is authority and in mind moscow? well to discuss that. and now in joined by a son dirani, former director general of pakistan's inter services intelligence. mr. dirani. thank you very much for your time. it's a great honor for me to talk to you the welcome welcome. so now you were in charge of pakistan's intelligence services in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, i'm sure you're witnessed there, followed the so it pull out from afghanistan when he now here. western analysts comparing the current operation, the current ration operation, ukraine to you know, the previous one in afghanistan, and some of them, i think, predicting that the consequences will be the same, that russia will be buried as a state in the ukraine. what are your thoughts? do you think those are accurate predictions? there are many parallels between various situations. but of honda son, anyhoo korean, i can think of a couple. anyone coming to a fun is fun. whether the service show the american sh,

our neighborhood. we used to call it should reject it. like straightforward one score ukraine, the strict dipped off russia. you called the near abroad because you load the oh do satellite dish lou fellow brought. but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took a great risk the supporting the resistance against gu, super bus trowbridge unit that terminal america good beers in case of you could, and there was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years. we have seen 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane. understandably, if sweetest nettle that notice next door's, it was bad enough that he does come there for, but this is now the work. now if it happened, suddenly you couldn't, didn't become

a member of nettle. then i contradict the negative because because then it is a member of the alliance. and this inter, any, as far as the mosque is concerned, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being are provided into ukraine. now, pakistan that if i remember back then i, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for now. this particular case is just one difference. one could go in ukraine and other no talk entries. every, as we have seen, cannot physically intervene. but if the earth, if it was i'm a member, then i don't think her tricia could ever read it. but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about your security parameters, independent of no concern commonwealth,

20 burnett street photograph, but she has to your for, i mean, these things are creature so that we will, should go in. i'll tell you about as to well, can i actually ask about that? because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly, but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buffer zones on neutral space is almost in a fraud. they always claim that smaller countries i entitled to their own right in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case they can afford to talk about it. for example, if you have above, holy loans, leg now to invest in europe. this seems good. you don't need, let's see, the so called securities on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or buses on their dos, then they have reasons for good concern. now it is the biggest worry about the

refugees, about humanity in grace's world is not because the water is broken out, was broken, our children ears ish, water next door. sure. and sure if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand relief source, no man learns because what do they mean to if you don't to you? sure. if you think that who do need, if you will say that you don't need it, but countries like, i think i can tell to tell you about folks that we needed very badly in the neighborhood on the eastern stage, kashmir, with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element engagement that is that really heavily here, short only because of people the territory. but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact, moscow's in sensitivity to pakistan, security concerns. and if i'm about need to have gantt stan as its own buffer his

own against india, that latter your predecessors to, you know, support the more jacqueline against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i don't think there was an alternative, frankly you, she, hudson before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire. in our case, it became, you know, buffered against the northern shed, but it also, so the other books and there is, whenever we were, we went to was with india, 6571. and i'm a retina book you in a junior or so we knew that gobble once every bogus, suddenly, surely toward the east because and we, we didn't have to keep any one of the rest because there's interest in boca social security was about and showed to look after it now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal, or the furnace 3rd, or cobbled it would become, you know, the so called black borders because there's

a horse trade countries. so the said lake america liked it. so that flag protection is also gone. i remember when this happened, when the service came in, i to 79. i was not getting into letters, but the thing that was heard about that there was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a nut crick indian, the east told road. and now the soviet and india friendly, sober bar of the west for that event, that becomes the scenario. you will do whatever you can. but in order to get yourself out of the jaws of the net, correct? or is you put it, or you made a pact with an american, which later led to your participation pakistan's participation in the american led warren terror, which claimed, if i'm not mistaken, some $80000.00 lives and over

a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile? she, this is no the board to some people i own going look and always us. and what was the option at that time and said in the $79.00 and whatever, push one period, 2 years. and ultimately, that border become sick, or at least from a forum, fallen military in this particular case, 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if the reverse operation will be to take to wait because in this political group that they, the rest of the world are saying, in this particular case, virtually via fun, valuable, and the resistance and by august and virtually we were all or neural hardly any one or, or said will come and see it. now, here is the money here, the purpose. well, some people, me how, but why did something or covertly? so 20 years if you have who of which took 30. and i in the process now and can see

a finest then as again, independent america diminished. went away. we all considered there is to be a great success. if you tell them people, i mean countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. 20000000. dash the type of price. countries being for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of the colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country, or you are under somebody's or food because i mean in the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or they're freeing the west, but i think the station is far more complex than this. yes, i agree. issue all was more complex. you snorted deseeno fun. good compared people

there to you resistor room to go that we and we lot to become record of understand for example, usually the so gordon, latent be william, one population there. walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time and now with the american they have and they are very unhappy that the back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money now for deliver dear. these people are in trouble. so they will curse, the americans bought us more than the book that anyone is. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. nowhere do you get a complete national consensus. this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i mean the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans because i think they and the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it security to

neither or thought it out so that security in the americans, they expected the west to come to their defenses and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army. do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a mystery. cooperated with the americans. yes. when the service will dear. dear cooperated. thus they came 2 years later. the list and had started with the missouri dnr baggage. any i say my british as a similarly, in case of the sun, we may have given you some sort of a water bill insurance about certain things depot. we were not cooperating with the medical people and then you wrote it and they should double game. and sean, what? well, it was a compulsion. we had to do something so that the italian mand remain viable, that the but they will throw them out. that is how these games are played. no country plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her,

if now good president, a few korean thinks that he's been left a ian ray. one can talk about, you know, along over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity, he knew what was going to happen. and now you can only get that there was water. nothing is that the americans did not. you will tell them in dang, if their death took place. if the must go to acu, remember we will not be able to treat leg, they could not delicious plenty the cook, you better leave because we are leaving, otherwise you will be late. so you're saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o truces look at some of the go speech. some exceptions to this role when the

americans were true to their word, for example, that with the israel israel could not set away without american support. that we should know. it could be very powerful, but ultimately the same strategic debt. this in the united states. but is that the only country that there is a lucky except those people who are going to depend that they will go, we have learned it or not run well after the other than the $71.00 war started with, or 65 war, and 71 war at that time, the so called lay sport back and they said we could not, not against it, so you have to look out fresh. good to go. sure, mr. there, any, we have to take a very short break right now. we'll be back in just a few moments station. ah mm

i look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order is a conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence. and the point obviously, is to create trust rather than fear a job with artificial intelligence. real summoning with a robot must protect its own existence with a

ah welcome back to world for is with a sad to run a former director general of pakistan, inter services intelligence, mr. dirani. and you wrote recently that can't, that any country or any big country would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as well as in securities like beauty in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative, depending on many conditions. do you believe in any sort of broader principles or

in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security, but relative security? if not for all down, at least for let's say, some are configuration, some group of her countries in the region. you're sure you wrote in cuba saying that there is no switch to the absolute quality this submit. but depending upon your environment, who are your friends' word, your neighbors? you do try to workshop for example, you marcus, during this last 20 years, the effort was, if the idea is to get the americans out because there to be considered to be the mental it, not the ambience traditional to get on mended fences with them because there are some problem, the key and the journey to always good problems. i am a beneficiary of you know, people are that g, greeting bridges, said moscow. i was there too. so traced. because your belief that these 45

countries i used to you and call them again, will follow that very interesting common. the commonality of interest will take who, somewhere as long as those common interests will be at america. will there be work on that particular thing for the cooperative me? for chicago. my still got now there is another configuration in which no renewal, i'm and again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last 40 years, the men rivalry was going to be between china and right sheesh and church. i nice getting friends from all the place, especially the most important from the chinese. now help question. we are all friends, but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if there are no student centrally share yoshika. celiac perky what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space. turkey human after it is short on the election plane. if that

thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new great game is so important that we are prepared to forego all to look but of others mailer, irritant. maybe so that on that point you can remember, well, so this is the only way that anal allowances are made. sometimes the meal worked very often they will lot because one will say no, because of that we're all new. take on rachada report. full word stick. small little sheet cream. yeah. if they have taken away. so there what, what is it because of that that we must go towards this whole abuse me strategy shall immediately some people call it will little work. little certain things happen and there's no one rich because reaction is so costly, so hazardous. well, let me ask you about that,

because america and nato strategy are, for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence. that any country would be, even if they are frustrated, would be too scared by the american. our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia followed that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess. what do you think this russian operation would mean till the power of american deterrence in terms of other countries defending their national interest? battalions is alyssa is so called full spectrum at all levels. dick, girl, strategic the nuclear, the non conventional, even sub convention we received all guerrillas and so on, so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that we have, unless you have that type of didn't you, vulnerable country like canada shoes may have plenty of our work. but everyone

knows where the actually seizes read it as well. but we only have to say no more dollars, it will all be done and you on the rules are your then get panicky. so all those people are vulnerable. so there is no such thing as an absolute. it has like no option. but yes, there are certain cities, the nuclear data, for example, in archie's can only see was from nuclear brachman. it was not reuse, but we affected we have it. that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can protect sometimes takes that because of this, the me when become more insecure because of the money that was burger, the server because of some people you know, said countries a layer the lane up against you. so that is the answer that though it will be no, come, lead the absolute or do made better that you just keep working in this direction.

you try to cover your radius legs. now listen to running. you just mentioned, nuclear deterrent and deterrence and her if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife and there's been a stray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions 2 of the indian pakistani conflict. and specifically, not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons which the intentions of which were announced that the munich security conference earlier this year and to the surprise of many in russia, no one saw the thing about it. even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation, is it a, bu is that a stranger? do you think are this comparison bit when you know americans looking away when they needed pakistanis and to all the americans possibly looking away when they need the

ukrainians are to be used against the russians. do you think the new parishioner for ukraine it took place because of the dea search for the controllers with moscow? so this will broadly the condition on that which border one of the conditions under which you can and became free. you tend to give up as nuclear weapons under the today, decal consumption that there were weapons. of course, i suppose they would have a little more confidence in the to really to, to defer. are there is sure that i'm sure there does what didn't clear up was can do in this particular case, workers may have wished that they can not do anything. no. they cannot send nuclear weapons because that hasn't delivered. they mention no one even in the united states, will agree with that. but the big factor they do not have to use their to move that,

that part of that is gone. if they look at the other way, you can develop nuclear weapons. they grew used to do that. in our case, we had a level of about 10 years at that day. in fact, when the unit suits are, you know, the person amendment came the other 2 or 3 years, the old program was already completed. they start know the bill. i mean, they don't start from scratch, they do have some expertise from the soviet union. the scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the, the americans who, well we in, nobody knows for sure the, the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but the, you know, we can make some assumptions. they are true true, agree on that. if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would need to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis. the ongoing crisis now 4

or 5 weeks in a few weeks. and i suppose some sort of a will by take my assessment is that it cannot go on like of other districts are too high. i want to ask you about the style of war fighting. because if you switch on cnn, you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating everyone wears, we in rush and i as a worker respondent than siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east that recall it swiss cheese style when you have opposition areas next to government control layer. specifically, because the russians were objecting to use the use of heavy artillery in the heavily populated areas which for a long defied and it's prolonging the fight right now, the military operation. but you do that specifically to, you know, pretend the civilians are, as i don't want you to take sides. but i wanna sort of asked for your advice as a military as an intelligence. and there also, i assume

a person who dealt with military matter is a lot, how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for fun, i think from the side of the west we, we do see an emotional offensive, an air clear effort to turn the brush again and share pariah and make putting into senseless murder, murder. but i think he's more calculated than that at least. and rush as a country to is more considered of human life. and usually it's given credit for. this is the most potent factor or your weapon that any country hash. and that is weird. america's real superiority little means you could call the narrative the control the media, even after 20 years, you can't go out and they may have suffered badly enough understand the st of media . this fit has it in certain, but prowess and credibility. and dick and drum circles around to others,

people they could influence in military, we call a psychological warfare. so if, because of the, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them. the most brought and good, good. the best no one else we heard. very, very good. we can't even compare research so so, so some of the, you know, campaigns launched against buggy started from neighboring countries, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a big, very big weakness. but the real stance we're at the have, i'm talking about that talked about i did other stance which can be reached. but this one is very difficult because it is entrenched in people's minds. so in that case they have and it is only people like me. you know, i don't want to, you know,

bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find an accosted, a very full intensity, think going in one direction, you know, it is orchestrated, it's not automatic. people, not robert reporting objectively. in tracy journalism was the american way. there are entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this is being a darker student. there are some other people who might come to their place. but most of the people will simply buy it off the ship from the mag this, but not like americans like to say that perception is reality, understand what they say. but sometimes, you know, reality bill manifest itself. i mean, it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct is broken by history itself because it's always stronger than any in a brilliant mind, by going to understand that because we've suffered from good as the best of her 1st,

we cannot put relatives right. but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about to the strategic deb tell the buffers and the ukraine's it is such a bowl, our government that even somewhere lake and cassandra is not a sympathetic for directions or for us are now where do you and he said, under the circumstances the best solution was to make you clean the bridge between east and west. there's what we have thought of on some very often lately people in by noon pakistan who do believe we do think that somebody has to read chartered for bees. we've come to the conclusion. if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation, a final project, that would be the best thing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas, which said couldn't afford to lose. and that is real. you start doing good discuss

in his home will up. there are a couple of other things also that he's well a, let's call it there on his formula. we have to live in there, but i am greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you, ma'am. i need food. thank you very much. so nice to be it. and thank you for watching hope to start again next week on wells apart. ah, with me. with

who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing additional strong sanctions. today russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing. a list of contributors. he's becoming your senior mostly mind the we're, we're sure we're banding all in ports of russian oil and gas news. i know they plenty of with little, you know, we're pretty good regarded joe, by imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang self with

a sounds prime minister in ron con is removed from the office. and if those have no confidence following a week long political stand off, he claims the usaa orchestra to be out. detained. ukrainian nationally suffices admit to war crimes such as murdering on civilians including women. i describe how they committed the atrocities and exclusive footage. i shot her in the temple, i was interested how a person dies. i asked one of them what the word tally any to me. he didn't answer and i shot him dead. next week's major stories, western powers, round up accusations against russia, masika and the most goes, says it was a provocation committed to derail peace talks and to prolong the conflict the inability to negotiate. once again kerry.