bomb, fast forward some 40 years and the same actors, the same powers are as lower, has here again, this time and ukraine, who's president earlier this year, and now he's countries intention to develop yet again, it's nuclear military capability. what the americans look away yet again, if it were to undermine moscow? well, to discuss that and now joined by a sub dirani, former director general of pakistan's into services intelligence. mr. dirani, thank you very much for your time. it's a great honor for me to talk to you. welcome, welcome. so now you were in charge of pakistan's intelligence services. in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, i'm sure you witnessed that follow the so it pull out from afghanistan when he now here. western analysts comparing the current operation, the current russian operation ukraine to you know, the previous one in afghanistan,

and some of them, i think, predicting the consequences will be the same that russia will be buried as a state in the ukraine. what are your thoughts? do you think those are accurate predictions? there are many parallels between various situations. but of honda sun and new cream i can think of a couple. anyone coming to a fun is fun. whether the service shows the american sh, our neighborhood. we used to colored shooter euclid leg, stared for one score ukraine, the strict dipped off russia. you called the nero brought people dakota. you load the oh, do satellite dish lou fella brought. but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took a great risk the supporting the resistance agrees to super bush trowbridge unit that america could be years in case of you could, and this was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years we have seen 2014 was the

1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane, understandably, if with this nettle, the note was next to us. it was bad enough that it does come that far, but this is now the work. now, if it happened, suddenly, you couldn't, didn't become a member of nato. then i contradict the guide because because then it is a member of the alliance, and this inter, any, as far as mazda is concerned, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into ukraine . now, pakistan, if i remember back then i, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but the, you know, the americans, you use it quite extensively for this particular case is just one difference. one could go in ukraine and other natural countries have, as we have seen, cannot physically interview. but if the earth, if he attended summer member,

then i don't think so. tricia could have been rigid. but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about yours security parameters, independent of no control commonwealth independent stage. for example. see a steel for, i mean, these things are creature. so there was a good in, i'll tell you about us too. well, can i actually ask about that? because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly, but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buff resumes on neutral steve is almost in a fraud. they always claim that smaller countries i entitled to their own ride in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case they can afford to talk about it. for example,

if you have a personalized leg now to invest in europe, this seems good. the you don't need, let's see, the so called securities on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or buses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. nowadays, the biggest worry about the refugees about do many to increase is about is not because the water is broken out, was broken actually is it's water next door, sir. and so if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand the relief source, no man learns buffers. what do they mean? so if you don't, you sure. if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like, i think i can tell, don't tell you, but we need it very badly. the neighborhood on the eastern sage kashmir with the problem. amongst many things,

there is one element engaged mirror that is very heavy. here is not only because of people the territory, but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact moscow's in sensitivity to pakistan's security concerns. and it's, i'm about need to have ghana, stan as its own buffer his own against india. that latter your predecessors to, you know, support the more jacqueline against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i don't think there was an opportunity, frankly you, she, hudson before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire. in our case, it became, you know, a buffer against the northern shed, but it also so that other books and there is whenever we were given who was with india, 6571. and i'm a written a book you in a junior officer,

we knew that gobble wants every bogus, certainly sure to warn the east because we, we didn't have to keep any one of the rest because there's interest in boca social security was about and showed to look after it now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal, at a furnace 3rd, cobbled it would become, you know, the so called black borders, because there is a horse trade country. sure. the other said, lake america elected to ship their tape. so that flag protection is also gone. i remember when this happened, when the service came in, i to 79. i was not yet an intelligence, but the thing that was heard about that there was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a nut crick indian. they use told row. and now the soviet and india for a little bit about the risk for that event, that becomes the scenario. you will do whatever you can. but in order to get

yourself out of the jaws of the nat, kreckchar is you put it, or you made a pact with an american's which later led to your participation pakistan's participation in the american led warren terror. which claimed, if i'm not mistaken, some $80000.00 lives and over a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile shoot? this is not the point to some people overlook and always us than what was the option at that time. and said in the 79 and whatever push one period 2 years, and ultimately that border becomes good at least from a foreign fallen military, in this particular case, 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if there was a price we paid, it had to be paid because in this particular with that claim, the rest of the world will that are saying in this particular case,

visually via fun, valuable, and the resistance and bug is done virtually we were all or not, or hardly any one or said will come and see it. now, here is the money here, the purpose. well, some people, me how, but why did something or covertly so 20 years if you have who of which took their t. n a in the process now and can see a finest then, as again, independent america diminished. went away. we all considered that is to be a great success. you can tell them people, i'm, if countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. 20000000. they're still type of price countries paying for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of no colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country or you or are under somebody. so yeah,

because i mean, the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or their free in the west, but i think this station is far more complex than this. yes, i agree issue all really more complex. you snorted deseeno fun to compare people that we are able to resist that we want to go that we will not to become record of understand. for example, usually the so gordon lation will yeah. one population there. walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time and now with the american they have and they are very unhappy that the of back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money now for deliver dear. these people are in trouble, so they will curse, the americans brought us more than the more than anyone else. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. no, we do get

a complete national consensus. this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i mean the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans because i think they and the ukrainian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it security to neither or thought that it outdoors, that security geneva, in the americans, they expect the west to come to their defenses, and now they are being left one on one with the might of the, of the russian army. do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a mystery. cooperated with the americans? yes. when the show ritual there do cooperated of the snake game 2 years later. the list and have started with my job been and bikers any i say, my british as a similar lead case of her son, you may have given you some sort of a verbal insurance about certain things deep. don't revert,

not cooperating with the medical people. and then you work it and they should double game and front work. well, it was a compulsion. we had to do something so that the italian mand remain viable, that the but they will throw them out to that is how these games are played. no country plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her, if no good president of few korean thinks that he's been left a ian ray, one can talk about, you know, along over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity he knew what was going to happen, and now you can only get that type of sport or nothing is that the americans did not. you will tell them in dang, if their death took place. if the muscular act you remember,

we locked me. we couldn't treat lake, they could not de la should have money, the cook, you better leave because we're leaving, otherwise you'll be late. so you're saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o choices. look at some of the go speech, sundays, i'm exceptions to this role when the americans were true to their word, for example, that with the israel israel did not set away without american support. that we should know. it would be very powerful, but ultimately the sales strategic debt this in the united states. but is that the only country that there is for you, like except those people who are going to depend that they will go, we have learned it or not. well, after the, when the who 71 war started with or 65 war and 71 war at that time,

the so called a lay sport back and they said we could not, not against it. so you have to look, our frisco dealership is, are there any we have to take a very short break right now? we'll be back in just a few moments statement ah ah,

[000:00:00;00] with mm. welcome back to wells. far as with a son to run a former director general of pakistan, inter services intelligence, mr. dirani. and you wrote recently that can't that any country or any big country would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as was insecurities like beauty in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative depending on many conditions. do you believe

in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security, but relative security? if not for all done at least for let's say, some configuration, some group of of countries in the region. yes, sure. you're right. thank you. what shane, good, there is no such thing as absolute quality there. submit. but depending upon your environment, who are your friends? who are yours? neighbors, you do try to work something. for example, in our case, during this last 20 years, the effort was if the idea is to get the americans out because there be considered to be the mental it, not the indians reached out to iran, mending fences with them because there are some problem. turkey in china, they're always good problems. i'm a beneficiary of, you know, are people at that time g, creating bridges with moscow?

i was there too. so trace, because you all believe that these 45 countries i used to you and call them again will follow that very interesting. common. the commonality of interest will take you somewhere. as long as those common interest will be in america. will there be work on that particular thing for the cooperative before chicago? my still got now there is another configuration in which no renewal, i'm and again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last, for many years, the men rivalry was going to be between china and united sheesh and church. i nice getting friends from all over the place, especially the most important from the chinese. now help question. we are all friends, but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if there are no student centrally share yoshika, celia perky what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also

a certain space. turkey human after it has shut down the production plane. if that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new grid game is so important that we are prepared to fall or to look, but of others, mailer, editors, maybe. so that on that point you can remain together. so this is the only way that i know alliances. i've made some thanks the meal work. very often they will lot because one will say no, because of that we have a lot of new take on rashonna will report full word. stick small little sheet cream . yeah. if they are taken away, so that what, what is it because of that, that we must war. there's a whole abuse me strategy, shalumi take place, some people call it means little work, little certain things happen. and there's no one rich because reaction is so

costly. so hazardous, well, let me ask you about that because america and native strategy are for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence that any country would be, even if they are frustrated, would be too scared by the american. our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess. what do you think this russian operation with me until the power of american deterrence, in terms of other countries defending their national interest? vigilance is, unless it is so called full spectrum at all levels, that girl tru tv, the nuclear, the non conventional, even sub conventional when we see, you know, guerrillas and so on, so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that we have,

unless you have that type of returns. you vulnerable country like canada shoes may have plenty of our work. but everyone knows where the ashley says is read it as well. no, but you only have to say no more dollars, it will all be done and you arms or rules or your then get better. so all those people are vulnerable, so there is no such thing as an absolute. it has like no option. but yes, there are certain cities, the nuclear data, for example, in archie's can only see was from nuclear bracket. it is not reuse, but mere fact that we have it. that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can perfect. it sometimes takes that because of this, the me when become more insecure because of the money that was burger, the server because of some people you know, said countries a layer the lane up against you. so that is the answer that, oh, there will be no come, lead

a absolute do made. did to let you just keep working in this direction. you try to cover your radius legs, and i must under any you've just mentioned, nuclear deterrent and deterrence and her. if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife. and there's been astray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions to of the indian pakistani conflict. and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons which the intentions of which were announced at the munich security conference earlier this year. and to the surprise of many in russia, no one other thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted, that nuclear proliferation is a turbo. is that a stranger? do you think are this comparison bit when you know americans looking away when they

needed pakistanis to all the americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians to be used against the russians. do you think the new creation of ukraine? yeah. took place because of all the assess for the controller was with moscow. so this will probably the condition on the wish border. one of the conditions under which you can and became free to give up as nuclear weapons. under the tudor tickle consumption, that bit of water where both of course, i suppose there would have a little more confidence in the to really to, to defer are there to so that was sure there does what didn't clear a bunch can do in this particular case. workers may have wished that they can not do anything. now they cannot send nuclear weapons because that hasn't delivered they mention no one even in the united states,

will agree with that. but the big factor they do not have to use. that means that, that part of that is gone. if they look at the other way, you can develop nuclear puts they've used to do that. in our case, we had a level of about 10 years at that day. and fact, when the, you know suits, are, you know, the person amendment came the other 2 or 3 years, the old program was already completed the start, know the bill. i mean, they don't start from scratch, they do have some expertise from the soviet union. the scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the, the americans who well we in, nobody knows for sure the, the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but the, you know, we can make some assumptions. they are true true. i agree omit if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would need to complete their program may be less

if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis. the ongoing crisis now fall 5 weeks in a few weeks. and i suppose some sort of a will by take my assessment is that it cannot go on like a lot of the sticks are too high. i want to ask you about the style of for fighting . because if you switch on san an you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating everyone wears, we in rush and i as a worker, respondent and siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east that recall it swiss cheese style when you have opposition areas next to government control layer. specifically, because the russians were objecting to use the, the use of heavy artillery in heavily populated areas which prolong, defied, and it's prolonging the fight right now in the military operation. but you do that specifically to, you know, protect the civilians are, as i don't want you to take sides. but i wanna sort of asked for your advice as

a military as an intelligence. and they're also assume a person who dealt with military matters a lot. how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for, from, i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive and air clear effort to turn the brush again into a pariah and make put in into senseless motor murder. but i think he is more calculated than that, at least in russia as a country to is more considered of human life than usually it's given a credit for. this is the most potent factor, or, you know, with that any country hash and out. israel america's real superiority, motivates you could call the narrative the control the media. you were involved 20 years, you can't go out and you may have suffered badly enough or understand this. she media did the seat as it in certain,

but prowess and credibility. and dick and drum circles around to others. people they can influence in military, we call a psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them. the most potent good boot the best. no one else we heard very, very good. we can't even compare with so so, so, so some of the, you know, campaigns launched against august and from a neighboring country, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a big, very big weakness. but the real strength where the hair, i'm talking about that talked about the other strengths which can be breached. but this one is very difficult because it is included in people's minds. so in that

case they have done it is holy people like me. you know, i don't want to, you know, bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find a very full intensity thing going in one direction, you know, it is, are considered not automatic people. dr. board reporting objectively in tracy journalism was the american way. there are entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this has been darker still. there are some other people who might come to that place, but most of the people will simply buy it off the ship from the mag this but not like americans like to say that perception is reality, understand what they say. but sometimes, you know, reality do manifest itself. i mean, it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct is broken by history itself because it's always stronger than any, you know,

brilliant mind. i can understand that because we suffered from it as the best of our 1st. we cannot put that right. it is right. but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about our strategic dept and the buffers and the ukraine's it is such a bowl. our government that even somewhere like henry kissinger is not a sympathetic for directions or for us or no. or do you and he said, under the circumstances the best solution was to make you can in the bridge between east and west. there's what we have thought of. and some very often lately people in by me are in pakistan. who do believe we do think that somebody has to read for charter for beast. you've come to the conclusion. if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation, a final project that will be the best thing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas,

which no site can afford to lose. and that is where you start bringing disclosing that formula. there are a couple of other things also that he saw a, let's call it the run is formula. we have to live there, but i am greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you. around a little. thank you very much. so it was nice to read and thank you for watching hope to start again next week on. well, the part, ah with mm hm. what we've got to do is identify the threads that we have it, trees, even station, let it be an arms race is an offense, very dramatic development,

only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. and number those constantly growing. i think, you know, which of the problem was to call soon as you speak on the bill in your senior mostly mind the we're, we're sure we're banding all imports of russian oil and gas news. i know they plenty of those with info. let me know when you have regarding joe biden, imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there's

your boomerang with if anybody's been trapped in an elevator, 20 minutes can be pretty long time right and the load trapped in an elevator for 20 minutes. not knowing what's going to happen, not knowing where you are. suits of sensory deprivation. i think with that if your life at 20 visit about an hour, not at all. yeah, the intercom is nothing i was trying to get you out. i was keeping you in is your communication ah, that's existence ah