skinny as we have seen in 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane. understandably, if with this nettle, the note was next door's, it was bad enough that it does come that far, but this is now the work. now if it happened, suddenly you couldn't, didn't become a member of nato. then i contradict the guide because because then it is a member of the alliance. and this inter, any, as far as mosque is concerned, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into ukraine . now, pakistan, if i remember a bag and i, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for now is for kisses. just one to french. one good, good ukraine and other notebook entries have as we have seen, cannot physically interview. but if the earth, if it was i'm a member,

then i don't think her treasure could have elated. but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about yours security parameters, independent of no concern commonwealth, independent states photograph, but see a stool for, i mean, these things are creature so that you should go in. i'll tell you about as to well, can i actually ask about that? because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly, but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buffer zone neutral steve is almost in a fraud. they always claim that smaller countries i entitled to their own ride in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case they can afford to talk about it. for example,

if you have above all alone leg now to invest in europe, this seems good. they don't need, let's see, the so called securities on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or busses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. nowadays, the biggest worry about the refugees, about humanity. grace is about is not because the water is broken out, was broken out. so many years is water. next door, sir, and sure if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand relief source, no man learns buffers. what do they mean? so if you don't to you sure. if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like, i think i can tell, don't tell you about folks that we needed very badly in the neighborhood on the eastern sage kashmir is with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element engagement that is that really heavily here,

short only because of people the territory, but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact mosque was in sensitivity to pakistan, security concerns. and if i'm about need to have gannon stan as its own buffer his own against india. that latter your predecessors to, you know, support the more jacqueline against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i don't think bills are going to do. frankly. you. she said before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire. in our case, it became, you know, buffered against the northern shed, but it also, so that other books and there is, whenever we were, we went to was with india, 6571. and i remember to no book you in a junior. so we knew that gobble once every focus certainly surely to warn the east

because we, we didn't have to keep any one of the rest because there's interest in boca, social security was about and showed to look after it. now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal or the furnace 3rd of cobbled, it would become, you know, the so called black borders because there is a horse trade countries. so the said like america elected to ship that so that flag protection is also gone. i remember when this happened, when the service came in, i to 79. i was not getting into letters, but the thing that was heard about that then was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a knocked crick in the on the east told row. and now the soviet and india friendly schubert about, on the west for that event that come because the scenario you will do whatever you

can in order to get yourself out of the job of the net. correct? or is you put it, or you made a pact with an american, which later led to your participation pakistan's participation in the american led warren terror, which claimed, if i'm not mistaken, some 80000 lives and over a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile shoot, this is not the point to some people. i own one look and always us and what was the option at that time and said in the $79.00 and whatever, push one period, 2 years. and ultimately, that border become sick, or at least from a forum foreign military, in this particular case, 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if there was a price we paid, it had to pay it because in this particular with that claim the rest of the world was it or say, in this particular case, visually via fun, valuable,

and the resistance. and by august and virtually we were all or neural hardly any one or said will come and say, now here is the money here or the purpose. well, some people, me here, but why did something or covertly? so 20 years, if you have who have withstood their team and in the process now and can see afghanistan as again independent, america diminished, went away. we all considered that is to be a great success. you can tell them people, i mean countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. 20000000. they're still type of price. countries paying for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of no colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country or you, or are under somebody's or food because i mean the station in ukraine as difficult

as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or they are free in the west, but i think this station is far more complex than this. yes, i agree issue all really more complex. you snorted deseeno for the people that we are able to resist that we want to go that we will not to become record of understand. for example, usually the so gordon lation, william population there, walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time and now with the american they have and they are very unhappy that they have gone back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money now for deliver dear. these people are in trouble. so they look at us, the americans bought us more than the book that anyone is. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. no. where do you get

a complete national consensus? this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i mean, the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans because i think they and the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it security to neither or thought it out, or is that security to nathan, the americans, they expected the west to come to their defenses and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a mystery. cooperated with the americans. yes. when the service will dear. dear cooperated. thus they came 2 years later. it instantly started with the missouri dnr baggage. any i say my british as a similarly, in case of the sun, we may have given you some sort of a notable insurance about certain things depot. we were not cooperating with the

medical people and then you worked it and they should double game and front work. well, it was a compulsion. we had to do something so that the italian mand remain viable, that the but they will throw them out. that is how these games are played. no country plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison, her, if no good president, a few korean thinks that he's been left i. e and ray. one can talk about, you know, wrong over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity, he knew what was going to happen. and now you can only get that type of sport and nothing is there. the americans did not. you will tell them in dang, if they did, it took place. if it must go tech, you remember we will not be able to do it late. they could not delicious. when the

cook, you better leave because we're living, otherwise you will be late. so you're saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o choices look at some of the girls teach some exceptions to this role when the americans were true to that word. for example, that with israel, israel did not set away without american support, that we should know. it's a very powerful but ultimately the same strategic debt. this in united states is that the only country that there is a free, lucky except those people who are going to depend, that they will go, we have learned it or not run well after the. and then the 71 war started with, or 65 war and 71 war at that time,

the so called lay sport back and they said we could not, not against it. so you have to look, our frisco dealership is there, there. and we have to take a very short break right now. we're building back in just a few moments stationed ah, a with madison both, both the models you need to do both got nothing new. please deal with a with

a a with, with the personal number. the of the you know, with a b l look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order is

a conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence at the point obviously is too great trust, rather than fear a job with artificial intelligence, real summoning with a robot let's protect its own existence with ah ah welcome back to world the far as with a sad to run a former director general of pakistan, inter services intelligence, mr. dirani. and you wrote recently that can't the,

any country or any big country would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as well as in securities like beauty in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative depending on many conditions. do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security, but relative security? if not for all done at least for let's say, some are configuration, some group of, of countries in the region. you're sure you're right. thank you. were saying that there is no switch to the absolute quality this submit. but depending upon your environment, who are you in a fringe word, your neighbors do try to workshop. for example, marcus, during this last 20 years, the effort was,

if the idea is to get the americans out because that we considered to be the mentor, north indians reached out to it on mended sensors with them because there are some problem stuck in the journey. they're always good problems. i am a beneficiary of you know, are people at that time g, creating bridges for moscow? i was there to so trace because we all believe that these 45 country se used to you and call them again, will follow that very interesting. common. the commonality of interest will take you somewhere. as long as those common interest will be at america, will there be with on that particular things are cooperating? we 1st got my still got no, there is another configuration in which no renewal. i mean again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last, for many years, the men rivalry was going to be between china, right? sheesh and church. i and i is getting friends from all over the place,

especially the most important from the chinese. now question. we are all friends, but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if there are no student centrally share yoshika. celiac perky what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space. turkey human after it a shot on the production plane. if that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new grid game is so important that we are prepared to forego or to look, but of others, mailer, irritants, maybe. so that on that point you can remember, well, so this is the only way that i know alliances are made. sometimes the meal work very often they will lot because one will say no, because of that we have all of your take on rachada report. full word, stick. small little sheet cream. yeah. if they are taken away so that what,

what is it because of that that we must go abroad. this whole abuse me strategy shall immediately some people call it will little work. little certain things happen and there's no one rich because reaction is so costly, so hazardous. well, let me ask you about that, because america and nato strategy are, for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence. that any country would be, even if they are frustrated, would be too scared by the american. our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia followed that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess. what do you think this russian operation with me until the power of american deterrence in terms of other countries defending their national interest? balance is alissa,

the so called full spectrum at all levels. dick, girl, strategic the nuclear, the non conventional, even sub convention we received all guerrillas and so on, so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that we have, unless you have that type of talent. you vulnerable country, like canada shoes, may have plenty of our work, but everyone knows where the actually seizes read it as well. but you only have to say no more dollars. it will all be done and you on the rules are your then get better. so all those people are vulnerable, so there is no such thing as an absolute, it has like no option. but yes, there are certain cities, the nuclear data, for example, in archie's can only see was from nuclear brachman. it was not reuse, but we're affected. we have it that does not mean that we have achieved some sort

of a security. no, it can protect sometimes takes that because of this, the me when become more insecure because of the money that was burger, the server because of some people you know, said countries a layer the lane up against you. so that is the answer that, oh, there will be no, come, lead a dull, absolute or do made dare to let you just keep working in this direction. you try to cover your radius legs. now listen to running. you just mentioned, nuclear deterrent and deterrence and her if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife and there's been a stray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions 2 of the indian pakistani conflict. and specifically, not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons, which the intentions of which were announced that the munich security conference

earlier this year. and to the surprise of many in russia. no one other thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation is it to is that a stranger, do you think are this comparison bit when you know americans looking away or when they needed pakistanis and to all americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians or to be used against the russians. do you think? do you look relational for ukraine? yeah. took place because a little decent for the controller was with moscow. so this will broadly the condition on the wish border. one of the condition under issue couldn't became free . it had to give up as nuclear weapons. under the tudor tickled consumption there were weapons. of course, i suppose they would have a little more confidence in the to really to,

to defer are there to. so that was sure that was what didn't clear a bunch can do. in this particular case. workers may have wished that they can not do anything. no. they cannot send nuclear weapons because that hasn't delivered they mention no one even in the united sheesh will agree with that. but the big factor they do not have to use. that means that that part of that is gone. if they look at the other way, you can develop nuclear weapons. they grew used to do that. in our case, we had a level of about 10 years at that day. and fact, when the, you know suits her, you know, the person amendment came little poor 3 years. the old program was already completed . they start know, the bill. i mean, they don't start from scratch. they do have some expertise from the soviet union, the scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the,

the americans who, well we in, nobody knows for sure the, the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but the, you know, we can make some assumptions, they are true true. i agree on that. if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would meet to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis. the ongoing crisis now 4 or 5 weeks in a few weeks. and i suppose some sort of a will by take my assessment is that it cannot go on like of other districts. there are 2 high, i want to ask you about the style of war fighting, because if you're switch on cnn, you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating. everyone wears we in rush and i as a worker respondent than siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east that recall it swiss cheese style when you have opposition areas next to government control layer. specifically, because the russians were objecting to use the use of heavy artillery in heavily

populated areas which for a long defied and it's prolonging the fight right now, the military operation. but you do that specifically to, you know, protect the civilians. and as i don't want you to take sides, but i wanna sort of ask for your advice as a military as an intelligence. and there also assume a person who dealt with military matters a lot. how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for from i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive and a clear effort to turn the brush again into a pariah and make putting into senseless murder, murder. but i think he is more calculated than that, at least in russia as a country to is more considered of human life than usually it's given a credit for. this is the most potent or, you know,

with that any country hash and out israel, america's real superiority. that means you could call the control the media even after 20 years. you can't go out and they may have suffered badly enough understand this. she tells me the idea that the seat has in certain, but prowess, and credibility, and dick and randal circles around to others, people, they can influence in military, we call a psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them the most gotten good, the best no one else we heard very, very good. we can't even compare research so, so, so some of the euro campaigns launched against augustine from neighboring country smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a big,

very big weakness. but the real sense we're at the hair, i'm talking about that talked about the leather strength which can be breached. but this one is very difficult because it is entrenched in people's minds. so in that case they have done it is holy people like me. you know, i don't want to, you know, bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find a very full intensity thing going in one direction, you know, does orchestrated is not automatic. people dr. about reporting objectively in tracy journalism was the american way. there are entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this has been darker still. there are some other people who might come to that place, but mostly people will simply buy it off the shelf from them. but not like americans like to say that perception is reality, understand what they say,

but sometimes, you know, reality will manifest itself. i mean, it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct, you know, it's broken by history itself because it's always stronger than any. in a brilliant mind, i can understand that because we suffered from it as the best of our 1st. we cannot put that letter till late. but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about to those strategic dept and the buffers and the eucharist. it is such a bold, whole argument that even somewhere like henry kissinger is not a sympathetic for the russians or for us are now. where do you? and he said, under the circumstances, the best solution was to make you can in the bridge between east and west. there's what we've talked about a find some very often lately people in pania and pakistan who do believe we do

think that somebody has to read chartered for beast. you've come to the conclusion . if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation, a final project, that would be the best thing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas, which no said can afford to lose. and that is where you start bringing discontinued formula that a couple of other things also that he saw a, let's call it the run is formula. we have to live there, but i'm greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you, ma'am. hateful, thank you very much. so it was nice to be here and thank you for watching hope to sir again, next week on well, the part ah, with me

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ah hassan's prime minister m ron con is removed from the office, and if those have no confidence following weeks, long political standoff, he say, is being usaa orchestrated the outset. detained, ukrainian nationalist sciences, admit to war crimes such as murdering on civilians, including women. describe how they committed the atrocities and exclusive footage. i shot her in the temple. i was interested how a person dies. i asked one of them what the word pollyanna, to me, you didn't answer, and i shot him dead. on this week's major stories, western powers, round pup accusations against russia massacre in the care of sub boucher moscow says it was a provocation.