ah, hello, welcome to worlds apart. the idea of creating a clone of neither around the pacific ocean has been tantalizing the minds of western strategist ever since washington announced his intention to give it to asia . but it never quite came to fruition, in part because of india hesitancy isn't going to be more likely now after the conflict in ukraine. well, to discuss it are now joined by praveen saxony, our former indian army officer, and the editor of the force news magazine is great to talk to you, sir. thank you very much for your time. thank you. now ukraine is half a world away, but i was personally surprised by how much attention is paid to this subject in the indian media. and frankly, by the level of the depth of analysis. because this is quite something something different than what we seen. the western media, i mean, not supporting russia, but understanding the context and all the antecedent, strategic and secure antecedents. how come the indians seem to be more

knowledgeable on this topic than many of the europeans who are much closer to the actual place of conflict? is he, there are 2 fundamental things here. the 1st is that the russia is both a european body as well as ation bar number 2. 1 o, b, russia than the chinese. this shared a water view and which is precisely the reason that they have this ready are you to strategic partnership, which was described by the chinese leader as rock solid. and the 3rd thing is doug . so then there are 2 security architectures which are coming up in the asia pacific region. as we are all aware that this is the area which will decide the big fod geopolitics in this century. so one security architecture is the asia pacific security architecture, which has been conceived by china,

fully backed by russia. as this is pivoted on the built and road initiative, which russia supports. the 2nd architecture is the endo pacific architecture, which is america lift. it is led by the americans, not there's a big difference between the 2. and the big difference is that the 1000000000 load initiative, it is structured at all. and if i may use once in days, it is of old shared prosperity and cooperative security. i mean, it's a subject that as we get off till december, we can actually narrow it down. so you have one symbol assist. the other thing, whether there is one beneficiary of old, the world, or whether they can be meaning grace at deriving the benefit from living together on this plan, right? so now coming to the american teen america does not have any answer to debate to lord initiative. a medical always think symptoms of deterrence and

a corner school of redundancies, defense not today. the american military are fees that they are not really up to the levels. and therefore under the by did administration a new concept periods award. instead of calling it deductions, now they call it integrated it others, which basically means that the allies and the partners barclays, india. they will also have a ruled. having said this, what america has been able to do with the da's office of present gum in the movie government. we are not an ally. we are not nimbly p alliance with the americans. yet, the government has st. ford foundation military agreements with the americans, which basically means that we can do advance community exercises with them as well as with other party. exactly, exactly. so this whole idea of ford,

when you go perfect, you shouldn't need to as far as long as he's concerned, who's a state cancer of china, the foreign minister. he has called it this, an ition natal. it has 3 confidence. competent one is the court for the other 4 nations, your america, japan, ryan, australia and india. lucy, all the 3 are military alliances. the, our military alliance with america. india is the outsider. but yet the india has gone and signed the foundation agreements with so it is part of their comeback maneuvers, but it still keeps answer options fairly open. do i understand you correctly that essentially the difference between these 2 are security architecture models is whether ah, you only one country with the help of its allies, gatzo in security needs mat, according to its own, very strict, our desires,

or whether it is not only about security as in the 2nd model, but also about economic economy and prosperity and actually creating a secure environment that also allows you to leave and let leave. this is precisely where the beta road initiative does use heat. now coming to, so there are 3 elements, and this is shanita, did the chinese stock off. and they said, this is the biggest rectal them. one is the court. second is the arcus, the somebody which was signed up between australia, the u. k and use that is the august somebody. and the 3rd is the 5 eyes intelligence. so this is what wong equals the ation nato. basically, the whole concept here is, in addition to integrated deterrence, which is the partnership of the military us military. when the allies under partners like india, they basically wanted

a rule for natal. can i ask you because once you i, when you figure out how you're going to protect something, you need to figure out what is that you are protecting. yeah. in these vision of security in the, as you call it, in the pacific security with essentially when they americans in the lead, everybody else and shipping in. but the americans making their own decisions according to their own vision of the world. what is it that, that, that security model is protecting d r a? basically this ab want to protect the ceilings of communication from western pacific to india in ocean region. but what they are trying to do is sort of put pressure on the p l in navy, which has the maritime silk road going along the ceilings of traditional communications. lucy, they want to basically put pressure on their trade. they want to put pressure on

the chill points. the 3 big joe points, one is street of malacca street of hummel's, which is on the other extreme. and then you have bulk of been deep. so these are the teacher points as far as the, it's a way of protecting, ultimately the american dominance, right? precisely eminence of the way to land constraining the chinese many times. so good old, which is a component of the beta road initiative. that is precisely what they're doing, and america is a buckland. ok, i can understand why americans with one that did, even though i think that rationale could also be a question, but what are the partners deriving from that? in addition to just simply giving americans the money to fulfill their own goals. so you see the whole idea is that america is still the super bowl, which it is not my concept of thinking is that today it has a competitor in china. but the whole thing is that american dominance should remain in the asia pacific region. so therefore,

these popular chipping it because they have our allies why india is going, is for a different reason altogether. india's reason is, india believes that it can balance military part of china by being close to the americans. i hope we can come back to this issue after we discussed something that i began with, which is the conflict in ukraine. i heard you say that there is a difference between a warrant and the military operation. and i think that is a very surprising idea to many of the europeans who somehow managed to believe that there is no military power in the use of military power in the world, even though that's been going on for the last 30 years. so what is the difference between the military operation and a war? so it's a huge difference when we talk of war, what is coming into plays all the domains of war to be activated to did that or

something like 5 or 6 domains or 4. then you, then you proud it is what you want to do. you build that whole plan. for example, if rochelle was to go to war to model with any country, i would assume they will 1st of all, try and attack the electromagnetic spectrum. they will try and finish the communications. water is basically a planning with all the capabilities that you have. the onset is all the capabilities you have. what i understand that a ship are going in ukraine is the out of wording back to lot of capabilities for natal. just in case natal comes in and what they're trying to do is limited. this is precisely what president put then said that we are doing special military operations. so it is not a classic war. well, and according to present, which and the goal of this millage operation is to take control or suppress ukraine's military capabilities and limit the influence of certain and far right

groups that have an influence on both on the governmental processes that are being used as proxy forces by ukranian government, as well as by outside forces. but apart from that, russia is not interested in taking ukrainian sovereign to, for example, or ruling ukraine, re incorporating ukraine into like some for more of a new soviet union. but despite these limited focus, i heard you say that this military operation managed to undermine or damage native credibility. so there is a wider dimension. what does it mean practically? and do you think nater even care is about credibility? what is it? what is needed? credibility in practical terms. let's start with, what is nato's credibility and then move on to how it is damaged? credibility is ideally, natal should have finished with the war, subject. it no overt, no, it says that we are defensive organization. they are not. well, i,

there ways of x day extension solving of explosion there hubbard, you see starting from the clinton administration, they've done that. so when you are increasing your area often fluids, then certainly you order defensive organization. nope. so basically what the americans were trying is to nato 2 things. one is to keep strengthening the draws it locked big buck to ship. that is important for them that the cool water is over . but we should have a form horde with the concert log dig partnership. and the 2nd was that if natal could have a rule in the asia pacific, there were also looking at dug. no. what has happened during these ukrainian special military operations is i believe their credibility has gone down tremendously. why it has gone down is because the us, they were supposed to deter russia. and they got detoured by russia. when president

clinton said that if any fly zones is created, that you'll see doc means, it will not be tolerated on if any, a crock, a with arms and ammunition takes off from any place, and comes into the ukrainian territory. i will take it that that country's part of the war could be to has done nothing. so these smaller countries in the isha pacific, which honestly do not want militarization, they do not want. you can ask the us young people as he are states. nobody wants militarization but the americans were hell bent. in fact, in june of 2021 needle in the conference was suggesting that they should have a larger role in the asia pacific. so i think now there'll be a lot of pressure pushback from the asi on states that the lord war, these people here. so the credibility is nagondo. okay, mr. hatch hani, we have to take a short break right now with ill be back in just a few moments statement. ah

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a with with, with, with with. mm hm. welcome back to wells. far as with pregnancy, heney, a former engine army officer and the editor of force and use magazine. mr. haney before the break. we were talking about the fact that the doctrine of nato and the

american security doctrine is largely based on deterrence, which is essentially an idea that any country will be able to take any insult from the americans. because the fear of the american response would be larger. and as you sat with russia, ukraine, it didn't work. and you also mentioned that other countries are watching. but do you think they're just watching a g? think the, that practical steps the way they conduct their foreign policy or security policy may change as a result of what they're observing in this wider clash between russia and native because there are some, are some fight on the ground, but there is also much bigger. unseen clash between these giants happening. so you see my assessment is that the credibility of chinese has gone up

in the region. why is he that is because the french president, the junglin jossla, even president by then they all have been con, troubleshooting with cheesy, big what she brings is doing precisely what he believes. and he believes that the security of a nation is absolutely important. so he's sticking with the russians. no. so what will happen here in the shop is fake, is because the credibility has gone up and see for the chinese ward is always the last option. chinese, believin cognitive defeat of the enemy, a cognitive confrontation of the enemy. so basically what they are pushing forward is prosperity. and at the same time, if something happens, they basically believe in what we call the grizzled operations. we keep working in those operations at the same time, build up deterrence,

which keeps the americans at b, which is precisely what they've done in thigh, what, what they've done in south china sea. so everybody's playing their own to turns game. i know for a fact that the art of war, that famous work of religion, chin, military genius was studied by the k g b officers in soviet time. so i'm pretty sure that the russian leadership is influenced by this idea. but at the same time, i'm, as we mentioned before, there have been several waves of nato expansion. and while russia expressed its displeasure, it never really put it. it's feet down. why do you think the russians have waited for so long and wasn't in precisely because of this patients when they called strategic patients, that they had to take the military measures right now, which is, i think we would agree the worst possible option. so you see a, 1st of all, this is nothing sudden a motor, there's nothing southern about it. why is he that is,

please recall in the 2008 need tube, which artist summit that is the dame when the americans decided to put their anti ballistic messiah messiah system in poland. i'm. this is the time when officially ukraine applied for natal membership. and this is the time for the 1st i am president with it who had kept quiet right from 1000 to became president. i think 2008 key to not mention. i mean, he was not offensive at all. he's not looking for greater russia at all. he said that this is unacceptable. georgia and you could end is completely unacceptable. anything coming here? now if you keep trying to bring the orange of lucian, there, you see since 2021, ukraine has been going exercises. they are embittered in the common in control of the needle structure. i mean, this was going on and everybody knew alady has. he said it has been going on since

2008 since fortune here is. don't you think that there would be some benefit to russia expressing its displeasure more forcefully so that we don't have to go there with our troops now and deliver a lot of pain and a lot of damage on the ukrainian people. we also have to, you know, leave with that other, leaving for here, even in your point. but you see the security of a nation. and please, let's understand one thing with them because don't understand that russia is not any other country. the russia has a rich tradition, a very rich history. it has a culture. it is a large moss, with 11 time zones. it has tokens of nuclear weapons. you don't fool around with russia. now the point is, god, as he said, fall leaves of greater expansion already happened. they were trying to lose some orange dilution here, which is what you also mention. and in fact, one of the what is, must have been of the rushes that these people from the don bus area ready. so

they'll actually come inside russia and start creating problems that now 2 months ago, ukraine's military neutrality, which is one of a mosque, was chief goals in the operation, was an absolute non stop for the ukrainian leadership. and now they're open to discussing it. they even put it on paper in terms of the proposals that could be looked into. is that a decision that could be made by ukraine and within the ukraine or g thing, they will still have to run it by washington. i think you see this decision 1st to for what has been made by prisoners zalinski publicly saying that he does not want to be a member of nato, is a, does he and that he has made look, he also has to live in ukraine. he may have become a bit of a little, but you see the amount of refugees, people who have gone over the amount of destruction that has happened to i think that is all his thinking. and he has repeatedly said, or television really is a concrete, the nato countries that look,

i was expecting your help. you guys just took me up the garden, bought that a bundle like a hot potato gutters. precisely what the middle that he still appealing to them for help rather than, you know, making a strategic decision of negotiating directly with the rest and with choice today you see it's a gosh 22 situation. what are, what are the do? because less less be very clear in my assessment president put in is very clear that there are certain red lines which will not be crossed, even if this means a wrecking ukraine. he doesn't want, he asked her, choose as a present between russia and ukraine at the end. exactly. how did it w as in money emissions? what does precisely where it is going, which is why you see know laura vomiting is going on. that that is the reason for doug, so the blame for doug should not be put on, put in it should be put on by the negation at about gleaning with i want to ask as a, as a person of a strategic mind, i'm not trying to flatter you but the,

you know, somebody who is familiar with strategy as, as a discipline. how can russia help ukraine walk away from that red line that has been crossed by various powers? how can russia give ukraine, ah, what it needs and protect its own interests. very simple, you see it's already said that the red line is neutral. he licked zalinski except that yes, neutrality, i mean docs are going on. legged be said crimea, there's no way that the russians will give it is absolutely critical for them. as far as the 2 independent republic logged on bass are concerned, i think they can be consultation. what can be done because of the language problem that are a lot of issues that they can be discussed and certainly don't know little membership . i mean, this is what it is, the thing it's within is a landscape power or the power of fly ukraine as a state to decide on that issue. can they make that decision? yes, they can me because he's already been humiliated by the nato and the americans. do

you think that's acceptable to the americans after they have come face to face with the russian determined as lucy, americans have no choice for america? ukraine is not a court interest. they will not fight for ukraine, but the russians will fight for ukraine. it's the deck, gord, interest, americans know that. americans are just trying to humiliate russia and that's about it. and now they're bouncing on india. also. they're telling the india that you'll stop, but you know, there's a repeatable trade who stop buying oil, what's going on? and what do you think i will be the indian act on that? do you think there will be intimidated by the owner? goes loosely because this is our national interest. there are so many things we get from russia. let me list for, for you. what we get from russia is, 1st of all, the, the military equipment, the technology was nobody else will give us the russians give us. then number 3,

the out of bristol, china, you will see this are i see that i share india china. this format i, in my estimation, it will strengthen further. they get this from their, from russia and with russia. we hover comfort. and in any case, that is a great possibility today of a repeatable trade. and we want that there's also great possibility, a huge niche in the russian market because of all the western companies living. and there are lots of promises there. so i see, i see honestly 2 things to happen. first of all, india certainly is under a lot of pressure. why it is under pressure in my estimation is because when you are a huge learned mos lake subcontinent like india, you're in a small country. you cannot stand on 2 stools, you have to decide that you have to have self sufficient foreign policy as well. so therefore, therefore, i think your to be a disaster. if after having learned and observed you crave in the us still tries to

go when site gord and price to be very close to the americans under the against americans at all. i mean, either it is like they, they need to leave and let leave, which is not the problem is what the americans don't understand. the dead idea of liberal values, democracy, human rights. it's not acceptable to so many countries. there are civilizational countries like china, like russia. yeah. many of flowers in the world that should be allowed to blue currently. exactly. this is something the americans look are discerned, i only have time for one more question. and i want to come back to what we already discussed before this change in the, and in the global perception of security, national interests and what countries may take in order to do that. ah, it's clear that china and india have to share the content just like russia and ukraine have to share that geography. do you think they will be perhaps their

reconsideration, both in beijing and in new delhi about how they can do that. given that i think the, the quality of the american promises and what america would do supposedly, for its allies, has been put on quite vividly on display in the recent events in ukraine. belushi in my estimation after the ukrainian graces on what is going on there. and what we have seen of the americans dead that the americans will not come to fight, you'll war. so it should be really clear doing dins that their foreign policy should be based on geography. the geography is critical for a foreign policy, and therefore it is important that we have corporation with china. this is precisely why wong, he wasn't endowed. he simply, he came there to see that. all right, we have a problem on the border issue, but let us also look id or we're all a relationship, which of course the moody gum does not accepted so far. but i just hope mister

soggy level. what is also dead in the leader? no. perhaps some more, you know, wisdom is sort of shared and they come to the decision that he is. india basically has to live where it is. and where it is is where i show is and where china is and where pakistan is. absolutely and in some way it also. 2 i think our d prioritize of security is the only concerned because i did i up until this point, we only thought about security as a paramount issue. but the more inclusive framework allows there to be for economy, for, you know, culture. mercedes will mutual respect in some way, indiana should also reconsider to, to see in off not joining built a lot initiative should reconsider how we can cooperate with china. this is the way i see it because this border issue is not gonna go away and hardy. it can escalate

. and that is not something anybody wants. okay, well, we have to leave it there. it's been great pleasure for me to talk to thank you very much. thank you so much. thank you. thank you for watching called to see you again next week on wells apart. ah ah, i bought them with, with you or is with you. i'm with

l look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order is a conflict with the 1st law show your identification, we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point obviously is to great trust, rather than fear a very job with artificial intelligence. real summoning with a robot must protect its own existence with

a place on your conscience, the basis accusations against the russian troops as a candidate to place to end the war in dumbass. however, these hopes failed to come true that the message to the ukrainian president from russia's ambassador to the un security council meeting on tuesday. the session was dominated by the disturbing footage, allegedly showing bodies of civilians in the streets of the ukrainian city of butcher which moscow views as a provocation against the russian. ah, also ahead we hear from a former officer in the ukrainian security services explains the potential motivation of those behind what he called staging inclusion. the task here had several goals cement to target various audiences take, for example, the population of ukraine can.