ah, ah, a with damn african or cancer your what you going on the ground, the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look despite nature nation and he you censorship. but until then, we'll be showing some of your favorite shows of the season so far coming up with his show, while bar a strong to new fight for his political life. this weekend may have opposed charging those involved, the world is but hours away from commemorating a 10 minute massacre. bloody sunday, we investigate. and after the vatican last week,

beatified as priests slaughtered by alleged so called us back to death squads in el salvador. what should we expect from the country supreme court, opening up a new investigation into the murders of jesuits clerics that inspired st. oscar romero himself, martin 45 years ago. we speak to an expert witness in the case dollars or more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing unarmed civilians in ulster, no one has ever faced trial and bras. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining me now from cook's down, northern ireland is soon found m p for middle sta. francie malloy. thanks so much. rach event coming back. gone. i mean, people were waiting this week for su grey in a inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about that tell me and remind us

about what bloody sunday was and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and officials off to the atrocity. well, thank you very much for the invitation to come on. a really sunday was changing of parish. political saying it was a massive change because for the 1st time and the celebration pm, british soldiers had i key, went in and opened fire a with lay round on on, on arm said they didn't marching. they on the at they tie dish, we're very much in the $98.00 walk in the honda on as the song said that after time . but on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the sam america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change and appraised to people is id were unarmed on i'm survey hymns, women and children families out a demand in civil rights under compressor h. i for this impact to happen. i guess it was, of course,

i don't 2nd bloody sunday because in the 920 but he's on did well, i'm british to talking hard towards remainder of those days and that the, the war was still continuing. a bay, the british government, the british army in dairy. yeah, the 1st one when churches are black and tans fired into into a, a football stadium. but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regiment. the 2nd boss johnson, the prime minister, has said previous me that as regards who should take responsibility for it, there would be quotes, there would be a storm of fury. the foreman would charge for killings while the i r a gets away with it. when of course, there are a lot of, i re, men and women should have long periods of time in jail. thousands of them a long cation english present, and irish prints on a cross word. a republicans were actually connected in jails. some of men on by it skeptical grounds, a on force compassion and torture on all the rest of the go,

the legacy off the british control. and iran is so the, the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died running sunday, the 13 on the day on one followed after. and nobody has been found guilty of that. if i clear from the witchery tribunal, 1st of all, it was a told her ours, a on and things could have been sorted. i that what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convict soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that aggression this come, iraqi bombarded shake. well, of course, following orders of the nuremberg though, no excuse for any kind of atrocity, you're going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank gets. and he had been in cyprus in bahrain, in the number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence

movement that he's alive, we invite him on, on the show, he was commodity one parent also involved in valley murphy, 9071. when of course, frank kitchen was the architect of all of us, not only all the shoot to kill policy which retired on buddy sunday, and by the marquee and other parts of the north brain were to the end of the collision. they were used to the loyalist forces in collision with the armed forces, u d r. and you're, you see to care motors on the national paper, tow kitchen series, as he put in the big if may, which in the night of they strategy that out by the are issued regiment, the state. and it is remarkable that the high he had never been held or are all the atrocities of catered on the i'm sample that he give. and as you say, are not only in iron, but around the word where he debated and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murder people to try and put down any

objections to pretty early in whatever compet maybe went over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but disgraced former c. i a boss general. the trends that he read. frank kitchens book when they're trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq. what does it make you feel that eventually bloody sundance, i'm connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east or west asia in the past few years? well, it, it just that colonial or on the domination that britain has tried to across the world, the empire story to mention what they say instead of trying to hold on to as many or is untested osman, whether be based happening goblins to eat, to replace others they partitioning countries in order to divide and conquer. they all, whether as understand and iron or the partition in the country after the british on

the 1920 that jackie then finish up on the c m strategy on the same idea. it was some say, britain has are not and learn what a one thing that has on it a continued to do. got it done at those times. i'm right to read is colonial. ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels of the good friday agreement put a gotten behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid? south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the clues of behavior, according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which was only released in the bus few days when they get quite clear and just want to predict government. i've been involved in a, in know, 50 years from the early civil rights campaign. i took part in the 1st civil rights

march from california. and i was id be if you look up a woman one boat, the right to house. and right to jo ann, the british government on storm and at that time couldn't deliver no simple demand because to give people race will stay in the country and they would live for jobs and stay on the work number. they had union vote in the years to come, so they had the whole collusion issue has been part and parcel of how the british controlled ireland and unable to this day. and there, of course, the most recent course, almost one clearly stint that it was, collusion in the motors at collision director by the british government collision implemented by the or u. c. u d r i. and on special ranch, the importation office, as african americans by british agents. i think that a tang whenever the south african regime was come to an end and were the at the british were re army, the loyalist here. i'm most of them orders that happened that time. where borders catered may who was weapons brought in from south africa. well, i mean,

it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained way it works and the way it operates, it will change significantly. what about to jeremy corbin actually i mean some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow stilling because of a british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security service reprisal today. yeah, i think there's also that fear within them on but it no jeremy, i went on and john don and others within their group. paul rose with one of the key players at the time of the civil rights champion and even jim gun. and he come to darian id, spoke invitation to ratify the wrongs robin age, the way them whitelaw with a check understand that pro dormant went and he brought an entry storm apartment

stoned. it no longer up armed or something assembly because they couldn't manage the at the proper control apart. and they, if you get it the special powers actually also want to get it. they, they should together on the integers to internment. no ramp, often with the go ahead from the british government introduced determine which again, infected winds on the national staple, and turn people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any which were of course you have to remember that it wasn't array in operation. nobody sunday and others got out would became recruitment agents for the ira because the, at what the british government were doing and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement m, i 5, are allowed to operate freely with the p. s. and i, i'm going to ask about joe biden, he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes obviously,

britain one's perspective trade deal with united. it. do you think bloody sunday is a factor in joe biden? some actions towards his nato ally, britain. well, i, i don't know the details. i was here. i went to a guy who was thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players business with a key player and bring about the good friday agreement. and i think right, of course i, america, there is the good 12 support or the nation is cause because you know, what britain infected i and over the years debate and, and others know that like the kennedys that actually had to, i'm away from i'm looking for walk because of the ash and of the really goblin in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and play a plant in what a buffet agreement and in the political dimension of i can move and things forward . and i think he has made it quite clear that if he interfere with the good for

a raymond, that the you, when we know did agreement between britain on the market actually watch of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's a labor i think i'm rightly work and make sure that they carry out on control to make sure that they act be a good for a agreement, is not compromise and not damage in any way whatsoever. but remember, the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented. we need to see if fully implemented. and again, no, you are talking years after the great fabian with the same and we still haven't got the full implementation of the k for him. and that's up to both the british and the irish government to make sure as guarantors that they carry that out. because we do have the right to hold on irish unity and that's been held back by the brand it many secretary stanford the present time. it will give that referendum on our mission day in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been, they've got it friends. well, i thank you. thank you. after the break and other nato nation atrocity,

we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back 989 jesuit priest massacre in el salvador, all the smoke and we have about 2 of going underground. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic, development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk with

ah, welcome back 100 years ago to day. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations, we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government and made increased u. s. influence in the region. one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 1989. now 33. as on the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened after an hour returned to amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies department. professor terry lynn call. thank you so much, professor for coming on in part one, we talked about the 50th anniversary of mass u. k. killing in ireland, known as bloody sunday, and the attempt for justice. why is all, salvador, open this criminal investigation into events in 1989?

when of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think reagan actually diff, a fund is the you, the salvador and military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at dest squads, along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of elma, so tay, which is the worst mask her in, ah, latin american, contemporary history. they have their uniforms on. now, that's really important because why i opened the jazz, what case? the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military. therefore, is the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened, it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians or president alfredo christianity,

who was president of the arena party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who is quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged. and i very much doubt we will see any salvador and military charge, if they are, they will be very low level. if this case precedes forward i own own, on whether it actually proceeds oversee the president denies that there is anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness trials in spain, you expect to be an expert witness in this one. i do not. i think that the spanish have all the evidence they need. they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the reign of hardy,

who i have particularly president christianity. it was just really revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts for a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually a way to pressure the rain a party which the kelly government would like to see a disappear. i should just quickly say though, thanks. president christiane, he has already denied involvement in the killing, killing the brace, the investigation. i mean, i should the investigation do have you ever felt this that it should, it should target fort benning and georgia where i understand the ledge killers, world trend, the school of the americas. well, you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military area, the highest commander,

was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? that's really the the issue that was in the spanish case. he was an uninvited co conspirator. in the spanish case, it is very clear to me, and this makes salvatore in law different than spanish law that president christianity knew about this mask. the massacre of the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also in, was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known, and failed to prevent this, or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact, culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of, of military, even though he didn't really control the military. it, well,

he denies wrong doing and also anything from the vendor papers indicating the alleged legality. let's just go to wilma z o d u rather just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in about animals. mrs. thatcher was a friend of general finishes. what happened in mil mazata in 1981 in 1981, the salvadoran military. i pushed large part by the united states. i went in 2 areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location. i was a gorilla and then that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied their territory. now, what happened in the so day, which is, as i said, the largest massacre that no of in latin america in contemporary period is uh,

the uh, la cottle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military, which was formed under, i would say u. s to ledge. it was not trained, and in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed, the guerrillas had left the area cuz they had great deal of forewarning that this was coming. but in the town of elm, so they, there was a story that the people in elm so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma, so too much more than the actual population of the city of the vill. it's a little village. and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost

a 1000 people lie down that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza, and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again at dawn. they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st, they told the women that they were taking the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women. and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so tay,

what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1992. or there was only enough money to take up $1.00 of the sites where a $124.00 children. and all of these were babies. they were very young, are dug up, and i had the sentences of re purported and of, and the children being hang, do you know, we've had to over national security advisors on this show? we invite elliot abrams on he was the assistant secretary of state at the time, and he is subsequently being the special representative with united states to iran and to venezuela. of course, many allegations about you as well as the venezuela. in recent times he says that actually the numbers do not tally at all of the

for a start. the u. s. military, people like general galvin later nato commander 7th, wanda, would never come to torture. this is more generally there. and as for l mazata, there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people though. well, he's using the line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 992 forensic dig was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were be headed in the soccer field, and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed in what was called the convent. they were killed and they were buried in

a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear, they were mass heard by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united states, those who killed him where the outlook consul, there is no doubt about this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped. and all, salvador is that you cannot no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna, the identities of many of the children so that they are very small caskets can be

given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvadoran military says that this was a cemetery of the guerrillas. now, none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot ought of, as it is a ok. well, regan's assistant secretary said thomas anders had no evidence to confirm government forces actually systematically, mascot civilians are we later of commons? i like want to say that he later wrote not bad and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials. but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry, he had testified in the u. s. congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze?

because i did notice, i mean, you're on a committee, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of vanguard to re, of, and god, perhaps, of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are forces that still want to oppose your view. that what was done was wrong given that you abraham. so, you know, in the ninety's said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the dud course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy of the time under him was the arming. and so salvador and military and this is a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south a massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not

a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres in all salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big, massive purse there in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there, because that's where all the kid not all but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back at the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and death squad killings. but what was happening? same time. and elliot abrams was fully aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him, he did line a congress. he was convicted of that and he may be in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there, that's an error here. i was surprised. i never knew

that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. and i have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like, well, and it could be exported. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq or was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, you think we would be invaded. so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal, professor dairyland co. thank you. that's it for one of your favorite shows of this season. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch my all social media if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch,

will going underground episodes on odyssey and it all to you to come see very soon ah, ah, this is a section is very easy to make. if you're very good at it. for instance, if you work in the media and you know how to do it, you can very good job and manipulating public opinion. you can hang white as black . you can, you know, totally trust reality and sometimes not even by lying. sometimes just by picking what you want to paper or putting things in a certain order or putting human emotions into one side of the story while not giving a rational analysis of the whole picture. ah a

ah, with .