it is on moscow that they will help us to do that. and that if you need spare parts and other things for some medical been there will help us with them from eastern european central european country is not. this is, it is quite ridiculous families because what we actually need is that we want to both russia, united states to participate in building in the us domestic defense manufacturing capability for which we have outlined a very ambitious program as to my own understanding. sorry, we're right out of time here on the program. i just want to talk with yeah, go ahead just for her that i understand that i was much more cooperative in this regard than the united states. well, thank you very much for both. joining us on the program. that's conwell sybil, former indian foreign secretary and lia night, as chris and topple is former greek ambassador. thank you both. thank you. more news coming your way and just about 30 minutes.

ah, [000:00:00;00] ah . damn african retention your what you going on the ground, the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look despite nature nation and he you censorship. but until then, we'll be showing some of your favorite shows of the season so far coming up with his show, while bar a strong to new fight for his political life. this weekend may have opposed charging those involved, the world is but hours away from commemorating a 10 minute massacre. bloody sunday, we investigate. and after the vatican last week beatified priests slaughtered by

alleged so called us back to death squads in el salvador. what should we expect from the country supreme court, opening up a new investigation into the murders of jesuits clerics that inspired st. oscar romero himself, martin 45 years ago. we speak to an expert witness in the case dollars or more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing unarmed civilians in ulster, no one is ever faced trial and bras. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining me now from cook's down northern ireland is shown faint and p for middle sta. francie malloy? thanks so much for coming back. gone. i mean, people were waiting this week for su grey in a inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about that. tell me and remind us

about what bloody bloody sunday was. and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and official after the atrocity. well, thank you very much for the invitation to come on. a really sunday was a change in of ash political saying it was a massive change because for the 1st time and the charade champion british soldiers had, i went in and opened fire a. it was lay round on, on, on arm civilian marching. they and they, at they tie this were very much in the $98.00 walk in the honda han as the song said that after time. but on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the same in america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change and surprised the people his id were unarmed, unarmed civilians, women and children families out a demand in civil rights under compressor

h. i for this attack to happen. i guess it was of course i don't 2nd bloody sunday because and then i can credit a but he's on did well, i'm british total compar cohart and towards remainder of those days. and that the, the war was still continuing. a bay, the british goblins, the british army in and during. yeah, the 1st one when churches, black and tans fired into, into a, a football stadium. but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regiment. the 2nd boss johnson, the prime minister, has said previously that as regards who should take responsibility for it, there would be quotes, there would be a storm of fury. the foreman would charge for killings while the i r a gets away with it. when of course, there are a lot of, i re, men and women serve long periods of time in jail. thousands of them, a long cation english present, and irish print, and across word, a reporting and directly connected in jails, some of them, and on by it scaffold graham's a on force,

compassion to torture on all the rest of the go, the legacy off the british control and iran is so the, the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died running sunday, the 13 on the day on one followed after. and nobody has been found guilty of that. if i clear from the witchery tribunal, 1st of all, it was a told her ours, and things could have been sorted. i that what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convict soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that aggression this come, iraqi bombarded shake. well, of course, following orders of the nuremberg no, no excuse for any kind of atrocity, you're going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank gets. and he has been in cyprus in bahrain, in the number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence

movement that he's alive. we invite him on, on the show, he was commodity one parent also involved in a valley move united, 71. when of course, frank kitchen was the architect of all of us, not only of the shoot to kill policy which retired, i'm going to sunday, and by the marquee, and other parts of the north brain, which in the end of the collision, it were used. the loyalist forces in collusion with the force of beauty are on the or you see to carry orders on the national table or kitchen series as he put in the big if may, which in light of the strategy that we owed by the are issued regimen mistake and it is remarkable that the high he had never been held or are all the atrocities catered on the i'm shop that he give and as you say, and not only in iron but around the word where he debated and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murdered people to try and put down any

objections to print in whatever comp it maybe when over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but disgraceful miss. c. i a boss general. the trends that he read. frank kitchens book when the trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq, what does it make you feel that eventually bloody sunday and somehow connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east to west asia. in the past few years, well it, it just that colonial or on the domination that britain has tried to across the world, the empire a story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold on to as many or is untested osman. whether it be based happening goblins to eat, to replace others. they partitioning countries in order to divide and conquer. they all whether as understand and ireland or the partition in the country after the british on the up 1920,

that jackie then finish up on the c m strategy on the same idea. it was some say written has are not and learn what a one thing that has daunted a continued do. got it done at those times. i'm right to read is colonial. ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels of the good friday agreement put a gotten behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid? south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the clues of behavior, according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which was only releasing the bus few days. when i get quite clear and just want to predict government, i've been involved in a, in know the years from the early civil rights come p. m. i took part in the

personal rights, marsh glided on young. and i was like a bit to look up a woman, one boat, right to house and right to jo, a on the british government on storm and at that time couldn't deliver no simple demand. because to give people race will stay in the country and they would look for jobs and stay under that number. they had the union vote in the years to come. so they had the whole collision issue has been part and parcel of the british controlled island. and unable to this day, and there of course, most recent, of course, almost one clearly stint that it was collusion in the mortars that collusion directed by the british government collision implemented by the or u. c. u d r i. and on special ranch, the importation office, as african americans by british agents. i think that a tang whenever the south african regime was come to an end and were the at the british were re army loyalist here. i'm most of them orders that happened on time

where borders changed by who was weapons brought in from south africa. well, i mean, it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained way it works and the way it operates will change significantly. what about to jeremy corbin actually i mean some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow stilling because of a british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security services reprisal today. yeah, i think there's also that fear within them on but it no jeremy i went on and john don and others within. they were going to pull rows with all the key players at the time of the civil rights champion and even jim gun. and he come to darian id, spoke invitation to ratify the wrongs and robin age. the way them whitelaw with a check understand that pro dormant went and he brought an end to storm apartment,

stoned. it no longer up arm to something assembly because they couldn't manage the proper control of power and, and they get it the, the special powers actually also want to get it the, the sure to get it on the integers to internment. no ramp, often with the go ahead from the british government introduced determine which again inflicted wounds on the national people and turn people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any was were. and of course, you have to remember that it was who i re, in operation no really sunday and others got out would became recruitment agents for the ira. because the, at what the british government were doing and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement in my 5 are allowed to operate freely with the b s. and i, i'm going to ask about job ivy. he's famously some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes obviously,

britain one's perspective trade deal with united states. do you think bloody sunday as a factor in jo biden's actions towards his nato ally, britain? well, i, i don't know the details. i was, he aaron went away. he was thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players business. what a key player and bring about the good friday agreement. and i think right, of course i, america, there is the good child support or the nation is cause because they know what britain and protected i and over the years debate and, and others know that like the kennedys that actually had to, i'm away from i'm looking for walk, because the ashes of the video goblin in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and play as planned in waterbury for a agreement. and in the political dimension of i can move and things look forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if he interfere with the good for a reason that the you,

when we know trade agreement between britain on the market. and so that's a very strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's a labor i think i'm rightly work in make sure that the carrier to control make sure that the act, the good friday agreement is our top purpose and not to damage in any way whatsoever. but remember, the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented. we need to see if fully implemented and again, no, you are talking years after the great for being with the same and we still haven't got the full implementation of the k for him. and that's up to both the british and the irish government to make sure as guarantors that they carry that out. because we do have the right to hold on irish unity and that's been held back by the brandy many secretary stanford the present time. he will give that referendum when i resumed it in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been adopted. france will. i thank you. thank you. after the break and other ne donation atrocity,

we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back 989. just would priest masika in el salvador. all the civil coming up about to have going underground ah ah ah, welcome back 100 years ago to day. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations, we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government m a. the increase us entrance in the region,

one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 989. now, $33.00, as on the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened. after a now overturned amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies department. professor terry lynn call. thank you so much, professor for coming on. in part, when we talked about the 50th anniversary of matthew k killing in ireland, known as bloody sunday in the attempt for justice. why is all, salvador open this criminal investigation into events in 1989? when of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think reagan actually diff, a fund in the you, the salvador and military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk

wides along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of alice, so tay, which is the worst massacre in our latin american contemporary history. they have their uniforms on. now, that's really important because we open the jazz. what case? the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military. therefore, the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened, it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians for president alfredo christiania, who was president of the arena party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who was quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're

seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged. and i very much doubt we will see any salvadoran military charge if they are, they will be very low level if this case proceeds forward i on the, on, on whether it actually proceeds or was he, the president denies the that there is anything being cooked here you testified as an expert witness trials in spain, you expect to be an expert witness in this one. i do not. i think that the spanish have all the evidence they need. they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the arena party who i have particularly present in christianity. it was just recently revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts. a lot of quite

a lot of money stashed away, and i think this is actually a way to pressure the rain a party which the bouquet government would like to see a disappear. i should just quickly say though, thanks president christiane. he has already denied involvement in the killing, killing the brace, the investigation. i mean, i should the investigation you have you ever felt this that it should, it should target fort benning, in georgia, where i understand the alleged killers were all trained the school of the americas . well, you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military, very, and the highest commander was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order if that's really the the issue that was in the spanish case. he was an uninvited co conspirator. in the spanish case, it is very clear to me,

and this makes salvatore in law different than spanish law that president christianity knew about this mask. the massacre of the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also in, was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known, and failed to prevent this, or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact, culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of the military, even though he didn't really control the military it, well, he denies wrong doing and also anything from li, pandora papers indicating the alleged legality. let's just go drill, missouri g rather just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of

children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in about an hour. cuz mrs. thatcher was a friend of general finishes. what happened in l. mazata? a in 1981 in 1981, the salvadoran military. i pushed large part by the united states. i went in 2 areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location, was a gorilla. and that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied their territory. now what happened in the so day, which is, as i said, the largest massacre that no of in latin america in contemporary period is the atlas cattle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military, which was formed under, i would say u. s. to lodge. it was not trained,

and in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed, the guerrillas had left the area cuz they had a great deal of forewarning that this was coming. but in the town of elm so day there was a story that the people in elm so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma, so it's a much more than the actual population of the city of the ville. it's a little village and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down on that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza and then very strangely,

this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes. that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again. at dawn, they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st. they told the women that they were taking the men to for safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people, of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so tay, what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1092. or there

was only enough money to take up that $1.00 of the sites where a $124.00 children and all of these were babies. they were very young, are dug up. amanda sentences of rape reported and of, and the children being hang, do you know where we've had to evolve a national security advisers on this show? we write, elliot abrams on he was the assistant secretary of state at the time. and he is subsequently being the special representative of the united states to iran and to venezuela, of course, many allegations about us policy and venezuela. in recent times he says that the actually, the numbers do not tally at all of the for a start. the u. s. military people like general galvan later, major commander 7th, dwanda would never counter torture. this is more generally there. and as for l mazata,

there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people though. well, he's using the line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 1992 forensic dig, was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were be headed in the soccer field, and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed in what was called the convent. they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear,

they were massacred by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united states, those who killed them where the uh, la consul, there is no doubt of us this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador is that you can on no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna, the identities of many of the children so that they are very small caskets can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvadoran military says that this was

a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot ought of as it is a ok. well reagan's is this is hector saint thomas. and the said no evidence to confirm government voice is actually systematically mascot civilians. are we layer of commons? i like want to say that he later wrote not bad and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials. but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry, he had testified in the u. s. congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean, you're on a command, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of a vanguard to re, of, and god,

perhaps of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are forces that still want to oppose your view. that what was done was wrong given that abraham. so, you know, in the night he said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the dud course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy at the time under him was the arming. and so salvador and military and this is a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south a massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres and all salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big, massive purse there in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because

if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there, because that's where all the kid not all but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and desk. what killings but what was happening at the same time? and elliot abrams was fully aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him, he did line a congress. he was convicted of that and he may be in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there, that's an error here. i was surprised to find that. i never knew that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. and i

have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like oil and it could be export it. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq or was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, do you think we would be invaded? so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal. wow. professor dairyland go. thank you. that's it for one of your favorite shows of this season. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch, why all of social media, if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch, will going underground episodes on odyssey and it all to you to come see very soon

with ah, so with germany is involved in the work of bio weapons labs in ukraine together with its u. s. allies. that's the latest revelation coming from moscow on the west. legend biological military activities in the region with russian troops have taken full control over mario pals. urban sections with more than a 1000 ukrainian soldiers laying down their arms. civilians are beginning to leave their shelter and receive aid for following weeks of your fight. to get away with you, little boy investigation claims. the ukrainian security service used guantanamo