so one security architecture is the asia as 6 security architecture, which has been conceived by china, fully backed by russia. as this is pivoted on the built and road initiative, which russia supports. the 2nd architecture is the endo pacific architecture, which is america lift. it is led by the americans. there's a big difference between the 2. and the big difference is that the bacon load initiative, it is structured at all. and if i may use once in days, it is of old shared prosperity and cooperative security. i mean, it's a subject doctors liggett of google energy. we can actually narrow it down to one similar assist. the other thing, whether there is one beneficiary of old, the world, or whether they can be meaning grace at deriving the benefit from living together on this. right? right. so now coming to the american teen america does not have any answer to

debate to lord initiative. a medical always think saddam's of deterrence and the corner school of the dungeons, his defense not to day, the american military fees that they are not really up to the levels. and therefore under the by did administration a new point. suppose the board, instead of calling it deterrence, now they call it integrated it others, which basically means that the allies and the partners barclays, india. they will also have ruled, having said this, what america has been able to do with the da's office of present gum in the movie government. we are not an ally. we are not nimbly p alliance with the americans. yet, the government has st. ford foundation military agreements with the americans, which basically means that we can do advance validity exercises with them,

as well as with other party. exactly, exactly. so this whole idea of ford. when you go cafe e should need to as far as long as he's concerned, who's a state counselor of china, the foreign minister. he has called it this, an issue natal. it has 3 confidence. competent one is the court for the other 4 nations, your america, japan, australia, australia, and india. lucy, all the 3 are military alliances. they are military alliance with america. india is the outsider. but yet, india has gone and signed the foundation agreements with the so it is part of their comeback maneuvers, but it still keeps answer options fairly open. do i understand you correctly that essentially the difference between these 2 are security architecture models is whether ah, you only one country with the help of its allies, gatzo in security needs mat, according to its own, very strict, our desires,

or whether it is not only about security as in the 2nd mono, but also about economic economy and prosperity and actually creating a secure environment that also allows you to leave and let leave. this is precisely what the baseline road initiative does. use heat now coming to. so there are 3 elements, and this is shown little did the chinese stock off. and they said, this is the biggest rectal them. one is the chord. second is the arcus, the somebody which was signed up between australia, u. k and use that is the august somebody. and the 3rd is the 5 eyes intelligence. so this is what wong equals the ation nato. basically, the whole concept here is, in addition to integrated deterrence, which is the partnership of the military us military. when the allies under

partners like india, they basically wanted a rule for natal. can i ask you because once you i, when you figure out how you're going to protect something, you need to figure out what is that you are protecting. yeah. in these vision of security in the, as you call it, in the pacific security with essentially the de americans in the lead everybody else and shipping in. but the americans making their own decisions according to their own vision of the world. what is it that, that, that security model is protecting? they are basically, they say be want to protect the ceilings of communication from western pacific to india and ocean vision. but what they are trying to do is sort of put pressure on the p l in navy, which has the maritime silk road. going along the ceilings of traditional communications. you see they want to basically put pressure on their trade. they

want to put pressure on the chill poise, the 3 big chill points. one is st of malika, st of homo's, which is on the other extreme. and then you have bulk of mon deep. so these are the teacher points as far as there is a way of protecting, ultimately the american dominance, right? precisely eminence of the way to land constraining the chinese many times in good old, which is a complement of the beta road initiative. that is precisely what they are doing in america is a buckland. ok, i can understand why americans with one that did, even though i think that rationale could also be a question. but what are the partners deriving from that? in addition to just simply giving americans the money to fulfill their own goals. so you see the whole idea is that america is still the super part, which it is not my concept of thinking is that today it has a competitor in china. but the whole thing is that american dominance should remain

in the asia pacific region. so therefore, these parking lot shipping in because they have a allies, why it is going, is for a different reason altogether. india's reason is, india believes that it can balance military part of china by being close to the americans. i hope we can come back to this issue after we discussed something that i began with, which is the conflict in ukraine. i heard you say that there is a difference between a warrant and the military operation. and i think that is a very surprising idea to many of the europeans who somehow managed to believe that there is no military power in the use of military power in the world, even though that's been going on for the last 30 years. so what is the difference between a military operation and a war? so it's a huge difference when we talk of war, what is coming into plays all the domains of war to be activated to did that or

something like 5 or 6 domains or 4. then you, then you proud it is what you want to do, you build that whole plan. for example, if russia was to go to war to model with any country, i would assume there will 1st of all trying to attract the electromagnetic spectrum . they will try and finish the communications. water is basically a planning with all the capabilities that you have. the onset is all the capabilities you have. what i understand that a sions are doing and ukraine is the out of wording back a lot of capabilities for natal. just in case little comes in and what they're trying to do is limited. this is precisely what president fulton said that we are doing special military operations. so it is not a classic war. well, and according to present, which and the goal of this military operation is to take control or suppress

ukraine's military capabilities and limit the influence of certain far right groups that have a undue influence on both on the governmental processes that are being used as proxy forces by ukranian government, as well as by outside forces. but ah, apart from that, russia is not interested in taking ukrainian sovereign to, for example, or ruling ukraine re incorporating ukraine in c, like some for more of a new soviet union. but despite these limited focus, i heard you say that this military operation managed to undermine or damage native credibility. so there is a wider dimension. what does it mean practically? and do you think nater, even care is about credibility? what is a what is needed? credibility in practical terms. let's start with what is nato's credibility and then we'll go how it is damaged. credibility is ideally, natal should have finished with the war, subject it no overt, no,

it says that we are defensive organization. they are not. well, we live there, ways of x day extension solving of explosion. there hubbard, you see starting from the clinton administration, they've done that. so when you are increasing your area, often fluids then certainly in order defensive organization. no. so basically what the americans were trying is to nato 2 things. one is to keep strengthening the draws it lock, big buck to ship. that is important for them that the cool water is over. but we should have a fun horn with a grand central arctic partnership. and the 2nd was that if natal could have a rule in the asia pacific, there were also looking at dug. no. what has happened during these ukrainian special military operations is i believe their credibility has gone down tremendously. white has gone down, is because the us, they were supposed to deter russia. and they got detoured by russia. when president

bush then said that if any fly zones is created, that you'll see doc means, it will not be tolerated on if any, a crock. a with arms and ammunition takes off from any place, and comes into the ukranian territory. i will take it that that country is part of the war. so little has done nothing. so these smaller countries in the isha this week, which will honestly do not want militarization. they do not want. you can ask the us young people as he and states, nobody wants militarization but the americans were hell bent. in fact, in june of 2021 needle in the conference was suggesting that they should have a larger role in the asia pacific. so i think now they'll be lot of pressure pushback from the r c on states that look, the lord warned these people here. so the credibility is gone down. oh, okay, mr. hatch hani, we have to take a short break right now. we will be back in just

a few moments stationed sh ah ah mm

ah, head 03 i spoke with her. what are your thousands of people still live in small towns and villages that have become the new frontline charts that require that they call this area the gray zone? ah yeah, i don't like to talk to really early found the rock was pretty new. it that was only about a you had to come with the village olivia, they'll do so i won't know why it was funny because i similarly wasn't done more than a year or the show berella. i school and wish her school australia lennox sandra, who will be a little more. she'll let us that. she made us feel pleasure with that. what does

that? that'll hit somebody with buddy alicia alicia before he moisten. cool here scott, your party. grow your favorite them with. i just didn't think we're, why do we have finished a visit with nissan? and jim, and i got it, and you should be ah ah, mm hm . well, come back to was a partner with providence, a henney, a former engine army officer, and the editor of force, and use magazine. mr. standing before the break, we were talking about the fact that the doctrine of nato and the american security

of doctrine is largely based on deterrence. and which is essentially an idea that any country will be able to take any insult from the americans. because the fear of the american response would be larger, and as he sat with russia and ukraine, it didn't work. and you also mentioned that other countries are watching, but do you think they're just watching or do you think the that practical stop the way they conduct their foreign policy or security policy may change as a result of what they are observing in this wider clash between russia and native because there is some, some fight on the ground, but there is also a much bigger unseen clash between these giants happening. so you see my assessment is that the credibility of chinese has gone up in the region.

why is he that is because the french president, the jumbling jossla even for, has been by then they all have been gone. troubleshooting would, she's big. but she keeping this doing precisely what he believes. and he believes that the security of phoenician is absolutely important. so he's sticking with the russians. no. so what will happen here in the shop is fake, is because the credibility has gone up and see for the chinese ward is always the last option. chinese be even cognitive defeat of the enemy. a cognitive confrontation of the enemy. so basically what they are pushing forward is prosperity. and at the same time, if something happens, they basically believe in what we call the grizzled operations. we keep working in those operations at the same time, build up deterrence,

which keeps the americans at b, which is precisely what they've done in thigh, what, what they've done in south china sea. so everybody's playing their own to turns game. i know for a fact that the art of war, that famous work of religion military genius was studied by the k g, b officer usa in soviet time. so i'm pretty sure that the russian leadership is influenced by this idea. but at the same time, i'm, as we mentioned before, there have been several waves of nato expansion. and while russia expressed its displeasure, it never really put it. it's feet down. why do you think the russians have waited for so long and wasn't in precisely because of this patients when they called strategic patients that they had to take the military matters right now, which is, i think you would agree the worst possible option. so you see a, 1st of all, this is nothing sudden of older. there's nothing southern about it. why is he that is, please recall in the 2008 need tube,

which artist summit that is the dame when the americans decided to put their anti ballistic messiah messiah system in poland. i'm. this is the time when officially ukraine applied for natal membership. and this is the time for the 1st time president with it who had kept quiet right from 1000 to became president. i think 2008 keaton god mention. i mean, he was not offensive at all. he's not looking for greater russia dawn. he said that this is unacceptable. georgia and you could end is completely unacceptable. anything coming here? now, if you keep trying to bring the orange of lucian, there. you see, since 2021 ukraine has been going exercises. the are embittered in the come on in control of the needle structure. i mean, this was going on and everybody knew alady has. he said it has been going on since 2008 since fortune here is. don't you think that there would be some benefit to

russia expressing its displeasure more forcefully so that we don't have to go there with our troops now and deliver a lot of pain and a lot of damage on the ukrainian people. we also have to, you know, leave with that other really been for he a point, but you see the security of a nation. and please, let's the stand one thing with them because don't understand that russia is not any other country. the russia has a rich tradition, a very rich history. it has a culture. it is a land moss, with 11 time zones. it has thousands of nuclear weapons. you don't fool around with russia. now the point is that as he said, fall leaves of greater expansion already happened. they were trying to lose some orange dilution here, which is what you also mentioned. and in fact, one of the what is, must have been on the rushes that these people from the don bus area very soon

they'll actually come inside russia and start creating problems that now 2 months ago, ukraine's military neutrality, which is one of mosque, was keep goals and the operation was an absolute non, sorry for the ukrainian leadership. and now they're open to discussing it. they even put it on paper in terms of the proposals that could be looked into. is that the decision that could be made by ukraine and within the ukraine or g thing, they will still have to run it by washington. i think you see this decision 1st to for what has been made by prisoners zalinski publicly saying that he does not want to be a member of nato, is a, does he and that he has made look, he also has to live in ukraine. he may have become a bit of a little, but you see the amount of refugees, people who have gone out the amount of destruction that has happened to i think that is all his thinking. and he has repeatedly said, or television really is a concrete, the nato countries that look,

i was expecting your help. you guys just took me up the garden, bought that a bundle. we like a hot potato gutters. precisely would be a little that he still appealing to them for help rather than, you know, making a strategic decision of negotiating directly with the rest and good choice today. you see it's a gosh 22 situation photo. what are the do? because less less be very clear in my assessment president put in is very clear that there are certain red lines which will not be crossed, even if this means a wrecking ukraine. he doesn't want to think, asked her, choose as a present between russia and ukraine at the end. exactly. how did it w as in money emissions? what does precisely where it is going, which is why you see no lot of bombing is going on. that that is the reason for that. so the blame for that should not be put on put in it should be put on by the negation at about gleaning. but i want to ask as a, as a person of a strategic mind, i'm not trying to flatter you, but you know,

somebody who is familiar with strategy as, as a discipline. how can russia help ukraine walk away from that red line that has been crossed by various powers? how can russia give ukraine, ah, what it needs and protect its own interests? very simple. you see, it's already said that a red line is neutral, pretty licked zalinski, except that, yes, neutrality, i mean docs i'm going on legged be said crimea, there's no way that the russians will give it is absolutely critical for them. as far as the 2 independent republican don barza concern, i think they can be consultation. what can be done because of the language problem that are a lot of issues that they can be discussed and certainly don't know little membership . i mean, this is what it is, the thing it's within is a landscape power or the power of fly ukraine as a state to decide on that issue. can they make that decision? yes, they can me because he's already been humiliated by the nato and the americans. do

you think that's acceptable to the americans after they have come face to face with the russian determined as lucy, americans have no choice for america? ukraine is not accord, interest. they will not fight for ukraine, but the russians will fight for ukraine. it's the deck, gord, interest, americans know that. americans are just trying to humiliate russia and that's about it. and now they're bouncing on india. also. they're telling the indian that you'll stop, but you know, there's a little bit of trade who stop buying oil. what's going on? and what do you think i will be the indian act on that? do you think there will be intimidated by the owner? those uses because this is our national interest. there are so many things we get from russia. let me list for, for you. what we get from russia is, 1st of all, the, the military equipment, the technology was nobody else will give us the russians give us. then number 3,

the out of bristol, china, you will see this are i see that i share india china. this format mine my estimation. it will strengthen further. they get this from their, from russia and with russia. we hover comfort. and in any case, that is a great possibility today of a repeatable trade. and we want that there's also great possibility, a huge nation, the russian market because of all the western companies living. and there are lots of promises there. so i see, i see honestly, 2 things to happen. first of all, india certainly is under a lot of pressure. why it is under pressure in my estimation is because when you are a huge learn mosley subcontinent, like india, you know, in a small country, you cannot stand on 2 stools. you have to decide, but whether you have to have self sufficient foreign policy as well. so therefore, therefore, i think you to be a disaster. if after having learned and observed you crave in the us,

still tries to go when site gord and price to be very close to the americans under the against americans at all. i mean, either it is like they, they need to leave and let leave, which is not the problem is what the americans don't understand. the dead idea of liberal values, democracy, human rights. it's not acceptable to so many countries. there are civilizational countries like china, like russia. yeah. many of flowers in the world that should be allowed to blue currently. exactly. this is something the americans look are discerned, i only have time for one more question. and i want to come back to what we already discussed before. this change in the and in the global perception of security, national interests and what countries may take in order to do that. ah, it's clear that china and india have to share the content just like russia and ukraine have to share the geography. do you think they will be perhaps their

reconsideration, both in beijing and in new delhi about how they can do that. given that i think the, the quality of the american promises and what america would do supposedly, for its allies, has been put on quite vividly on display in the recent events in the ukraine. belushi in my estimation, after the ukrainian graces on what is going on there and what we have seen of the americans there that the americans will not come to fight. you'll war. so it should be really clear doing dins that day. foreign policy should be based on geography. the geography is critical for a foreign policy, and therefore it is important that we have corporation with china. this is precisely why wong he was in india recently. he came there to see that all right, we have a problem on the border issue, but let us also look id or we're all a relationship, which of course, the moody gum does not accepted so far. but i just hope mister soggy level. what is

also dead in the leader? no, but hops. some more, you know, wisdom is sort of shared and they come to the decision that he is. india basically has to live where it is and read it is, is where i show is and where china is and where pakistan is. absolutely and in some way it also. 2 i think our d prioritize is security is the only concerned because at the up until this point, we only thought about security as a paramount issue. but the more inclusive framework allows there to be, for economy, for, you know, culture staging, mutual respect in some way, indiana should also be considered and to see in off nor joining beltran road initiative should reconsider how we can cooperate with china. this is the way i see it because this board asia was not gonna go very naughty. it can escalate. and that

is not something anybody wants. okay, well, we have to leave it there. it's been great pleasure for me to talk to you. thank you very much. thank you so much. thank you and thank you for watching called to see you again next week on wells apart. ah ah, i spoke with

madison both, both the models you need to do both got nelson news deal with a, a guy nobody. a lot of them bought a nissan levy and he's not because tanya normally with the rest, the personal number he ended up with

a russian state will never be on the north lansky with anyone else with rural ban in the european union, the kremlin machine, the state on crush up to date and r t sport mckibbin our video agency, roughly all band on youtube. this is chris with john. mm

hm. and you called was signed on february the 12th 2015. it was meant to end military conflicts in ukraine between government forces and on bass militia groups . the agreement stipulated that both sides would withdraw heavy weapons to an equal distance from the contact line. this left several 100 settlements trapped between opposing forces. local civilians became unwitting witnesses to and victims off the continuing civil war. thousands of people still live in small towns and villages that have become the new front line. they call this area the greys owner who.