opening up a new investigation into the murders of jesuits clerics that inspired st. oscar romero himself mounted 45 years ago. we speak to an expert witness in the case. those are more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing on civilians. and also no one has ever faced trial and bras. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in the atrocities. joining me from cook's town, not an island kitchen. fan. m p for middle sta. francie malloy? thanks so much for coming back on. i mean, people were waiting this week for sue gray in an inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about. tell me and remind us about what blood they bloody sunday was and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and officials after the atrocity. well, thank you very much for the invitation to come on. a really sunday was change in

our parish political saying it was a massive change because for the 1st time and the celebration pm, british soldiers had i went in and opened fire a with lay round on, on, on arm civilian marching. they and they, they targets were very much and i don't even walk in the honda on as the song said that after time on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the same in america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change. and surprised the people is id were on armed anom survey, hymns, women and children families out a demand in civil rights under compressor, right? i have for this attack to happen. i guess it was of course i don't 2nd brody sunday because and then i can put it on did well, i'm british to talking hard and remainder of those days and that the,

the was still continuing. a bay the british goblins, the british army in barre. yeah, the 1st one when churches, black and tans fired into into a, a football stadium. but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regiment. the 2nd bar, as johnson, the prime minister has said previously, that as regards who should take responsibility for it, there would be quotes, there would be a storm of utter fury. if 4 men would charge for killings while the i r a gets away with it. when of course, there are a lot of, i re, men and women shirt long periods of time in jail. thousands of them a long cation english present, and irish print, and across word, a reporting and directly connected in jails. some of them and on by it scaffold graham's unforced compassion to torture on all the rest of the go, the legacy off the british control. and iran is so the, the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday,

whenever 14 people died running sunday, the 13 on the day on one followed after that nobody has been found guilty of that. it is by clear from the witchery tribunal, 1st of all, it was a told her arse, a on and things could have been sorted. i that what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convict soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that aggression this come, iraqi bombarded shake. well, of course, falling out is of the nuremberg, though, no excuse for any kind of atrocity. you're going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank kits. and he had been in cyprus in bahrain, in a number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence movement that he's alive, we invite him on, on the show, he was commodity one parent also involved in valley murphy, 9071. when of course,

frank kitchen was the architect of all of us, not only all the shoot to kill policy which retired on buddy sunday, and by the marquee and other parts of the north brain, which in the end of the collision, it were used. the loyalist forces in collision with the force of beauty are on the or you see to care motors on the national table kitchen series as he put in the big if may, which in the line of the strategy that we owed by the irish you'd regimen mistake and it is remarkable that the high he had never been held or are all the atrocities catered on the i'm sample that he give and as you say, and not only in iron but around the word where he debated and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murder people to try and on down any objections to pretty early in whatever content. maybe i went over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago,

but disgraceful m a. c. i a boss general. the trends that he read. frank kitchens book when the trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq, what does it make you feel that eventually bloody sunday and somehow connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east or west asia. in the past few years, when it just as colonial, are on the domination that britain has tried to you across the world, the empire a story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold on to as many areas and destiny osman, whether it be based happening goblins to eat, to replace others. they partitioning countries in order to divide and conquer. they all whether as understand and iron or the partition in the country after the british on the 1920 that jackie dan shop follow the cm strategy on the same idea. it was some say written has are not allowed, but one thing that has done it

a continued to do, got it done at those times. i'm right to read is colonial. ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels that the good friday agreement put a cotton behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid? south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the clues of behavior, according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which was only released in the bus few days when they get quite clear and just want to predict government. i've been involved in a, in know, 50 years from the early civil rights campaign. i took part in the 1st civil rights march from california. and i was id be looking for a woman, one boat rate to host and right to a jo, a on the british government on storm and at that time couldn't deliver no simple

demand. because to give people race will stay in the country and they would live for jobs and stay on the work number. they had union vote in the years to come. so they had the whole collusion issue has been part and parcel of the british controlled island. and unable to this day, and there of course, the most recent course, norma's mon, clearly spent that was collusion in the mortars that collusion directed by the british government collision, implemented by the or u. c. u d r i. and on special ranch, the importation office, as african americans by british agents. i think that a tang whenever the south african regime was come to an end a on were the at the british were re army, the loyalist here. i, most of the murders that happened that time, where borders catered bay who was weapons brought in from south africa. well, i mean, it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained way it works and the way it operates will change significantly. what about to jeremy corbin actually i mean

some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow still lingers of british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security services reprisal today. yeah, i think there's also that fear within them on but it no jeremy i went on and john don and others within their group. paul rose was one of the key players at the time of the civil rights champion and even jim gun. and he come to darian id, spoke in relation to rate upon the wrongs robin age, the way them whitelaw with a check understand that pro dormant went and he brought an end to storm with our department stoned. it no longer up arm to simply an assembly because they couldn't manage the at the proper control apart and,

and they get it the special powers actually also want to get it they, they should together on the integers to internment. no, rand doctor, with the go ahead from the british government, introduce determine which, again, infected winds on the national staple, and turn people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any which were . and of course, you have to remember that it was who i re, in operation no bloody sunday, and others gone. i would became recruited agents for the ira because the, at what the british government were doing and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement in my 5 are allowed to operate freely with the b s. and i, i'm going to ask about joe biden. he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes, obviously, britain once it prospected trade deal with united it, do you think bloody sunday as a factor in joe biden, some actions towards his nato ally, britain. well, i,

i don't know the details. i was, he, aaron went away. he was thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players business with a key player and bring about the good friday agreement. and i think right, of course i, america, there is the good 12 support or the nation is cause because they know what britain infected i and over the years debate and, and others know that like the kennedys that actually had to i'm a richmond looking for walk because of the ashes of the really goblin in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and play a plant in what a good for every month. and in the political dimension of i can move and things forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if he interfere with the good for a raymond, that the you, when we know did agreement between britain on the market. and so that's of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's a labor i think i'm right to work and make sure that they carry out on control and

make sure that they act be a good friend. agreement is our top purpose and not to damage in any way whatsoever . but remember, the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented. we need to see if fully implemented. and again, no, you are talking here after the great fabian with the same and we still haven't got the full implementation of the good for him. and that's up to both the british and the irish government to make sure as guarantors that they carry that out. because we do have the right to hold on irish unity and that's been held back by the brand it many secretary stanford the present time. it will give that referendum when i received it in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been, they've got it friends. well, i thank you. thank you. after the break, another ne donation atrocity, we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back $989.00 jesuit priest masika in el salvador,

all the smoke and we have about to have going underground. ah ah i christina, it isn't the day with a with

ah, welcome back 100 years ago to day. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations, we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government m a. the increase us entrance in the region, one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 989. now, $33.00, as on the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened. after a now overturned amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies department. professor terry lynn call. thank you so much,

professor for coming on. in part, when we talked about the 50th anniversary of matthew k killing in ireland, known as bloody sunday in the attempt for justice. why is all, salvador open this criminal investigation into events in 1989? when of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think reagan actually diff, a fund in the you, the salvador and military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk wides along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of elma, so tay, which is the worst massacre in our latin american contemporary history. they have their uniforms on. now, that's really important because we opened the jesuit case. the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military.

therefore, the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened, it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians are present in alfredo christiania, who was president of the arraignment party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who was quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged. and i very much doubt we will see any salvadoran military charge if they are, they will be very low level if this case proceeds forward i own own on whether it actually proceeds or oversee. the president denies the that there is anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness trials in spain, you expect to be an expert witness in this one. i do not. i think that the spanish

have all the evidence they need. they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the arena party who i have particularly president christianity. it was just resistors revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts. a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually a way to pressure the reign of party, which the bu keller government would like to see a disappear, i should just quickly say though, thanks, president christiane. he has already denied involvement in the killing, killing the brace, the investigation. i mean, i should the investigation you have you ever felt this that it should, it should target fort benning, in georgia, where i understand the alleged killers were all trained the school of the americas

. well, you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military, very, and the highest commander was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? that's really the the issue that was in the spanish case. he was an, an indicted co conspirator. in the spanish case, it is very clear to me and this makes salvatore in law different than spanish law that president christianity knew about this mask the. the massacre of the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also, in was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known and failed to prevent this or punish those who

carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact, culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of the military, even though he didn't really control the military, it's well, he denies wrong doing and also anything from li, pandora papers indicating the alleged legality. and i was just go to wilma, so do you better just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in about advocacy. mrs . thatcher was a friend of general finishes. what happened in l. mazata a in 1981 in 1981, the salvadoran military. i pushed large part by the united states. i went in 2 areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location, was

a gorilla. and that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied their territory. now what happened and on the so day, which is as i said, the largest mass kurt, that no of in latin america in contemporary period is that the atlas cattle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military which was formed under, i would say u. s to legit was not trained in, in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits . but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed, the guerrillas had left the area because they had a great deal of forewarning that this was coming. but in the town of elm so day there was a story that the people in elm so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma, so it's a much more than the actual population of the city of the ville. it's

a little village and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down on that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes. that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again. at dawn, they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st. they told the women that they were taking the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000

people, of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so tay, what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1092. or there was only enough money to dig up that one of the sites where a 124 children and all of these were babies they were very young, are dug up and i'm the sentences of rape reported and of and the children being hang, do you know, well, we've had to over national security advisors on this show we had right, elliot abrams on he was the assistant secretary of state at the time. and he is subsequently been the special representative of the united states to iran

and to venezuela. of course many allegations about us policy of venezuela. in recent times he says that the actually the numbers do not tally at all of the for a start. the u. s. military, people like general galvan layton major commander, 7 want it would never counter torture. this is more, more generally there. and as for l mazata, there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people though. well, he's using a line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 1992 forensic dig was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them,

some were be headed in the soccer field, and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed in what was called the convent. they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear, they were massacred by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united stage. those who killed him where the outlaw cancel. there is no doubt of us this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador. is that you cannot no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names,

we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna, the identities of many of the children so that they are very small caskets can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvadoran military says that this was a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot ought of, as it is a ok. well, regan's assistant secretary said thomas anders had no evidence to confirm government voices actually systematically, mascot civilians are we later of powers? i like want to say that he later wrote not bad and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials. but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry,

he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry, he had testified in the us congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean, you're on a commitment, you're in a committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of a vanguard to re, of, and god, perhaps of regime change a different country. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are forces that still want to oppose your view. that what was done was wrong given that abraham. so, you know, in the night he said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the dud course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy of the time under him was the arming. and so

salvador and military and this is a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south a massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres and all salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big, massive purse. they're in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there. because that's where all the kids, not all, but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back at the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and death squad killings. but what was happening at the same time? and elliot abrams was fully aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him

. he did line a congress, he was convicted of that and he may be in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there, that's an error here. i was surprised. i never knew that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. and i have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like oil and it could be export it. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq or was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, do you think we would be invaded? so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal. wow. professor

dairyland go. thank you. that's it for one of your favorite shows of this season. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch with all of social media if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch, will going underground episodes on all to see. and it auto come see very soon with united a news and it's tax on other countries. we have a responsibility for the whole world. and we need to make room for the rest. because without us, there will be k i d l look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people.

a robot must obey the orders given by human beings accept where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. the point obviously is to create a truck rather than fear a job with artificial intelligence. real, somebody with obama protective own existence with you know, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms. race is often very dramatic. that development only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully,

very difficult time. time to sit down and talk with germany is involved in the work of bio weapons labs and ukraine together with its u. s. ally, that's the latest revelation coming from moscow on the west. legend, biological military activities in the region with russian troops have taken full control over variables urban sections with more than a 1000 ukrainian soldiers laying down their arms. civilians are beginning to leave their shelter, send receive 8 following weeks. if your flight a user with an investigation claims the ukrainian security service use guantanamo style torture techniques on political opponents of president vladimir lensky. you speak

to the author behind the prob.