capability would the america look away yet again, if it were to undermine moscow? well, to discuss that a now and joined by a sub dirani, former director general of pakistan's inter services intelligence. mr. dirani, thank you very much for your time. it's a great honor for me to talk to you local. welcome. so now you were in charge of pakistan's intelligence services. in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, i'm sure you witnessed that, followed the so it pull out from afghanistan when he now here. western analyst comparing the current operation to current russian operation, ukraine to you know, the previous one in afghanistan, and some of them, i think, predicting that the consequences will be the same, that russia will be buried as a state in the ukraine. what are your thoughts? do you think those are accurate predictions? there are many parallels between various situations. but of harness on any who korean. i can think of a couple. anyone coming to

a fun is fun. whether the service show the american sh, our neighborhood. we used to call it sure to use it. like straightforward ones. who are you korean district dipped off russia? you called it the near abroad people, dakota? you know the oh, do certainly mission lou fellow brought. but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took a great risk the supporting the resistance, i guess, go super bush trowbridge unit, their terminal america, good beers in case of you could, and this was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years we have seen 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane, understandably, if witnessed, nettle the note was, next door's, it was bad enough that had his gun that far. but this is now the way. now if it

happened, suddenly, you couldn't, didn't become a member of nettle. then i contradict the negative because because then it is a member of the alliance, and this inter, any, as far as mazda is concerned, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither, as long as the western weaponry is being provided into ukraine. now, pakistan that if i remember back then i, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but the, you know, the americans use it quite extensively for this is just one to french. one could go in ukraine and other neutral countries have, as we have seen, cannot physically interview. but if the earth, if it was, i'm a member, then i don't think, oh, trisha could ever read it. but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about your security parameters, independent of, you know,

concur commonwealth, windy burnett, street photograph c as to your for, i mean, these things are created. so that was a good i'll tell you about as to well, can i actually ask about that? because her western and friends, perhaps only publicly, but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buff resumes on neutral. steve is almost in a fraud, they always claim that smaller countries i entitled to their own right in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case, they couldn't afford to talk about it. for example, if you have above all alone sleep now to invest in europe. this seems good. you don't need, let's see, the so called securities on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or buses on their dos,

then they have reasons for good control. now it is the biggest worry about the refugees, about humanity graces about is not because the water is broken out, was broken actually is, is water next door, sir? and so if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand relief. sause no man learns by hers. what do they mean? so if you don't to you, if you are, if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like, i think i can tell, don't tell you about like stuff. we need it very badly in the neighborhood. on the eastern sage kashmir with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element engaged mirror that is very heavy here in short only because of people the territory, but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact moscow's in sensitivity to pakistan's security concerns and if i'm about need to have ghana,

stan as its own buffer his own against india. that latter your predecessors to, you know, support the more jacqueline against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i don't think there was an alternative, frankly you, she said before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire. in our case, it became, you know, buffered against the northern shed, but it also, so the other books and there is, whenever we were given who was with india, 6571. and i remember to no book you in a junior or so we knew that gobble wants every bogus. certainly surely here to warn the east because we, we didn't have to keep any one of the rest because there's interest in boca, social security, was about, and showed to look after it. now, the symbol that used to be looked after by illiberal or the furnace 3rd,

cobbled it would become, you know, the so called black borders because there is a horse trade countries. so the shade like america liked to ship that. so that flag protection is also gone. i remember when this happened, when the service came in late the 7th night, i was not here to leave early just but the thing that was my heard about that then was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a net crick indian dish told ro, and now the soviet and india friendly, sober, vital to the rest. for that event, that becomes the scenario. you will do whatever you can. but in order to get yourself out of the jaws of the nutcracker, as you put it on, you made a pact with an american's which later led to your participation pakistan's participation in the american led warren terror, which claimed if i'm not mistaken,

some $80000.00 lives and over a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile? you shoot, this is know the point to some people i own going to look and always us. and what was the option at that time and said in the $79.00 and whatever, push one period, 2 years. and ultimately, that border become sick, or at least from a forum, fallen military, in this particular case, 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if the rivers are price, you will be to take to pay it because in this particular with their claim, the rest of the world will that are saying in this particular case, visually via fun, valuable, and the resistance and by august and virtually we were all or neural hardly any one or, or said will come and see it. now here is the money here or the purpose. well, some people, me how, but why did something or covertly? so 20 years, if you have who, of which to,

they're getting an out in the process now and can see a finest then as again, independent america diminished. went away. we all considered that is to be a great success. if you tell them people, i'm, if countries be much more for their freedom, don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. $20000000.00 dash to tape of price. countries being for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of the colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country, or you are under somebody's or food because i mean in the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or their free in the west, but i think this station is far more complex than this. yes,

i agree. issue all was more complex. you snorted deseeno fun. good. compared people near to yoga resistor room to go that we and will not become record of understand for example, usually the so gordon, latent be william on population there. walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time. and now the big american they have and they are very unhappy that the back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money now for deliver dear. these people are in trouble. so they will curse. the americans bought us more than the book that anyone is. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. nowhere do you get a complete national consensus? this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i mean, the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans, because i think the ukrainian president is now pretty open and vocal about not

getting what he expected from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it security to neither or thought that it out source, that security to nathan, the americans, they expected the west to come to their advances and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a mystery. cooperated with the americans. yes. when the service will dear. dear cooperated. thus they came 2 years later. the list and had started with the missouri dnr baggage. any i say my predecessor. similarly, in case of the sun, we may have given you some sort of a notable insurance about certain things deep. don't revert, not cooperating with the medical keep don't. and then you worked, then she'd double game and from what, well, it was a compulsion. we had to do something so that the italian mand remain viable, that the but they will to them out. that is how these games are played. no country

plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her, if now poor resident, the few korean thinks that he's been left i. e and ray, one can talk about, you know, along over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity, he knew what was going to happen. and now you can only get that type of water. nothing is that the americans did not. you will tell them in dang if their dad took place. if the must go deck, you remember if you like me were, could treat leg, they could not delicious plenty the cook, you better leave because we're leaving. otherwise, you will be late show you saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who

h o chose it. look at some of the goals, teach some exceptions to this role when americans were true to their worth. for example, that with the israel israel did not set away without american support. that we should know, it would be very powerful, but ultimately the same strategic debt. these in united states is that the only country that there is a lucky except those people who are going to depend that they will go, we have learned it or not. after the, when the 71 war started with or 65 war and 71 vote at this, so called a sport back and they said we could not, nothing interested. yeah. so you have to look up frisco dealership, is there any we have to take a very short break right now. we'll be back in just a few moments station. ah,

ah, ah . lou needs to come to the russian state. full narrative style does on the most lensky, the vest. mm hm. then the king, also, son, son of a group in the $55.00 with keys on any

gardens b. one else with we will van in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on russia today, and archie spook, even our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube with, with, with, with, with, with mm hm. ah, welcome back to wells. far as with a son to run a former director general of pakistan, inter services intelligence,

mr. dirani. and you wrote recently that i can't that any country or any big country would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as was insecurities like beauty in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative depending on many conditions. do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security, but the relative security? if not for all done at least for let's say some are configuration, some group of ha countries in the region. yes, sure. you're right tank who will shake good. didn't no switch to the absolute quality this submit. but depending upon your environment, who are your friends word, years neighbors. you do try to workshop for example, united case during this last 20 years. the effort was if the

idea is for get the americans out because there be considered to be the mental it, not the indians reached out to iran, mending fences with them because there are some problems. tokyo, the journey, always good problems. i am a beneficiary of you know, are people at that time g, creating bridges for moscow? i was there to so trace because you all believe that these 45 countries i used to you and call them again will follow that very interesting. common, the commonality of interest will take you somewhere, as long as those common interests will be at america, will there be with on that particular things as a cooperative? we 1st got my still got. now there is another configuration in which no renewal, i mean again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last, for many years,

the men rivalry was going to be between china, right? sheesh and church. i and i is getting friends from all over the place, especially the most important from the chinese. now question. we are all friends, but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if there are no student centrally share yoshika. celiac perky what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space turkey, even after it a shot on the direction plane. if that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new grid game is so important that we are prepared to forego or look whatever those mailer, irritants maybe. so that on that point you can remember, well, so this is the only way that i know alliances are made. some thanks, dear me work. very often they will lot because one will say no,

because of that we're all guilty on rachada report. fullborne those 2 small little sheet cream. yeah. if they have taken away. so there what, what is it because of that that we must go abroad. this whole business strategy shall immediately some people call. it will little work, little certain things happen and there's no one rich because reaction is so costly, so hazardous. well, let me ask you about that because america and native strategy are for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence that any country would be, even if they are frustrated, would be too scared by the american. our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess what, what do you think this russian operation with me until the power of american

deterrence in terms of other countries defending their national interest. bitterness is unless it is so called full spectrum at all levels. it girl ctv the nuclear, the non conventional, even sub convention when we see you know, guerrillas and so on, so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that we have, unless you have that type of returns. you vulnerable country like canada shoes may have plenty of our work, but everyone knows where the actually sees is rated as well. but we only have to say no more dollars, it will all be done and you arms or rules or your then get better. so all those people are vulnerable. so there is no such thing as an absolute. it has like no absolute. but yes, there are certain cities, the nuclear data, for example, in archie's can only see was from nuclear brachman. it was not reuse,

but mere fact that we have it. that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can protect sometimes takes that because of this, the me when become more insecure because of the money that was burger, the server because of some people you know, said countries a layer the lane up against you. so that is the answer that, oh, there will be no come, lead a dull absolute ultimate data that you just keep working in this direction. you try to cover your radius legs. now it must, under any you've just mentioned, nuclear deterrent and deterrence and her. if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife. and there's been a stray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions to of the indian pakistani conflict. and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons

which the intentions of which were announced that the munich security conference earlier this year. and to the surprise of many in russia, no one other thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation is it to, is that a stranger, do you think are this comparison bit when you know americans looking away when they needed pakistanis? and to all americans, possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians to be used against the russians . do you think the new relation of ukraine? yeah. took place because of little the essence for the controller was with moscow. so this will broadly the condition on the wish border. one of the condition under issue can and became free to give up as nuclear weapons under the tudor tickled consumption there were weapons. of course, i suppose they would have

a little more confidence in their ability to defer are they to so that was sure there does what didn't clear up was can do in this particular case, workers may have wished that they can not do anything. now, we cannot send nuclear weapons, will go, that hasn't delivered, they mention no one even in the united states, will agree with that. but the big factor they do not have to use. that means that, that part of that is gone. if they look at the other way and you can develop nuclear weapons like we used to do that. in our case, we had a lap of about 10 years at that day. in fact, when the united states, you know, the president amendment came whether 2 or 3 years, the whole program was already completed. this start now for the hell, i mean that they don't start from scratch. they do have some expertise from the

soviet union, the scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the americans who well we in, nobody knows for sure the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but the, you know, we can make some assumptions there. true, true, agree on that. if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would need to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis, the ongoing crisis now for 5 weeks. and then a few weeks, you know, support some sort of a will take my assessment is that it cannot go on to like, of other districts or to i, i want to ask you about the style of for fighting. because if you're switch on cnn you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating everyone wears, we in rush and i as a worker responded than siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east that recall it swiss cheese style when you

have opposition areas next to government controllers. specifically, because the russians were objecting to use the use of heavy artillery in the heavily populated areas which for along the flight and it's prolonging the fight right now, the military operation. but you do that specifically to, you know, protect the civilians are, as i don't want you to take sides. but i wanna sort of ask for your advice as the military as an intelligence. and they're also assuming a person who dealt with military matters a lot. how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for from i think from the side of the west we, we do see an emotional offensive and a clear effort to turn the russia again into a pariah and make put an inter, senseless murder, murder. but i think he is more calculated than that, at least. and russia, can she change more considered of human life than usually it's given credit for.

this is the most potent factor or your there been that any country hash and that is weird, america's real superiority motivates you could call the narrative the control the media, even after 20 years. you can't go out and they may have suffered badly enough and it's done this. she tells me the idea that the seat has in certain, but prowess and credibility. and dick and randal circles around to others, people, they can influence in military, we call a psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them the most gotten good, good, the best no one else we heard very, very good. we can't even compare research so so, so some of the, you know,

campaigns launched against by august the, and from neighboring countries, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a big, very big weakness. but the real cent we're at the hair, i'm talking about that talked about the other stance which can be breached. but this one is very difficult because it is entrenched in people's minds. so in that case they have done it is holy people like me. you know, i don't want to, you know, bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find an accosted, a very full intensity thing going in one direction, you know, it is our facilitators, not automatic people, dr. about reporting objectively. and tracy journalism was the american we, there are entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this has been darker still. there are some other people who might come to that place. but most of the people will simply buy it off the shelf from the mag this,

but not like americans like to say that perception is reality, understand what they say. but sometimes, you know, reality will manifest itself. i mean, it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct, you know, it's broken by history itself because it's always stronger than any, you know, brilliant mind. i can understand that because we suffered from it as the best of our 1st. we cannot put that letter till today, but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about to have those strategic dept and the buffers and the ukraine's it is such a powerful argument that even somewhere like henry kissinger is not a sympathetic for directions or for us or now, where do you and he said, under the circumstances the best solution was to make you can in the bridge between east and west. there's what we've talked wrote of,

and some very often lately people in by me are in pakistan. who do believe we do think that somebody has to read chartered for beast. we've come to the conclusion. if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation, a final project that will be the best thing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas, which no said can afford to lose. and that is where you start bringing this chris in his formula. there are a couple of other things also that he's well a, let's call it the run is formula. we have to leave it there, but i am greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you, ma'am. it'll take really much. so it was nice to be here and thank you for watching hope to see again next week on. well, the part ah with

me ah with

ah, pohden is the aggressor tune chose is war. today i'm authorized with additional strong sanctions, but they go to chose latino in the scholarship as we speak on louisiana. mostly mind the branding all in ports of russian oil and gas turbine and imposing the sanctions. i brush you as destroy the american. in fact, there's a boomerang by where you're suffering the i key interest really hitting people in the pocket book, boys or girls was always there. i see a using a router visitor unless you this is gonna impose severe cost on the russian economy of immediately and over.