ah ah ah ah, ah, hello and welcome to crossed out. were all things considered? i'm peter level. it will be long debated whether the war in ukraine could have been avoided. what is not really open to debate is how centers of power have been shifting to the east, the rise of asia as it were, the war in ukraine. his only accelerated that trend ah,

discussed these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess. jordan, samuel lee in budapest, he's a pod, castor at the gaggle, which can be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow we have to meet re bobbitt. she is a political analyst and editor. it was me internet media project for a gentleman. crosstalk rules and i think that means you can jump in in time you want and i would appreciate it. ok, let's go to budapest 1st in, as i said in my introduction, georgia, it will be origins of the conflict in ukraine. the current one will be debated for a long time, but there's one thing that seems quite obvious to me that people don't really want to talk about, is that it's not a catalyst for a major shift paradigm shift in the world. but it's accelerating. and this is something that we've seen before, and because we have deem a bob it's on the program, i'd like to talk about the limits of neo liberal ideology because i think this is one of the things is conflict tells us so much about. go ahead, george. yeah, no, you're absolutely right. the thing of it is that the historians would indeed debate

whether a war could have been avoided. there were many signals starting from the fall of 2021, that a serious crisis was impending. the tone of the kremlin had changed substantially. there was real concerns about nato policy, especially us policy in the ukraine. and despite all the warnings that were coming from moscow, the united states made their just chose to ignore them and tried to follow russia off with a lot of going to meet meaningless promises flooding that's, that's entirely true. and then to the shock of the western leaders and the, the thing with the leaders was saying, oh russia has russia has failed in the shock of these leaders. the what they were planning on,

which was the sanctions regime. the mother of all sanctions are going to bring the russia to it's needed. so we're going to bring the coach in regime our power that that has failed. they've failed to get the rest of the world on board with their sanctions regime, with their condemnations of russia and all that. and suddenly showing us is that western countries isolated most of the rest of the world simply doesn't date the ukraine crisis. the way the western powers, i don't think it's also russia spoke and above all, they don't think that it's the world in their interest to sabotage the russian economy, but sabotaged the world economy. so suddenly that, you know, the nato powers, the north america and japan, australia, they are the ones that are isolated and russia is in the international mainstream. d, my, the thing is that's very interesting when all this is when,

because of the ideological disposition, the web has their blinded where they can't see reality in front of their face because what informs them is their id, ology, as you're saying, you know, of course, the world is going to condemn russia because we condemned them. that's. that's a false logic. go ahead demon. well, again, the way we are and, you know, we just oh, key growers local in the future. and that's why because you knew that you knew that but you show me that

so you know, when we are to stage you know what you want something we should do. you know, we should point you, you never know very bad. you know, the last game, these communicate and the all the all the communication. right? yeah. also hubris. ok, i mean, you brought up sergeant schultz, the chancellor of germany. let me go to george right now. isn't it? with the situation that demon bring him in reverse. i mean, couldn't have nato member saying, no, you will never be in nato. this is

a close topic. we are an important country in nature. it's done, it's over. let's move on. but sergeant schultz didn't have the grab a task to do that, george? no, that's absolutely right, because if we remember the name, so article 10 that nato loves to invoke about other countries joining nato. it's only on the condition that nato, we so invites in other countries to join an invite on the basis of unanimity and all the members of major will have to agree to invite ukraine to join with you. graham has been wrong by watching them since at least 2014. they would have been the easiest thing in the world, joe landscape. no, it's not going to happen. you know, let's well, on the back burner for at least 25 years or more ago or 25 years. so then you would have gone along with everything and he wouldn't have any choice. but no one put

that pressure on any effect. the response of the western powers was when russia submitted those ultimatums in december, 17 was hey, we're just rejecting it, you know, who's russian to tell us what to do. you know, we decided security follows it. it was the western powers that treated these demands with arrogance. and refuse even to understand how serious the russians are taking it over and over again is that we want legal guarantees. we don't want empty promises who are legal guarantees. so there's no, it's not only immediate agenda and actually just picks that not only immediate agenda. so it wasn't, it was the, the major power of the world. this is about interesting. over the last couple of days come the kremlin spokesperson, dimitri pisca. he said that europe needs to sober up from the american bourbon. ok, which i think i've never heard of, put it that way, but i kind of like it. and again, talking about installation, the way we,

the top of the program here is that when you, europe in people, once russia to shaken its boots. but in the, in fact, europe is found itself with its pants down because the, the, the sanctions regime that was supposed to cripple and overthrow the, the current political arrangement in russia has utterly failed. i would say just reverse, strengthened it. and, and right in the children, russia has friends around the world because you know why? because they have geo political interest and then wrapped blinded by ideology. go ahead. lima. yeah. you will show maybe the mom is doing. they don't know what the go. well, you know,

we are the war. we don't see people who are feel like all the way. so even with the size control, whether you know, we know not a year at the beach and they cut the really is probably, i mean don't you remember why, why was it all the way older

more so you know the yeah, you know what happens and you are absolutely right, there will be cheap for models for these people. and when they tried to be received and the rock worked, i mean, they said we made a new day when we brought it to the raven a you know who you are. you also said

to all the demons, you know, they're back in the world, but you're just that tell. it's so much better. they're surprised you're, oh, how could this happen? you know, i mean, that means that they're, they're talking to themselves. they're in their own group thing. you know, they do finding the terms and conditions of what can happen and not happen. and they truly believe that their man grins of the universe. and now they're beginning to realize, oh, where energy dependent on russia, what are we going to do? i mean, but they're, they get so ahead of their feed. they don't think about the implications of their own actions. george. yeah, that's right. that's right. but of course, was that cheap, but a definite pattern in all of western foreign policy is that off the everything goes now. it's like, well, we didn't really expect this to happen then maybe it was a mistake to press for a major membership where you brain maybe it was

a mistake to dismiss rushes concerns in such a peremptory badger where the same thing of the vietnam had the same things off the iraq, same things are not having maybe we shouldn't have issue that we made them to so yeah, there was happens. but the extraordinary thing is that economics and finance is something that you would expect. western leaders on the bad. i mean, they live for this was the capital one thing they know it's, you know, we can all makes and yet give a, let me, whoa, we didn't realize that russia is a lot less dependent on international trade than we are. and so therefore, when we impose sanctions, we are going to be hurt more than russia as we think the interest his st in just a was almost entirely more darky and on the sanctions were to out of its existence . and if you, if you start raising and, and stealing assets, well maybe they'll do it to us. oh my goodness, that's not what, wow,

they're going to do to us what we do to them. it's extraordinary there, but they're narrow mindedness of all, it's 10 seconds. in the shop. that's right. and even now they have the know to say that you know, well, you better keep sending us the oil on the gas and don't you dare expect any payment from it. just give it to us immediately. and bowen, i'm going to pay you anything. i'd hold out, but we're going to get gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real mistake. oh ah ah ah

ah ah ah welcome back across the dock were all things are considered on peter well this is a home addition to remind you, we're discussing some real issues. ah

. okay, let's go back to jimmy here in moscow. i think one of the most interesting things with this, a war of, by sanctions against russia. and this is a war. ok. and i think people have to understand that that all means except for direct military confrontation, which is always in the cards. when we have this kind of scrum, a conflict is a dollar, and it's, it's really quite amazing. it's kind of like a self goal of the uses and abuses of the dollar. because the petro dollar is very much in question. we have more and more countries that are getting out of the dollar because, well, they've been treasury department can pres our assets. ok. and in the u. k. it's, you know, all the barrage sheets, you know, we get this oligarchy, take this yard and without any due process whatsoever. i mean, it's really quite extraordinary. there's been a, there's

a very large literature about, you know, the fate of the dollar and how it will one day, like every other fee out currency be replaced. but this is accelerated. i mean by this, the very, a cavalier attitude about how you can use a financial system to your political gain when it's supposed to be used as a, a, a, a process which everyone has competence in the currency. they're taking that competence away from the currency as we speak. go ahead. well, i think you can go all very and i know with a lot all calls will have all rational needs removed. all services will be probably ought to be changed around the same

same german mosque just wanted to see when the finances are when you won't even do your own from or you know, people read all the people in the wall. if you work in new york, when you read, they also you get it in your, in the knowledge. and i think the reason why russia actually the reason why it was they will need

the rules because how does the bio white sending for you to get it and then why, what do you want to watch too much away in so that way you won't be able to charge one of the outcomes of this in you and i predicted it here, this program and our podcast. the gaggle is that europe is actually does kneecamp itself. i mean, because if the, the russians want to deal with the europeans,

they just call washington or has, you know, to an intermediary go to washington because there's, there's no interlocutor in europe left. none of these people are serious. they're not certainly not decision makers. and, and europe is, it's diminished itself completely and whatever works comes because, you know, particularly at the end of last year, up into the military operation in ukraine. there was just gobbledygook. i mean, they didn't want, they, they didn't say anything serious. they didn't quite serious characters. i would even say bad faith characters and now this is little i'm a, they have, i mean, even they have something interesting to say. mean, why should you believe him now go ahead. george. know exactly what has happened is what always happens, which is the united states, instigates a crisis, but somebody else has to pick up the tab at somebody else's always euro. so you know, they, they applied august, russia, liggins, germany couples off from russia and energy. well,

by liquefied natural gas from us, it's going to be much more expensive and you don't really have the resources for it, but invest in the resources to develop a liquefied natural gas. very nice for the united states. while the united states just meaningless to go with cutting ourselves off from russian oil, which doesn't matter much in the american. and then the same thing is happening with this refugee flow. you know, the, the refugees of you're boring out of your brain. well, we're going to pay for all this, isn't we? we don't level all 56000000 a lot of people. and where are they heading to adding to what germany, their job is going to have to accommodate them, provide them with work permit, with housing benefits, welfare benefits. everything. on top of that, germany is also committed itself to increasing its military expenditure at the request of the united states. where are they going to buy their weapons?

george, we're going to buy them from the united united states. so that's why the russian say, well, you know, obviously europe isn't able to look after its own interest and why should we talk to the europeans, will go directly to the bus, which is the united states. and we have seen this time, and again, which is the united states, instigates this and who picks up the, you know, it's a junior european partners demon, there's been so much talk over the last few years about russia's embrace of china or the russia chinese embrace. and people on the west of all, we've been very concerned about a growing concerned about it. but they, they're the ones that have actually made it possible when, you know, you know, 20 years ago, thinking of a strategic relation between russia and china was not bill people said it. now it's the fact. well again, these 3 or 4

been told the chinese right about you know, make sure they probably leave the genocide. oh no. oh, the other end is that they they do not call they will be in the man as the guy you all and he

is lazy and he may or may be wrong. only when he reached the age of diva. if i could use majority in the us and instigates a crisis in ukraine to into port regime change in russia and then they go to the fact that you get the rest of about a problem that we created a new great, i think the chinese think you know you, people are lunatics. ok. and you know, you, you know, it may be in maybe cops. right. you know, maybe stay off the bourbon. ok. because they look quite seriously outside, outside the western world. this looks like a form of lunacy here. george, i want to come in something with you and i have talked about before media coverages of this, particularly in the us. haven't you noticed on box news?

prime time a week ago it was all ukraine. now it's references made because of energy prices and demand and, and what's going on with the dollar haven't, i guess, you know, they're really beginning to realize that the american public is not concerned about a problem that far away, particularly when they're so there was so much option in you profane and now that story is being whitewashed. it's very difficult. it's awkward here, but the beginning to realize that this is an a lead issue. it's not a citizen. me issue, george. it's a very, very interesting because the, initially, i think fox news wanted to play in the way that i've always laid the cold war. horrible. e will russia horrible evils? soviet union, breast yeah. of course, job style and versus the freedom loving peoples of the world. and they realize

that their audience, that cool world is just simply wasn't biased. i mean, the both ways american have very serious economic problems of their own growing inflation out of the control border crime and so on. but above all, i think there's a, there's a feeling among americans that this was a war instigated by the biden crew. i mean that the, you know, there's some feeling that may not follow things as closely as we do, whether the feeling that that buys the biting family, the obama, by ministration, all of these characters, they have the opposite elbows in the ukraine and therefore, think americans and the rest of the world to pay for their own hubris and their corruption, the corruption of the hub in 2014. so, you know, and i think that that's the view of the audience. and that's why these, the, the initial walks response has been thrown down. is that so let's talk about energy

independence. yeah, there's a way we're going to be dependent on russia. yeah. yeah. what about energy independence telling? it's a response to the core audience, a demon we have about a minute left me a very, it's not very often the russians get to speak about what they think about their country and what's going on in ukraine. would you explain maybe to our audience, how people are in russia? are thinking about this conflict in ukraine? go ahead. you got about 40 seconds. go ahead. you know where the where, oh, what, what the, where we know about it where it. well, it was a yeah. i mean, if you been watching this program,

particularly since the last quarter of last year, which both of you are on very, very often we talked about the inevitability of a conflict. when the, the west was completely ignoring other people's interests only their own interest. and they were ideological ones as all the time we have, i want to think, my guess in budapest and here in moscow i think our be worse for watching us here in our dc. and next time, remember ah ah, ah, a with a

with i think it's a fella on your goals and those are the hope that it is your media reflection of reality

in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation, whole community. are you going the right way? where are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? what is great in the world corrupted, you need to descend a. ready join us in the depths will remain in the shallows. oh, when i was showing wrong when i just don't hold any well. yes to shape out becomes the advocate. an engagement. it was the trail.

when so many find themselves well, the part we choose to look for common ground, the men's record was signed. on february, the 12th 2015, it was meant to end military conflict in ukraine, between government forces and on bass militia groups. the agreement stipulated that both sides would withdraw heavy weapons to an equal distance from the contact line . this left several 100 settlements trapped between opposing forces. local civilians became unwitting witnesses to and victims of the continuing civil war. thousands of people still live in small towns and villages that have become the new front line. they call this area the.