we choose to look for common ground. oh, i ah hello and welcome to cross top were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. europe finds itself in a quandary is determined to punish russia for its military operation and ukraine. it's favored policy. instrument is of course, sanctions of all sorts, but alas, it's not so simple. sanctions and gender counter sanctions. this translates into economic pain. for europe, ah,

crossing europe's fate. i'm joined by my guess i'd rail can santa in london. he is founder of a k consulting and a foreign affairs analyst in paris. we have rachel mars than she is a political columnist and coast of unpredicted with rachel marston. and in prague we crossed to brad blankenship. he is a columnist at c g t n, a freelance reporter fresh and why? as well as an rti contributor or a crosswalk rules and a fact that means he can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate, rachel, let me go to you 1st and paris. one of my favorite phrases over the years has been the law of unintended consequences. now, with the fervor of almost like a crusade, europe's intend to punish russia for its operations in ukraine are beginning to serve counterproductive. ends here. i mean, particularly in the area of energy and as much as nato and the u. e. you want to talk about unity, the more they talk about sanctions, the less unity there is. go ahead. rachel? yeah, what's interesting is the french president in missouri. my whole face is real in

the next few days. at least the 1st round of the campaign and he's in a tight race right now against and then from the far right. and he's facing a real problem because he flattered, said several times that nato is brain dead that need. and you mentioned that you cannot just focus on russia and yeah, absolutely nothing, not only to re orient things in that sense, but also to stop the product, the more, which is essentially what we're seeing right now when you create it, nato versus russia, using ukraine as possible and even then mac home was doing a lot of shuttle diplomacy between moscow in the us fire to all of this popping off in february. yep. and only really had to do was just say friends isn't getting involved in this. we're not sending ukraine. we're not getting involved in this.

hey, if you are, has a problem with russia. it's for you guys to deal with by you think that it probably would be actually in this situation. and then what he's doing now is trying to play both sides of court from the middle as you'd like to say. he's saying on one side, look, i'm trying to stay in the position for europe, the best for europe, the best for the people in france and the same time saying, well, look, we're the united states. we're with nato. when we're united way should have done is adopted, the position that he sees himself as representing although he doesn't. and that is the position of former french president shuffled the gun general from world war 2, who basically pulled france out of needle command. and the french stayed outside of nieto, right? hill. nicholas are cozy in. well, you know, great, great. so great. the reason why micron didn't do it because he has no courage.

that's his problem. ok. he can talk all he want, but he didn't have any great. i'm glad, glad rachel brought this up because i was going to go to this here. let me go to adrian this here. micron defends dialogue with russia. continuing talks with moscow can build quote, a new architecture of peas. well, where were you in december, january, and february, when, when, when the russians were talking about a new architecture for of security in europe, a girl? this is laughable. history is going to laugh at this man. adrian, go ahead in law. i'm not quite sure the history will laugh at this if we understand how the politics in europe are governors, we need to bear in mind that a dis, politicians hold no hold, no power when it comes to the internal decisions within the european politics are real decision makers are in washington d. c, and this has been said already 1927 by a famous french poet po valerie,

that. busy europe is currently governed by the united states and these, these, these are the effects of being covered and, you know, being not sovereign entity. so obviously i'm, i'm on my home is trying to portray and so as a war time leader. and he's trying to get the best of both worlds as you know, playing as a and mediator between the west and, and, and president, what he may put in that are the same times. he's contradicting his own internal and foreign policy by leaning towards being instead of having a europe european security autonomy, i would say i would call it a european security dependence on the united states. and what i would like to say is that it's quite a significant to bear in mind that what is happening in europe is

a repercussion of, of, of the united states strategy to somehow put in place the offshore balance. a strategy here in europe to somehow engage russia in fighting, or we can call it a military mission to denials of fi now ukraine. but at the same time, on tuesday, for the executive oath of nato just sultan book set up and now, and nato is looking towards asia in order to, um, you know, have a closer ties in, with, with, with asian partners. so in my understanding is that they are trying to offshore balance the power that is russia here in europe. while at the same time, united states can concentrate off somehow complaining, as they say, a china in, in asia. but it is a self defeating

a strategy because you can't, you know, fight to main eurasian powers of the same time we shall see. but in my opinion, it, this will lead to a massive tragedy yet. well, in the way i look at it, brad number one, since we've brought up a crown, i hope he's defeated in his presidential reelection bid because he's a coward. and for very reason, reasons said we have already heard here. and number 2, nato should just close shop because it can't keep the peace. all it does is bring war. let's come talk about the law of an unintended consequences. i mean, a year living in europe. i mean, a, do people understand the rep with the repercussions of what's going to happen to the economy when you attack a g 20 country like russia, particularly in the area of energy. and you know, the over dependence on russia? well, they're looking for dependency on, on the, on the u. s. and it's going to be very, very expensive. go ahead, brand. yeah, that's exactly right. i don't think anybody here understands that. i mean,

here in the czech republic, i, what i've noticed to this conflict is, is how much necessarily the, the national identity of the former warsaw pact, countries that are now members of the european union is like, necessarily based on anti russia is which they attached to their socialist pass, and it's almost like these voices were elevated and amplified by the united states after the ball, the berlin wall. and after the revolutions against communism, here in eastern europe to stand against russia and to prop up nato and us lead world order. people are so rabbit in their anti russia isn't here, that they don't realize that their houses are being heated by russian guy. i mean, as i'm sitting here in my apartment now talking to you, i'm in a pretty comfortable environment here. heated by russia. we have a majority of our energy of our liquefied natural natural gas in the czech republic from russia. and to me, this idea that we can de globalize russia, which is the term i'm seeing use more now. this attempt to de globalize,

russia will have an antenna consequences. and what i'm noticing, and also as well, people don't realize that, for example, russia is the largest exporter of mineral, natural mineral, like the food for animal fertilizer, fertilizer, leisure, yeah, right, mineral fertilizer. so we're going to see even more food inflation around the world . the entire african continent is based is it's, we imports from russia. this will be mass starvation in africa. if you know these countries in the west are selling africa, you need to have a response to the war and ukraine. ok, if that happens, everybody in africa is going to start again. it'll be mass destitution, and people don't understand this, that one won't shows about low. hi, brad, it's ago. this was brad left that we should point out to that. you know, iraq is iraq, afghanistan. so i began to send libby as libya. and though that how did that impact western lifestyles? not very much because they're very far away. but this is going to happen in the

heart of europe. this is what people don't understand. rachel, let me go to you. you're very well aware of the concept of ca, cancel, come to cancel culture. now we're doing it to a major country. i mean, in every way, financially, economically, socially, historically, musically, any way you want to do it, this is an amazing exercise of virtue signaling. go ahead, rachel? yeah, well, it is a virtue signaling, but we've been in that kind of logic going back years now. i mean, we fight with the cobra crisis, not get back into all. but i mean, we saw or dealing with respect to that. it was totally disconnected from scientific reality. we're seeing that now. people who probably can't even point to point to ukraine or russia on a map even though you could probably do a lot ends with a dark baby. suddenly they've gone from being health expert online to being the back,

russia and ukraine relation and been paying attention to anything that's been going on a lot of 20 years. i mean, i remember when i was living in toronto, canada back in around 20034. there was a toronto, they international political consultants who approached me. james, political consulting work at the time. and he said, would you be interested in working on ukraine campaign? i said, why would anybody year be interested in working on you created campaign but all right, it was in the work already. there isn't an intent to try to write to kind of, i guess rearrange things or to, to move ukraine into the north american column. and that's already been underway for for decades now. so i mean, this is not a new issue, but yet people have an opinion, a very strong opinion about and even though to them, it's just something that, that just happened like magic for no reason. on february 24th

and yeah, so, so camera culture is really is really nothing new. i mean i had a independent show that was licensed to make friends. and for 6 years, i did that show and then suddenly from one day to the next, it's gone because the european union just unilaterally, without going through any regulatory body in the individual members, please raise. hi rachel. i have to jump in here, way to get what we have to go to a short break in europe at the right. the due process of law seems to be disappearing. we're going to go to a short break that to that short break. we'll continue our discussion on europe's fate state with our team. ah, i look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people.

a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order is a conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence. and the point obviously, is to create trust rather than fear a job with artificial intelligence. real summoning with a robot must protect its own existence with and united states is a news and tax on other countries. economic sanctions are,

are often just the beginning. another thing you like to do is place some military pressure on the countries that you're talking about and there has to be an effort to demonize that country and the leader of that country. we have a responsibility for the whole world. and we need to make rules for the rest because without out there we can do a welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter a bell to remind you we're discuss in the fate of europe. the

let's go back to a drill in london. rachel brought up a very good point at the end of the 1st part of the program. so anyway, tell me in rough terms here, when you're living in london, so what did people actually know about ukraine before february 24th. and what did they know about it? now? go ahead. well, they know the same on so they were moving in 2014 or 2013. i have to, you know, you have to bear in mind that in 2014 i went to, i will stand by the house of lords to, to do the report. and also in 2015, i published a report on the functions on russia, where we clearly stated in the report that this functioning of prussia will backfire because functions are not a free meal. and also it will accelerate a russia shifting towards global south all to with east. it's already

in 2015 already. i had a discussions with briggs countries and especially with china de sign a significant deal concerning gas. and this was perceived by, by research as contributing to the report or mentioning to a threat to, to the west. but no one has listened to that, although it was published by the center for the policy studies and came back. it was the cause of the house of lords, but people were ridiculous that because people are still seeing russia through the western lances, they perceive russia as a country i'm capable to, to stand on its own. and the very fact that russia is perceived by, by the western, as, as, you know, standing on its own and, and as from a mansion to somehow the west will be able to the couple of russia from the

world. it's only true western, particularly they, they see or perceive, well as the west. they don't see the world as india, south africa, brazil, and china. they don't comprehend the fact that russia has a lot of friends around the world, and the spence happened to be very powerful and emerging poets. while in europe we, the europe is a decadent country. we have a problem with a population. people in countries are the populated, especially italy. we dependent heavily on russia and on the united states where the united states promise quite written. the true jo biden's lips that they will somehow sufis the gas limits or gust

reduced by seizing transpose of gods from russia. but people were paying close attention and who on the stand, the political economy of energy know that this is impossible, even because i really just said you will be unable to find another one of the piece for that. what we've seen here is seizing of yachts. i suppose that makes europe safer. place on these fields, when without any kind of due process here. you know, i guess these are western standards that the world needs to really. i mean, europe was heavily hit by the love downs and approve the panoramic. and now true seizing and peers hearing, especially u. k. they are trying to make up the numbers so they are feeling well, i mean, but let me, let me go to brad here. let me go to brad here in prague. mean, you know, all this virtue signaling, i mean, how does it actually help the average citizen to be i'm really mystified by this. i'm glad that the locked downs were mentioned. i mean, we have a lot of ican nomic,

dislocation. now we have even more here, and the people that spout off about it the most are the elite and they don't suffer at all from these things at all. okay. they are more disconnected from their, their citizens and never before go ahead. broad the thread. i think that, of course, the sanctions against russia are just going to compound all the inflationary pressures right now that are seeing the greatest assertion, inflation, and 5060 years that it's disproportionately hurting average people. and you hear so much from people like joe biden or other western leaders that oh well we have the courage we're willing. we're able to, to make this sacrifice. well, who are they talking about? when i'm talking about themselves, are they talking about the billionaires that funder campaign? these people are completely insulated from all the economic damage that the sanctions are bringing. average people will suffer. as i mentioned with the example of natural gas here in europe. if they decide to unplug natural gas in europe, that will be absolutely devastating. people's rents going to go up. utilities will

go up. probably 2 or 3 times. i mean, it will be ridiculous in the idea that the american can substitute russian national liquefied natural gas is absurd. and the whole thing about globalization, it's about reducing, reducing friction. that is the barriers in people, services, and goods, and adding just this giant, essentially a wall between russia and europe, which is an extra part of europe politically, economically. and then saying ok, we're going to do more business with this country cards atlantic. this is, this is counter logical to the idea of globalization itself, and i just don't see that it can be done and impossible globalize rachel rachel, you live in paris? so i mean, i'm sure the average per reason is, is just waiting with baited breath for refugees. from ukraine to come or correct me if i'm wrong. i just heard today that apparently spaces in daycares will be free of charge for ukrainian refugees. and suddenly,

there is a lot of french people who are turned very right away as result of measures like that, that they can't understand when we're offering homes, as generous as it is for the state to do that, to refugees. when there are french people living in the street, it's hard to explain to french people why that is the case. and one thing that is really interesting that i'm noticing, i don't know anybody else is, has ascertain this as well. but there seems to be a narrative coming from the top down from elite within each country. they all seem to be seeing from the same hymn book on this issue. and that is that under the pretext of this conflict, it is necessary mandatory for the average citizen of europe and perhaps other western countries to pay the same, but expect much less. yeah. and that goes to the energy issue. and i

think, i don't like where this is going, i don't what condition in us to accept switches increasingly left for the same price and who, when they do? well. rachel, rachel, i like to say to all of you, but it's all worth it because it's ukraine's democracy. i drill. does anybody in europe have a clue about what the state of democracy is in in ukraine? i do. i've been watching it closely for years. there isn't much there, but we're told otherwise. go ahead in london. this is about, this is about the ideology. people don't, don't understand until this high prices will not hit them and they will not be able to, to pay for the artillery bills. they will not be able to afford the fancy attorney to fancy restaurants and eat before that they used to like so obviously as rachel, write me said this is the tax being put on the average citizens of you know,

for they are paying this back for you credit for you don't really and truly this will have a massive shift within the societies in the west. the people who are generally speaking liberal progressive, they will turn radical and, and, and right wing. because these are the repercussions of the. busy liberal policies and some people are just, you know, fed up with the thing that the, so far as i mentioned during the panoramic that you know livelihoods but, you know, significantly diminished. and now we are having this wall which could have been prevented in the 1st place if, if someone would really strike the deal with russia in good faith regarding the means agreements and telling the. busy busy which is now known to everyone. president julia said him so they told him that ukraine

will not be admitted to nato buck in the public. they will still, you know, push this and rated. there's a certain possibility of ukraine being admitted. so some is just clearly making a very big chunk out of a huge populations in the west, especially here in europe. so it will backfire, it will backfire? well, it is, it's back finding already, you know, written bread. and this all explains, this whole program explains the fact that why london and the u. s. is not pushing for some kind of negotiated end to this conflict. they actually want to keep it going on for all the reasons that all 3 of you have said on this program. go ahead brad. well, that's right. i mean, 1st of all there's, there's internal mechanisms we know in place like the military industrial complex. the fact that most members of congress are invested in that the keep the, with the war drums beating to keep it all going. and also benefits the united states politically because it creates more dependence on the united states, both for, you know, natural resources,

but also other economic things where russia could get cut outlet. but i also, i just want to say here that, you know, i wouldn't, i guess we're, we're talking about about, you know, people coming in excepting refugees from ukraine with open arms. i give it here in the czech republic. i give it like 6 months. i get it 6 months between oh, we love ukrainians today or the some of the earth again because before the war, that's how they were treated here. they were treated a 2nd class citizens and that will happen again very soon. well, brad, you know, i'm glad someone else said it so i can say it now. i lived in poland for 10 years. the sentiment is pretty much the same there. okay. i'm sorry. okay. that's why this is all such a fiction. okay. rachel, we're rapidly running out of time here. what comes next? i mean, what, what, how is anything the west helping ukraine? because i've said ever since the, the co in 2014, the more the west helps ukraine. the more the smaller ukraine gets. go ahead. rachel? well,

we'll see what the colorant says of people living in the west and granted there is a buffer on the atlantic ocean to prevent the r in everybody over there from feeling the pinch like we are here in europe. but we'll see how hard your real all right, i have to germany. we're almost out of time. we're almost out of time if you will give me, give me 15 seconds. go ahead. jump in. ah, well, ok. as rachel was saying, but i couldn't hear very well, but yes, i think that the people will not be tolerant. i mean, the, and now we are seeing, you know, this enters yes them, because this is a new thing, you know, as same as my squaring and, you know, i recovered jobs, but all of a sudden, a same as you've said about poland. i mean about poland, people will soon realize that this is unfair and. busy once they're a lot of, you know, they did the increase in payments for, for the utility bills and they, alex, life expectancy will i will kick in. they will realize that they've been treated

unfairly because someone from the ukraine is being given something for free. and you are supposed to be paying for of them. okay, well, i have a 10 minute wait run out of time. but the law of unintended consequences is definitely in play here. many thanks. and i guess in london, paris in prague, and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c. next time. remember cross i pro ah long when alex in wrong when old fools, just a to see how the steam becomes the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will

decline, we choose to look some common ground. ah needs to come to the russian state. total narrative. i've stayed as i'm phone and the most landscape destination. i'm not getting all sunset for a group in the 55 with this being. okay, so mine is professional speaking. when else with we will van in the european union the kremlin, can you? yep. machine. the state aunt, rush up to date and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency roughly all band to on you to send me to school. the question, did you think it requests with

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ah, [000:00:00;00] a solution here with our team corresponding to oman, coast of visit, a suburb of marble, where federal russian, medical personnel have been assisting the local doctors and made efforts to return to peaceful life in the area. the u. s. has threatened india with significant and long term consequences if it doesn't fall in line against the crumbling, saying it's not in india's best interest to maintain close ties with russia. and in india's neighbor pakistan, the prime minister says the u. s. has orchestrated