picked up by, oh, by anyone for any purpose. mm. mm hm. kind of people held before carnival are not there because they stole the car. they are not common criminals for their enemy combatants and terrorists who were be detained for acts of war against our country. and that is why different rules have to apply on to the continuity is extraordinary. if you look at a sketch of the cubicle and of the student volunteer at mcgill university, and then if you look forward to 2002, when the 1st al qaeda suspects are being confined at camp x right at mont, panama there, and goggles gloves and here most that look, i god,

just like that 1957 sketch in after 911. all of us working at p h r. i realized that there would very likely be a huge problem of interrogation. gone wild, meaning torture, cruel. in human integrating te treatment. mm . the use of extreme isolation was one of a range of techniques that were employed by officials interrogators and so forth, literally starting all the way back in 2002 for many, many days. and it is just unbelievably destructive. i was the 1st to really learn

to go down there in the commission process in a 4 to 6 months period. you see a market deterioration. and many respects we if you're a year or 2, it's solitary confinement. you're going to ask the defendant for the 1st time in 2 years to, to, to interact with other human beings. beyond his lawyer and his jailers. it's going to be the jury that's going to decide his life. he's going to be put on the stand. and that's where he's going to speak for the 1st time to the world for 2 years. if to be shut off from the world, it's impossible who who

has been 9 years, an active duty. and then i'm still in the reserves in 2011. the department of defense assigned me to a system, a team representing algae mohammed, the defendant in an island case. what i can say is that the u. s. government has acknowledged that for the period between 20032006, mister mohammed was held at, has certain undisclosed foreign locations, black size, otherwise known as flexes written. it was water boarded over $183.00 times as correct. i can say that there is a memos between the department of justice. i various organs of the u. s. government to include the department of defense, the central intelligence agency, as to what types of enhanced interrogation techniques would be authorized for certain types of detainees to

when they began signing for pantano, they moved her to having psychologists do interviews with patients. discovering vishal flaws, individual sources of trauma and security. and then they, they also discovered because they were germany with arabs and muslims. a muslim males are uniquely upset by miti and also by female fiscal contact. and fear of dot race has always played a role in american torture. it's the american torture techniques are part of old military punishments and punishments that were used on slaves and, and, and you might find that strange, but there was one area where slaves were never whipped,

but you use clean techniques on them. so they didn't leave marks, and that was if you're going to sell a slave, because a slave that had with marks means that they were not going to obey. and so a clean slave was so got a higher price in the cotton industry in the southern delta states of the united states depended completely on torture. over the course of, for decades human beings by using their bodies as a technological form, as a technological machine were able to multiply by 8 times the amount of cotton, an individual person could pick in a single day. so the use of torture is absolutely tied at the very beginning ah,

in these kinds of cases many people in the system for the people who are imposing these conditions, believe that ordinary punishment is too good for these people. and a lot of it is about the other, this of them religiously, ethnically, nationally, culturally, it's easier that it would be to someone from your own community to, to that. so in guantanamo the secretary of defense rumsfeld appointed

a commander jeffrey miller, whose job was to extract information. and jeffrey miller made up a cd or staff did. and i included a rack and are under the oh, with the permission of the commander their general sanchez. e, then can ren training sessions for the interrogators and the staff at abu ghraib prison, or he transmitted the guantanamo techniques to the abil gradstaff. basically, the restraints were removed and they were told to get results. the thing that became so clear is that what united states was doing was not a secret. it was hidden in plain sight. it wasn't really until the photographs from abu ghraib were released, which were just, you know, the tip of the iceberg of what was actually happening. that people in this country

began actually talking about it what we didn't know was exactly what to do. and if i had to work on it all over, yeah, i would recommend exactly the right. same course of actions that we did exactly verizon them all. not all of them i can differently. whether one does $1600.00 of them. we've only seen up in about 20 maybe 30

is 1600 and the, the worst ones are, are the ones we i'm seeing. ah so and yes they were violating a lot. i regulations in what they were doing, but the that they were operating within a system in which they were condition they were structured in order to violate those laws when you arrived at the wave where you aware of what had happened there. oh,

almost immediately after we arrived la drive, we were briefed that there was misconduct, but we weren't given details. and the interrogators that i knew who had been there during that time didn't. they didn't talk about it. so we, we didn't know. i learned everything through the news. we understood the geneva conventions to mean that absolutely. you know, you, you, you couldn't, you, you couldn't harm anybody in your care that your primary responsibility was their well being rather than putting them in distress. but then we were confused, and then of course we got these memos from the justice department and from the pentagon. authorizing the use of much more harsh techniques. we started adopting those techniques when i was station in mosul. among them were stress position, sleep deprivation ah,

inducing hypothermia to say any, any way we can put them in distress using dogs. this is, this is a foot cell called slippery slope so that they take the gloves off policy allowed american interrogators from going from a certain list of techniques that were let's say aloud. and even those were already torture to doing extreme things, rape and sodomy in, you know, at the most extreme forms of physical and psychological print tally on 03,

live with me. i just in both, both the models you need to do both got nothing new. please deal with a, a, a, a a with a, with

a personal number here. we are loaded with a what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race is on a very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult. time time to sit down and talk. you can just torture somebody on a whim without knowing how to do it. and the reality of course, is that torture like any physical skill right? requires training requires practice. it requires an institutional setting,

a built environment, really, you need to have this institution, my space, physical space in which you can perform torture. we want, you know, we, we want to be successful. i was against the war, i'm a liberal, i didn't vote for george bush, but i wanted to do my job well, you know, i felt like, you know, if i can be successful and get intelligence from these people and we could in the or quickly that would be better for, for a rock better for, for us my, the people for the reason days has been a focus, a few who have betrayed our values. only the reputation of our country. and we have 6 or 7 investigations underway and a military justice system that has values. we know that those in law

whoever they are, will be brought to justice in . i was angry at our leadership because i knew that they were prosecuting interrogators and guards, and leadership wasn't being held accountable. i i, i was disappointed myself and our behavior were there was terrible. so i was, i was, was very angry when they have a great trial happened. but i, i got a call from the lawyer for chip frederick. and he asked me to act as part of the defense team. i said, well, the person that you should really talk to is, is embargo. he ran this, experimenting the 19 seventies and the situations of abu ghraib as far as i can tell, are those conditions that are also reproduced in the csm barto experiments. chip,

frederick, he's the man here. oh, he was the one who had the idea of putting in electrodes on the hood. his lawyer said, the problem now is the military want to use him in a shell trial in baghdad. in abu ghraib, not only not a single senior officer went to trial. not a single seni office. they got a recall letter of reprimand. in fact, in some cases they even got promoted. that the, the offices. so it's, it's the people at the top always take care of the people at the top. mm. for those individuals who were directed by the us government to, to engage in any technique that i believe would price level torture, crore and human or degrading treatment. i think they lose a little bit of themselves every time they have to come in and human act. and am i

parker is out to them as well. i, frankly, in, i don't think i noticed that until i got back. and then, you know, i tremendous guilt, and i think a lot of us to look signs that were later diagnosed as p p s. d, but i don't know. i think that they have another name for now and i think it was, it's called like moral moral failure. sorts of assistance is feeling that people come back with after being in war. if they feel like they think they've done things better outside of their moral compass, ah,

we're still evaluating how we're gonna approach the whole issue of interrogations, detentions, and so forth. and i don't believe that anybody has above belong. on the other hand, i also have a belief that we need to look forward as lowe's, as possible looking backwards ah, will look forward backward. well, forward is going to be like backward. if you don't do something about what happened in the past, nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past. and for this, among other people, i fault. president obama, essentially he gave everybody, dick cheney donald rumsfeld. he gave them all a free pass george w bush. they're all going to be rehabilitated. they're all going to be treated as great statesman. one day. i mean, they gave president obama

a nobel prize for not being george w bush. the question, of course, the world tap, dancing around with or avoiding as does it work as torture work doesn't work. people that have information that are part of an underground apparatus, a terrorist organization at revolution or organization accomplished organization. whatever organized form of collective alan chip i b, they won't break now and the people that you pick up that are innocence. yes. you will tell them to pieces, you'll destroy them. you will ruin them. i think that a few of the people that passed passed through my hands as an interrogator did have intelligence. but most of the vast majority of the people that i dealt with work just being picked up because they were males of military age and they were just get

swept up. and, and these raves, i don't think torture is always being used as a method to gain information or, or confessions. it's often just been used are out of it, out of anger and fear for right after september 11th attacks, september 11th, 2001 a very well known harvard law professor islander schwartz came up with the ticking bond theory. and he said, so what happens, for example, if a terse, as a ticking time bomb a small nuclear bomb in times square and upon sticking,

and we only have so much time, we must torture. and then, you know, the show $24.00 of course started every segment. well, that giant clock ticking away now. and it kind of gave visual reality visual imprint that resonated with this discussion of ticking time bomb. in addition to the way that it framed our reception of torture on a popular level, just among the civilians in guantanamo itself, they were getting pressure from the department of defense and they have these meetings. and in the meetings they screened the 2nd season of $24.00 and use that as a jumping off place to decide what tortures what methods they were going to propose to donald rumsfeld that they would use against the people they were holding in guantanamo. and they was very influential on the people that i worked with.

i know that some of the techniques that people wanted to use they had should they had seen on television programs. for instance, i mentioned to you our leaders wanted us to mark and mark executions. and also using electricity, and these were things that they had seen on television. i mean, no, no one trained us on that. that wasn't, that was simply from tell we're here in the united states, we have this picture of torture as something that is done by the lonely person, the lonely hero, the man who does it more in sorrow than in anger because he's absolutely forced to because so many lives depend on it, is willing to take the moral stain and the moral pain on him. and in order to save all these people, there was always this anxiety in american politics. which is that democracy kind of makes, makes weaker and less capable of taking the real things that real men should be

able to do. there's a very gendered, masculine este sort of notion behind this real men, torture and and, and democracy makes us sissy's lou in the middle east. we have people shopping the heads off christians. we have things that we have never seen before. i would bring back water boarding and i'd bring back a hell of a lot worse than water boarding house today. if you're in your terrorism, people could be a free trial detention in m. c. c to in south for 2 years. they're going anywhere. would you say that the manhattan m c. c? is while he done in plain sight, a black sight, an american fine? yes. i would say it's

a black side that the sense of the black sites that people are being taken out and tortured, but they're being tortured in the way that their daily lives are being managed or not managed. they're not living in a day or a life. they are a, a neglected product in a warehouse where there's no maintenance, you know, i mean, even as like the most is the most sole engaging place i've ever been. one of the things that we need to consider now and has become a quite an issue, is how many of these soldiers who used to participate in these kinds of american techniques are now policeman and immigration officers who manage mexicans and hispanics and other sorts of things in integrations, today, there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques, including freezing rooms, sleep deprivation, all these things are now being used on, on,

on immigrants and children. so this is one of the terrible things about techniques is that they circulate between war and home and whatever you do in war comes home. ready move. ready ready ready ah, if we keep torture clean. ready then we can feel that the thing that's being done to protect us isn't really so bad. we have become used to the idea that it is a legitimate moral stance that we do anything we need to in order to feel safe to feel secure. i mean, a bizarre way, it's as if the government is trying to make a deal with us. you let us do whatever we want over here on the dark side. and in return i promise you will never die. it's like this fake promise of a mortality,

but of course, what time on the history of the american empire, a certain 50 years from now, historians might have to say, as french historians have said about french algeria, that something was lost in the russian rights of torture. of moral authority that made america war later sacrificed for this the shamira of effective interrogation. ah ah ah ah ah

ah ah ah ah ah ah, a

ah. only one main thing is important for knox. ism internationally speaking. that is, that nations, but that's allowed to do anything, all the mazda races, and then you have the mind, the nations who are the slave americans, proc obama and others have had a concept of american exceptionalism. international law exist as long as it serves american interest. if it doesn't, it doesn't exist by turning those russians into this dangerous go. you man, that wants to take over the world. that was a conscious strategy. so some golf out of it on your own, i english v i n b, i not leashed off to exhibit in tablet block. nato said it's ours. we move east.

the reason the us, hey jim, it is so dangerous. is it the lie? the sovereignty of all the countries, the exceptionalism that american uses and its international war planning is one of the greatest threats to the populations of different nations. if nato, what disbanded shareholders in united states and elsewhere in lodge obs companies would lose millions and millions or is business and business is good. and that is the reality of what we're facing, which is fashion. and what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy. even foundation, let it be an arms race is on offense. very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very particular time time to sit down and talk

a phase off battalion that is said to be not c affiliated organizations rating as a militia in your country. for me, you know, they are what they are. they are what they are. that's the ukranian president's response to the far right. as of battalions alleged atrocities is comes as human right to watch or does an investigation into a legit torture of russian soldiers by the ukrainian military woman whose photos appeared in western media after what key of officials claimed to be a russian air strike on mario maternity home sheds more light on the incident, claiming that the building was occupied by ukrainian soldiers at the moment of the attack. also ahead. i an angry crowd. boos. german chancellor all are held during his speech in the city of ethan .