called the near abroad because you know, the satellite nation who fell abroad, but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took a great risk the supporting the resistance agrees to super bus trowbridge unit that america 20 years in case of you could and there was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years we have seen in 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane, understandably, if it is natural, the note was next door's, it was bad enough that it does come that far, but this is now the work. now, if it happened, suddenly, you couldn't, didn't become a member of nato. then i contradict the guide because because then it is a member of their lines and this inter any as far as moscow's content, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into ukraine

. now, pakistan, if i remember a bag and you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for now. this particular case is just one difference. one could go in ukraine and other notebook entries have, as we have seen, cannot physically interview. but if they are, if it was, i'm a member, then i don't think her treasure could ever read it. but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about yours security parameters, independent of no contract or commonwealth independent stage for but see a still for, i mean, these things are creature so that you should go in. i'll tell you about as to well, can i actually ask about that? because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly,

but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buff resumes on neutral steve is almost in a fraud. they always claim that smaller countries i entitled to their own ride in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case they can afford to talk about it. for example, if you have above, holy loans, leg now to invest in europe. this seems good. they don't need, let's see, the so called securities on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or buses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. nowadays, the biggest worry about the refugees, about humanity in graces about is not because the water is broken out, was broken out so many years, it's war next door srr. and so if that is the reason they are panicking,

one can understand relief sauce. no man learns buffers. what do they mean? if you don't to you? sure. if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like, i think i can tell that tell you about both. so we need it very badly over the neighborhood, or least in sage, kashmir, with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element engagement that is that very heavily here. in short, only because of people in the territory, but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact moscow's in sensitivity to pakistan, security concerns and it's, i'm about need to have ghana, stan as its own buffer his own against india. that latter your predecessors, to, you know, support the more jacket in against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush,

i don't think the illusion or do, frankly you she, if hudson before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire. in our case, it became, you know, a buffer against the northern shed, but it also, so there isn't books. and there is whenever we were given who was with india, 6571. and i remember to no book you in a junior or so we knew that goble once every bogus, suddenly showing here to warn the east because we we didn't have to keep any one of the rest because there's interest in boca social security was about and showed to look after it. now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal, or the furnace 3rd, or cover the it would become, you know, the so called blood borders because there is a horse trade countries. so the shade like america, like trabusia that so that flag protection is also gone.

i remember when this happened when the service came in. thank to 79 of us, not yet in delhi, just but the thing that was brought me heard about that then was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a nut crick. indian dish told road. and now the soviet and india for lisa, what about the risk for that event? that becomes the scenario. you will do whatever you can in order to get yourself out of the job of the net, correct? or is you put it, or, you know, may, they're packed with an american's which later led to your participation pakistan's participation in the american led warren terror, which claimed, if i'm not mistaken, some $80000.00 lives and over a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile? you shoot, this is know the point to some people i own going to look and always us than what

was the option at that time and said in the 79 and whatever place one page years. and ultimately, that border becomes a good at least from a forum foreign military, in this particular case, 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if there was a price we paid, it had to pay it because in this particular with that, then the rest of the world will that are say in this particular case, visually via fun, valuable, and the resistance. and by august and virtually we were all or neural hardly any one or said will come and say, now here is the money here, the purpose. well, some people, me how, but why did something or covertly? so 20 years if you have who of which to their to enter in the process now and can see a finest then as again, independent america diminished. went away. we all considered that is to be a great success. if you tell them people,

i mean countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. 20000000. their stiff type of price. countries paying for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of no colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country, or you are under somebody's or food because i mean the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or they are free in the west, but i think the station is far more complex than this. yes, i agree issue all really more complex. you snorted the scene offered. good compared people there to you resistor room to go that we and will not become record you love understand, for example, usually the so gordon lation, william population there,

walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time. and now the big american they have, and they are very unhappy that they have gone back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money now for deliver dear. these people are in trouble. so they look at us, the americans bought us more than the more than anyone is. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. nowhere do you get a complete national consensus. this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i'm in the question of pakistan's corporation with americans, because i think the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it security to neither or thought that it outsource that security to nathan, the americans, they expected the west to come to their defenses, and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army.

do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a mystery. cooperated with the americans. yes. when the soldiers will dare dare cooperated thus they came 2 years later. the list and had started with the missouri dnr baggage. any i say my privileges. similarly, in case of her son, we may have given you some sort of a verbal insurance about certain things depot. we were not cooperating with the medical people and then you worked, then she'd double game and on what, when it was a compulsion, we had to do something so that the italian mand remain viable, that the but they will throw them out. that is how these games are played. no country plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison, her, if no good president of few korean thinks that he's been left i. e and

ray, one can talk about, you know, wrong over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity, he knew what was going to help. and now you can only get that type of support and nothing else that the americans did not. you will tell them in dang, if they did, it took place. if it must go tech, you remember we will not be able to do it. like they could not deletion of any the cook. you better leave because we're leaving, otherwise you will be late. so you're saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o choices. look at some of the gulf states. sam, exceptions to this role when the americans were true to that way. for example, that with israel israel did not set away without american support,

that we should know you can be very broad, full, but ultimately the same strategic debt. gus in united states is that the only country that there is for you, like except those people who are going to depend that they will go, we have learned it or not run well after the. and then the 71 war started with, or 65 or 71 vote at that day with the so called a sport back. and they said we could not, not against it. so you have to look up frisco to go. sure. is there any we have to take a very short break right now? we'll be back in just a few moments. ah ah, ah

. ah, fill up another story, he's got a board. missed this deal with what you're, what they have a new team push here. you can push it to . so if somebody see wayne lee, but i do them bye. ah

welcome back to wells. far as with aside to run a former director general of pakistan, inter services intelligence, mr. dirani. and you wrote recently that i can't that any country or any big country would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as well as in securities like beauty in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative depending on many conditions. do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security, but relative security? if not for all done at least for let's say, some are configuration, some group of her countries in the region. yes,

sure. you're right. thank you. were saying that there is no switch to the absolute quality this submit. but depending upon your environment, who are you in a fringe word, your neighbors do try to workshop. for example, marcus, during this last 20 years, the effort was if the idea is to get the americans out because therapy considered to be the mental it, not the indians reached out to get on mended fences with them because there are some problems stuck in the journey they're always good problems. i am a beneficiary of you know, are people at that time degrading bridges with moscow? i was there to so trace because we all believe that these 45 countries they used to you and call them again, will follow that very interest. look common, the commonality of interest will take you somewhere. as long as those common

interest will be at america, will there be with on that particular things are cooperating? we 1st got my still got. no, there is another configuration in which no re, no, i mean again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last, for many years, the men rivalry was going to be between china, right? sheesh and church. i and i is getting friends from all over the place, especially the most important from the chinese. now question. we are all friends, but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if there are no student centrally share yoshika. celiac perky what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space turkey human after it a shot on the election plane. if that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new grid game is so important that we are prepared to forego or to look, but of others,

mailer editors, maybe. so that on that point you can remain to well, so this is the only way that anal allowances are made. some thanks, dear me work. very often they will lot because one will say no, because of that we have a lot of new take on rachada report. full word. stick. small little sheet cream. yeah. if they are taken away, so that what, what is it because of that, that we must go abroad. this whole abuse me strategy shall immediately some people call it means little work, little certain things happen. and there's no one rich because reaction is so costly. so hazardous, well, let me ask you about that because america and made a strategy are, for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence that any country would be, even if they are frustrated, would be too scared by the american,

our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess what do you think this russian operation with me until the power of american deterrence in terms of other countries defending their national interests, bitterness is alyssa is so called full spectrum at all levels. it girl strategic, the nuclear, the non conventional, even sub convention, we received all guerrillas and so on, so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that we have unless you have that type of didn't you, vulnerable country like canada shoes may have plenty of our but everyone knows where the actually sees is read it as well. but you only have to say no more dollars, it will all be done and you on the rules are your then get better. so all those

people are vulnerable. so there is no such thing as an absolute. it has like no option. but yes, there are certain cities, the nuclear data, for example, in archie's can only see was from nuclear brachman. it was not reuse, but we're affected. we have it. that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can protect someone thinks that because of this, the me when become more insecure because of the money that was burger, the server because of some people you know, said countries a layer in the lane up against you. so that is the answer that are so it will be no come lead at the absolute ultimate day to let you just keep working in this direction. you try to cover your radius legs. now listen to running. you just mentioned, nuclear deterrent and deterrence and her if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin

committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife and there's been astray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions to of the indian pakistani conflict. and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons which the intentions of which were announced at the munich security conference earlier this year. and to the surprise of many in russia, no one other thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation. is it a, bu, is that a stranger? do you think are this comparison bit when you know americans looking away or when they needed pakistanis or to all americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians or to be used against the russians. do you think duke resolution of ukraine? yeah. took place because of little decent for the controllers with moscow. so this

will probably the condition on that which border one of the condition and the issue couldn't became free. it had to give up as nuclear weapons. under the tudor tickled consumption that there were rebels, of course, i suppose they would have a little more confidence in the to really to, to defer are there to so that was sure that was what didn't clear was, can do in this particular case, workers may have wished that they can not do anything. no, they cannot send nuclear weapons, will go, that hasn't delivered, they mention no one, even in the red shoes, will agree with that. but the big factor they do not have to use. that means that, that part of that is gone. if they look at the other way, you couldn't, can develop nuclear weapons. they used to do that. in our case, we had a level of about 10 years at that day. and fact, when the unit shoots her,

you know, the person amendment came little poor 3 years, the old program was already completed. they start know that the hell, i mean, they don't start from scratch. they do have some expertise from the soviet union, the scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the, the americans who, well we in, nobody knows for sure the, the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but the, you know, we can make some assumptions, they are true true. i agree on that. if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would need to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis. the ongoing crisis now 4 or 5 weeks in a few weeks and i suppose some sort of a will by take my assessment do that it cannot go on like of other districts are too high. i want to ask you about the style of war fighting, because if you switch on cnn you,

you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating. everyone wears we in rush and i as a worker respondent. then siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east. they recall it swiss cheese style when you have opposition areas next to government control layer. specifically, because the russians were objecting to use the, the use of heavy artillery in their heavily populated areas which for a long defied and it's prolonging the fight right now in the military operation. but you do that specifically to, you know, protect the civilians. and as i don't want you to take sides, but i wanna sort of ask for your advice as a military as an intelligence. and they're also assume a person who dealt with military matters a lot. how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for from i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive and a clear effort to turn the brush again into

a pariah and make putting into senseless murder, murder. but i think he is more calculated than that, at least in russia as a country to is more considered of human life than usually it's given a credit for. this is the most potent or, you know, with that any country hash and out. israel americus, real superiority, means you could call the control the media. you were involved 20 years, you can't go out and they may have suffered badly enough. understand this to media, did the seat as it in certain, but prowess and credibility. and they can trundle circles around to others, people they can influence in military, we call a psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe in america become

sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them, the most potent will did do it the best. no one else we heard very, very good. we can't even compare with so so, so some of the, you know, campaigns launched against buggy started from a neighboring country, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a big, very big weakness. but the real stance we're the have, i'm talking about that talked about the other stance which can be breached. but this one is very difficult because it is enclosed in people's minds. so in that case, they have done it. usually people like me. you know, i don't want to, you know, bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find a very full intensity thing going in one direction, you know, it is out of history. it is not automatic people. dr. board reporting objectively

in tracy. journalism was the american way. there are entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this is being a darker student. there are some other people who might come to that place, but mostly people will simply buy it off the ship from the mag. this is not like americans like to say that perception is reality, understand what they say, but sometimes, you know, reality will manifest itself. i mean, it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct is broken by history itself because it's always stronger than any, you know, brilliant mind. i can understand that because we suffered from it as the best of efforts. we cannot put that right or terms, right? but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about to the strategic deb tell the buffers and the you crunch it to such a bowler government that he went somewhere. lake and cassandra is not

a sympathetic for directions or for us or no or do you. and he said under the circumstances the best solution was to make you can in the bridge between east and west. there's what we've thought, wrote a find some very often lately people in by me or in pakistan who do believe we do think that somebody has to read chartered for beast. you've come to the conclusion . if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation, a final project that will be the best thing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas, which no said can afford to lose. and that is where you start doing it discusses formula. there are a couple of other things also that he's, well, let's call it the wrong formula. we have to live in there, but i am greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you, ma'am. hateful, thank you very much. so it was nice to be here and thank you for watching hope to

start again next week on well, the part ah, with me ah. so what we've got to do is identify the threads that we have it trees, even on station let it be an arms race is often very dramatic, a development only personally, i'm getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time to sit down and talk

it. you know, so your book was ac not blowing. mm. are still up on. yeah. stall clean scott, i don't know who to support what kind of board missed the yes. or ford, you registered with the way, would it be a good news for you to put you put huge which you more difficult does was too late to 3rd up up up for the day of school or throw that then you shouldn't have been really well just you said all of us that why, why don't you lead in this particular way? potential pushes, mean, pushy, i get some push a somebody see way lead to put

a do it on them by oh, is your media reflection of reality? in the world transformed? what will make you feel safe? isolation for community. are you going the right way? where are you being led somewhere? right, what is true, what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows.

a a talk is done with tens of thousands taking the city streets around the country in support of the recently outward prime minister in con, who says washington pushed for his removal because of his close ties with russia and china with joe biden is to hold talks with indian prime minister, director muddy as the u. s. escalade pressure for india to distance itself from moscow and quote, downscale purchases of russian weaponry western media once again shows that ukrainian forces displaying not the symbols without mentioning the fact as an icon of an s s division is clearly.