep him alive. so that of the surrender. who can be eventually negotiate? nichol. i, you want to jump in there at a word, go ahead about russian victory. i agree every, every thing on the law that we can see on the map and in the cards, points to a russian victory. partly because they've hardly deployed a sufficient. i mean,

i don't one with the face forces, but i mean they're there. they have fewer people there and they have much greater a resources available to them to carry this thing out of to successful conclusion. but the point is, and this happened at the end of the last negotiations. in istanbul, what if russia loses heart? what if the negotiating team actually is given orders to prepare, you know, some sort of agreement without fulfilling the military objectives and the political objectives stated, there could be a tremendous backlash as there was right after the end of the announcement, in a stumble, that some sort of major progress had been made. this was not met well in russian society. yeah. i actually when we did

a program on that and i but again i what i thought it focus on external matters. it didn't talk about internal and that's what i've had with the real kind of odd because it was only half the story here. gilbert, let me kind of change gears here. here. what is the future of nato? because nato failed to keep the peace and for all the propaganda that comes out of that organization, there is not a whole lot of unity, and i think it's only going to get worse here. i think nato and it's, it's dr to dr. russia out of europe forever is actually come up empty handed gilbert. go ahead. but judgment on that really depends on who you're talking to. if you're speaking to people in western europe, laurel, so you know, there was never been so united and just look what we undertaken. if you're speaking to outside observers like myself and i think you're, you're other analysts in that community. then a situation is very different. russia has taken a beating, a nato,

was taken the beating in terms of prestige in terms of it's my ability as a alliance that can pretend that it can protect its members. the other states to consider themselves frontlines, things like the baltics, thanks like poland. i think they all love to take, take notice that united states is standing back and has offered only a mid to the material aide to ukraine. a lot of it by the way, the equipment coming out of storage and not necessarily. ready uses but did i have states has in every way indicated it will not act up to help you craned keep its, its borders, keep it sovereignty, and so forth, even to the extent. and as far as i understand, united states has specifically said they will not stand as a guarantor of ukrainian sovereignty under the terms of any peace, the agreement that may be concluded. if i may just switch back

a moment to the question of, of mr. zelinski, i'm not so sure it's so simple and not so sure that his maintaining his position is in russia's, russia's interests, and not so sure. the concluding abuse treaty is in russia's interests really makes no difference. it is force that speaks you. and i think any european power, who would like to go in again to ukraine, efforts over would be out of it's might. so yeah, cranes future, whether ratified by a peace tree not ratified by history, will be the same as regards the successor terms to against zelinski. he will be a very ugly personnel, and the real plugins of the cuban regime will be clear and whoever succeed zalinski . cholenski is an actor that ascii has been fed all this lines by the best of ustr firms. and the landscape is a great information war deficit for russia. so if he's gone so much better, it's got the thing that i look at as i look at

a lot of these negotiations of just is this being bluster because i tend to agree with what you said on this program. is that political facts and the ground will re determined the outcome here. and you know, you can have all the talk you want. but at the end of the day what, what, what did that stalin say? that a how many divisions does the pope have go ahead scott. no, that that's absolutely true. um, you know, we are prisoners to the information we have right now of the west is very effective . it a flooding of the battlefield, so to speak, in this information war with data that projects one image, russia has not been so effective encountering that. and i am again, i think that's because russia simply doesn't care. russia isn't involved in information war, rushes involved in real war. and, you know, hopefully for the sake of russia, of that war is progressing along the lines that are acceptable to the political

leadership in the military and the military can accomplish this. i do agree that if russia stopped short of fails to achieve effective denounce vacation, and i will tell you this. if the next leader of ukraine is a prisoner to the far right is, is ugly as the gentleman speaks of been russia lost his war. because d nice vacation isn't just the physical destruction of a soft on bus and the other national battalions. de notification is the liquidation of the ideology of step arm, band error that resides, and la vote no less. russia takes care of that. they haven't de modified anything. so i hope o j campaign is going to be broader. and so many people think having to have to fight that ideology in this century as well, who would have thought as all the time? we have gentlemen many thanks my guests in kingston, delmar, and in brussels. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, darky. see you next time. remember crossed up rules

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with an r t crew survives a sniper ambush, while reporting from the streets of war torn city of mario bull. this road just before this building is also covered by you or crated. so i thought we lived out twice with twice shorter. thus russia's top diplomat meets with his counterpart in india as the countries strengthened their relations. but britain's foreign secretary has also traveled to india in a reported effort to derail the talks. germany's chancellor pledges.