you company, if you wanted to show in your, or a new new new the new book on top of you mentioned loud to check with the additional done. yeah, that was just so you should move up. we pool where you in the world. but at the end of 2014, he went on the war path again, i'm fighting for that up in the southeast once more with

. ringback ah, in the united states has always had a variety of tools to use and tax on other countries. economic sanctions are, are often just the beginning. another thing you like to do is place some military pressure on the countries that you're talking about and there have to be an effort to demonize that country and the leader of that country. we have

a responsibility for the whole world. and we need to make rules for the rest because without out there will be k i d o. a

with dom option or not? sure what's going on the ground the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look just spike nature nation and he you censorship. but until then, we'll be showing some of your favorite shows of the season so far coming up with his show, while bar a strong to new fights for his political life this weekend may have opposed charging those involved. the world is but hours away from commemorating a 10 minute massacre. bloody sunday, we investigate. and after the vatican last week be occupies priests, slaughtered by alleged so called us back to death squads in el salvador. what should we expect from the country supreme court? opening up a new investigation into the murders of jesuits clerics inspired st. oscar romero

himself mounted 45 years ago. we speak to an expert witness in the case all the same, all coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing unarmed civilians. and also no one has ever faced trial and bras. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining me now from cook's down, northern ireland is fine and people middle to france. malloy. thanks so much for coming back on. i mean, people were waiting this week for su grey in an inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about. tell me and remind us about what bloody bloody sunday was. and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and officials after the atrocity. well, thank you very much for the invitation to come on. a really sunday was change in our parish, a political saying it was

a massive change because for the 1st time and the charade champion british soldiers had, i went in and opened fire a with labor and on, on, on arms debate in marching. they and they, they targets were very much in the 9th of april, walk in honda and han, as the song said that after time on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the same in america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change and surprised the people his id were unarmed, anom survey hymns, women and children families out a demand in civil rights and the compressor h. i for this attack to happen. i guess it was, of course, i don't 2nd bloody sunday because in the 920 but he's on did well, i'm british to talking hard towards remainder of those days and that the, the war was still continuing it by the british goblins,

the british army in barre yeah, the 1st one, when churchill saw black and tans fired into into a gigantic football stadium. but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regiment, the 2nd bars johnson, the prime minister has said previously that as regards who should take responsibility for it, there would be quotes, there would be a storm of utter fury if 4 men would charge for killings. while the i r a gets away with it. when of course there are a lot of, i re, men and women should have long periods of time in jail. thousands of them a long cation english present, and irish print across words. a republicans were actually connected in jails, some of men on by it skeptical grounds, unforced, compassion and torture on all the rest of the go, the legacy off the british control, and iran is so the, the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died running sunday,

the 13 on the day and one followed after that nobody has been found guilty of that . it is by clear from the wintry tribunal. first of all, it was a total arse, a on and things could have been sorted. i thought what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convict soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that aggression this come iraqi foundation shake. well, of course, following what is of the nuremberg though? no excuse for any kind of tri city. are you going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank gets. and he had been in cyprus in bahrain, in the number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence movement that he's alive. we invite him on, on the show, he was commodity one parent also involved in valley murphy, 9071. when of course, frank kitchen was the, aren't you tired to all of us?

not only all the shoot to kill policy which retired, i'm going to sunday, and by the marquee, and other parts of the north, when brain, which in the end of the collision, it were used to the loyalist forces in collusion with the armed forces, u d r. and you're, you see to care motors on the national paper, tor kitchen series, as he put in the big if may, which in the line of the strategy that we owed by the irish you graduate this day. and it is remarkable that the high he had never been held or are all the atrocities of catered on the i'm shop that he give and as you say, and not only in iron but around the word where he debated and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murdered people to try and put down any objections to print in whatever content. maybe i went over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but disgraceful miss c. i a boss general. the trends that he read. frank kitchens

book, when they're trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq, what does it make you feel that eventually bloody sunday and somehow connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east to west asia? in the past few years, well it, it just that colonial or on the domination that britain has tried to across the word, the empire, a story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold on to as many or is untested osman. whether be based happening goblins to eat, to replace others. they partitioning, accomplished in order to divide and conquer. they are whether as understand and iron or the partition in the country after the british on the 1920 that jackie then finish up on the c. m strategy on the same idea. it was some say written has are not and learn what a one thing that has donated continued to do. got it done at those times. i'm right

to read is colonial, ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels of the good friday agreement put a gotten behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid? south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the clues of behavior, according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which was only released in the past few days when they get quite clear and just wants to predict government. i've been involved in a, in know, 50 years from the early civil rights come p. m. i took part in the 1st civil rights march from california. and i was lucky if you look up a woman one boat, right to house and right to a jo, a on the british government on storm. and at that time couldn't deliver no simple demand. because to give people, race will stay in the country. and they would live for jobs and stay on the work

number, the union vote in, in the years to come. so they had the whole collusion issue has been part and parcel of how the british controlled ireland and unable to this day. and there, of course, the most recent course now must mon clearly stand that there was collusion in the borders at collusion directed by the british government collision implemented by the or u. c. u d r i. and on special ranch, the importation office, as african americans by british agents. i think that a tang whenever the south african regime was come to an end and were the at the british were re army, the loyalist here. i'm most of the martyrs that happened on time where borders catered may, who was weapons, but in from south africa. well, i mean, it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained way it works and the way it operates, it will change significantly. what about to jeremy corbin actually i mean some say

that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow stilling because of a british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security services reprisal today. yeah, i think there's also that that fear within the mind, but i didn't know jeremy i went on and john dawn and others with paul rose was one of the key players at the time of the civil rights champion and even jim gun. and he come to darian id, spoke in relation to re, to find the wrongs that robin age, the william whitelaw with a check understand that pro dormant went and he brought an end to storm windows upon stone. it no longer armed or something assembly because they couldn't manage the at the proper control apart and, and they get the special powers at the austrian to get it the,

the sure to get it on the, in the just the internment. no, rand doctor with a go ahead from the british government, introduced determined which again, infected winds on the national people and turn people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any which were of course you have to remember dusted. it was who i re, in operation no ready, sunday, and others thought i would became recruitment agents for the ira because the, i want the british government were doing and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement and my 5 are allowed to operate freely with the b s. and i, i'm going to ask about joe biden. he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes obviously britain one's perspective trade deal with united it. do you think bloody sunday is a factor in joe biden? csm actions towards his nato ally, britain. well, i, i don't know the details. i was he and went to wayne was thinking isn't,

but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players business and want to keep there and bring about the good friday agreement. and i think right, of course i, america, there is the good 12 support or the national cause because they know what britain infected i and over the years debate and, and others know that like the kennedys that actually had to, i'm away from i'm looking for walk because the ash and of the really common in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and plant in what a good friday agreement and in the political dimension of i can move and things forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if he interfere with the good for a raymond, that the you, when we know did agreement between britain on america and so that's of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and the labor i think i'm rightly with make sure that the carrier to control to make sure that the api,

the good friday agreement is our top purpose and not to damage in any way whatsoever. but remember, the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented. we need to see if fully implemented and again know your talk on year after the great fabian with the same and we still haven't got the full implementation of the k for him. and that's up to both the british. i'm the irish government to make sure as guarantors that they carry that out, because we do have the right to hold on. irish unity and that's been held back by the brenda many secretary stanford the present time. he will give that referendum when i received it in for the people and all that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement it has never been adopted fronting. well, i thank you. i do, after the break, and other ne donation atrocity, we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back 1999 jesuit priest masika in el salvador. all the same. all coming up about to have going underground

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ah, welcome back 100 years ago today. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations, we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government and made increased u. s. influence in the region, one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 1989. now, $33.00, as on the salvadoran supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened after an hour returned to amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies. department professor terry lynn call. thank you so much professor for coming on in part one, we talked about the 50th anniversary of matthew k killing in ireland known as

bloody sunday and the attempt for justice. why is all, salvador, open this criminal investigation into events in 1989? when, of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think reagan actually diff, a fund in the you, the salvador military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk wides along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of elma, so tay, which is the worst mask her in a latin american contemporary history. they had their uniforms on. now, that's really important because why i opened the jazz, what case? the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military. therefore, is the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened,

it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians or president alfredo christianity, who was president of the arena party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who was quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged. and i very much doubt we will see any salvador and military charge and if they are, they will be very low level. if this case precedes forward i own own, on whether it actually proceeds or oversee. the president denies that there is anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness, it trials in spain. you expect to be an expert witness in this one. i do not. i think that the spanish have all the evidence they need. they particularly have some

of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the urena party who i have particularly present in christianity. it was just revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts for a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually a way to pressure the rain a party, which the bu kelly government would like to see a disappear i should just quickly say though, next president christiane. he has already denied involvement in the killing and killing the brace, the investigation. i mean, i should the investigation do, have you ever felt this that it should, it should talk at fort benning in georgia, where i understand the alleged killers were all trained the school of the americas . well, you can't really do that under salvador and law are under command responsibility

law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military re and the highest commander was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? that's really the the issue that was in the spanish case. he was an, an indicted co conspirator. in the spanish case, it is very clear to me and this makes salvatore in law different than spanish law that president christianity knew about this mask the mask or the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also, in was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known, and failed to prevent this, or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact,

culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of, of military, even though he didn't really control the military at the time. well, he denies wrong doing and also anything from lee pandora papers indicating the alleged legality. let's just go to l, missouri rather just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of the you in about. and of course mrs. thatcher was a friend of general finishes. what happened in mil mazata in 1981 in 1981, the salvador military, i pushed large part by the united states. i went into areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location. i was a gorilla that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied

their territory. now, what happened in the so day, which is, as i said, the largest massacre that no of in latin america in contemporary period is the, the uh, la cottle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military, which was formed under, i would say u. s. toodle edge, it was not trained and in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed, the guerrillas had left the area cuz they had great deal of forewarning that this was coming. but in the town of oma, so they, there was a story that the people in elma so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma so much more than the actual population of the city of the vill. it's a little village. and there were about

a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza, and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again at dawn. they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st, they told the women that they were taking the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women. and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young youth. so

more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so tay, what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1902 or there was only enough money to take up that one of the sites where a 124 children and all of these were babies they were very young, are dug up. and i had the sentences of re purported and of, and the children being hang, do you know where we've had to for the national security advisors on this show? we had right, elliot abrams on he was the assistant secretary of state at the time. and he is subsequently been the special representative of the united states to iran and to venezuela, of course, many allegations about us policy and venezuela. in recent times he says that the

actually, the numbers do not tally at all of the for a start. the u. s. military people like general galvan layton major commander 7th, wanda, would never counter torture. this is more generally there. and as for l mazata, there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people though. well, he's using a line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied the any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 1992 forensic dig, was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were beheaded in the soccer field,

and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed and what was called the convent. they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear, they were massacred by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united stage. those who killed them where the outlaw cancel. there is no doubt of us this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador. is that you cannot no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna,

the identities of many of the children so that they are very small caskets can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvadoran military says that this was a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot of evidence say, okay, well reagan's assistant secretary said thomas and said no evidence to confirm government forces actually systematically, most good civilians, me later a college i like want to say that he later wrote in a bed and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials. but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry,

he had testified in the u. s. congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these p all have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean, you're on the command, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of vanguard, diarrhea, and god, perhaps of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are a force is that still one to oppose your view? that what was done was wrong given that you abraham. so, you know, in the night he said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the dud course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy of the time under him was, ah, the arming and so salvador and military and this is a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of

civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south a massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres in el salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big, massive purse there in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there, because that's where all the kids, not all but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back at the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and desk lot killings, but what was happening at the same time. and elliot abrams was fully aware of this . he's just not telling the truth. and i want to say something about him, he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that there are another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him.