we expect from the country supreme court opening up a new investigation to the murders of jesuits clerics that inspired st. oscar romero himself mounted 45 years ago. we speak to an expert witness in the case those i'm all coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing unarmed civilians. and also, no one has ever faced trial in bars. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining us from cook's down north and island district fan. m p for middle france malloy. thanks so much. traffic coming back on. i mean, people were waiting this week for sue gray in an inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about. tell me and remind us about what bloody bloody sunday was and the white wash committed by british civil servants and officials after the atrocity was thank you very much for the imitation

home on a really sunday was changing our parish. political scene aid was a massive change of clothes for the 1st time and the seller, a company and british soldiers had, i went in and opened fire a with lay branch on, on, on arm civilian marching. they and they, they targets were very much and then i don't even walk in the honda on as the song said that after time on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the same in america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change and surprised to people is id were on armed on i'm survey hymns, women and children families out a demand in civil rights under campers. all right, i have for this attack to happen. i guess it was, of course, i don't 2nd bloody sunday because and then i can put it on there. well, i'm british to cooper as to what remainder of those days and that the,

the war was still continuing. a bay, the british goblins, the british army in barre. yeah. the 1st one when churches are black and tans fide into into a gated football stadium, but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regiment, the 2nd bar a strong. so the prime minister has said previously that as regards who should take responsibility for it, there would be quotes, there would be a storm of utter fury if 4 men were charged for killings, while the i r a gets away with it. when of course, there are a lot of, i re, men and women should have long periods of time in jail. thousands of them a long cation english present, and irish print on a cross word, a reporting and directly convicted in jails. some of men on by it skeptical grounds, a on force compassion and torture on all the rest of the go, the legacy off the british control. and iran is so the,

the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died running sunday, the 13 on the day on one followed after. and nobody has been found guilty of that. it is very clear from the witchery tribunal. first of all, it was a told her arse, a on and things could have been sorted. i thought i'm, what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convict soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that and russia this come, iraqi bombarded shake. well, of course, falling out is of the nuremberg no, no excuse for any kind of atrocity. are you going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank kits. and he had been in cyprus in bahrain, in the number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence movement that he's alive. we invite him on, on the show. he was commodity one para also involved in valley murphy,

9071. when of course, frank kitchen was the architect of all of us, not only of the shoot to kill policy which retired on sunday, and by the marquee and other parts of the north brain, which in the end of the collision, it were used. the loyalist forces in collision with the armed forces, u d r, and your you see to care motors on the national table kitchen series as he put in the big if may, which in light of the strategy that we owed by the are issued regiment mistake. and it is remarkable that the high he had never been held or are all the atrocities of catered on the i'm south that he give and as you say, and not only in iron but around the word where he debated and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murder people to try and put down any objections to pretty early in whatever compet maybe went over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday,

50 years ago. but does grace pharmacy i a boss general the trends that he read, frank kitchens book when the trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq. what does it make you feel that eventually bloody sunday and somehow connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east or west asia in the past few years, when it just as colonial or on the domination that britain has tried to you across the word, the empire story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold on to as many areas untested osman, whether it be based happening goblins to eat, to replace others, may partition increased in order to divide and conquer. they all, whether as on the salmon island or the partition in the country after the going on the 1920, that jackie then finish up on the c m strategy on the same idea. they were some say

written has are not allowed. but one thing that has daunted us continued to do, got a don at those times. i'm right to read is colonial. ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels the good friday agreement put a cotton behind all those days? and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid, south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the clues of behavior, according to the police ombudsman from northern ireland report, which was only released in the bus few days when they get quite clear and just got the british government. i've been involved in a, in no 50 years from the early civil rights campaign. i took part in the parcel rice marston, california, and i was like a bit. you look up a woman, one boat, right to house and right to jo. a on the british government on storm and at that

time couldn't deliver no simply demand because to give people race or stay in the country. and they would look for jobs and stay on the work number. they had the union vote in the years to come. so they had the whole collusion issue has been part and parcel, or the british controlled iron and unable to this day. and there, of course, the most recent course, no my mom clearly stint that it was collusion in the borders that collusion directed by the british government collision, implemented by the r u. c. u d r i. and on special ranch, the importation office, as african americans by british agents. i think that a tang whenever the south african regime was come to an end and were the at the british were re army, the loyalist here. i'm most of the martyrs that happened on time. where what is changed by who was weapons brought in from south africa? well, i mean, it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained weight works in the way it

operates, will change significantly. what about to jeremy cool of in actually, i mean, some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow stilling because of british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security services reprisal today. yeah, i think there's also a lot of that fear within them on but it no jeremy i went on and john don and others within. they were going to pull rows with all the key players at the time of the civil rights champion. and even jim gun and he come to darian id, spoke invitation to ratify the wrongs robin age the we don't. whitelaw with a check understand that pro dormant quit and he brought an end to storm windows upon stone. didn't no longer up arm to something assembly because they couldn't manage the proper control apart and, and they,

if you get it the special powers actually also want to get it the, the sure to get it on the integer to internment. no ramp, often with the it will happen, the british government introduced determine which again, infected winds on the national escape will in turn people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any was were and of course you have to remember that it was who i re in operation, no, really sunday and others got out would became recruitment agents for the ira because the, i want the british government were doing and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement in my 5 are allowed to operate freely with the b. s. and i, i'm going to ask about job ivy. he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes obviously, britain, once it prospected trade deal with united states. do you think bloody sunday as a factor in jo biden's actions towards his nato ally, britain?

well, i, i don't know the details. i was, he, aaron went away. he was thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been key players business with a key player and bring about the good friday agreement. and i think right, of course i, america, there is the good child support or the nation is cause because they know what britain and protected i and over the years debate and, and others know that like the kennedys that actually had to, i'm away from i'm looking for walk, because the ashes of the really goblin in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and player plan in what a good for everyone. and in the political dimension of i can move and things look forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if he interfere with the good for a women that the you, when we know trade agreement between britain on the market and show that of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's

a labor i think that americans look and make sure that they carry out on control and make sure that they actually the good friday agreement is now tampered with a not damage in any way whatsoever. but remember, the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented. we need to see if fully implemented. and again, know your talk on years after the great fabian with the same and we still haven't got the full implementation of the k for him. and that's up to both the british and the irish government to make sure as guarantors that they carry that out. because we do have the right to hold on irish unity. and that's been held back by the bread it when he started to stand at the present time. he will give that referendum when i received it in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been there. got it friends. well, i thank you. thank you. after the break, another ne donation atrocity, we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back $989.00 jesuit priest masika in el salvador,

all the smoke and we have about 2 of going underground ah, ah, ah, miss intersection is very easy, you may, if you are very good, i did, for instance, if you work in the media and you know how to do it, you can do a very good job and manipulating public opinion. you can paint light as black. you can, you know, totally trust reality and sometimes not even by lying, sometimes just by making what you want to pay or putting things in a session border all putting human emotions into one side of the story while not giving a rational analysis of the whole picture ah

ah ah ah, welcome back 100 years ago today. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations, now to day, formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government. i mean to increase u. s. influence in the region. one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into

a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 989. now, $33.00, as all the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened after a now over 2 and amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies. department professor terry lynn call. thank you so much professor for coming on in part when we talked about the 50th anniversary of matthew k killing in ireland, known as bloody sunday and the attempt for justice. why is all, salvador open this criminal investigation into events in 1989? when of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think regen actually defended the you, the salvadoran military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk wides along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their

uniform and then go out and kill people. and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of elma, so tay, which is the worst massacre in latin american contemporary history, they have their uniforms on. now that's really important because why i opened the jazz, what case? the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military, therefore, is the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened, it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians are a president, alfredo christianity, who was president of the rain and party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert park who is quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because

the civilians will be charged. and i very much doubt we will see any salvador and military charge and if they are, they will be very low level. if this case proceeds forward i own own on whether it actually proceeds oversee the president denies the there's anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness trials in spain. you expect to be an expert witness in this one? i do not. i think that the spanish have all the evidence they need. they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the a rated party who i have particularly president christianity. it was just resistors revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts. a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually

a way to pressure the rain a party which the bouquet government would like to see a disappear. i should just quickly say though, express the christiane, he has already denied involvement in the killing and killing the brace, the investigation. i mean, i should the investigation. do you, have you ever felt this that it should, it should target fort benning, in georgia, where i understand the alleged killers were all trained the school of the americans . well, you can't really do that under salvador and law are under command responsibility law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military and the highest commander was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? that's really the, the issue that was in the spanish case. he was an uninvited co conspirator. in the spanish case. it is very clear to me, and this makes salvador in law different than spanish law that president

christianity knew about this mask. the mask, or the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also, in, was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known and failed to prevent this, or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact, culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of, of military, even though he didn't really control the military. it's well, he denies wrong doing and also anything from li, pandora papers indicating the alleged legality. let's just go to wilma, z o g rather just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of the you in about. and of

course mrs. thatcher was a friend of general finishes. what happened in l. mazata in 1981 in 1981, the salvador military, i pushed large part by the united states. i went in 2 areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location. i was a gorilla and that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied their territory. now, what happened in the so day, which is, as i said, the largest massacre that we know of in latin america in contemporary period is the atlas consul battalion of the, of the salvadoran military, which was formed under, i would say u. s. tootle edge. it was not trained, and in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay,

the town was peaceful. it was unarmed, the guerrillas had left the area cuz they had great deal of forewarning that this was coming. but in the town of oma, so they, there was a story that the people in elma so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma so much more than the actual population of the city of the vill. it's a little village. and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down on that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes. that night. it

was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again. at dawn, they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st. they told the women that they were taking the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people, of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so tay, what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1092. or there was only enough money to take up $1.00 of the sites where

a $124.00 children. and all of these were babies. they were very young, are dug up. amanda sentences of rape reported and of. and the children being hang, do you know, well, we've had to over national security advisors on this show. we had right, elliot abrams on he was the assistant secretary of state at the time. and he is subsequently being the special representative of the united states to iran. and to venezuela, of course, many allegations about us policy and venezuela. in recent times he says that the actually, the numbers do not tally at all of the for a start the u. s. military, people like general galvan late and major commander 7th. dwanda would never come to torture. this is more generally there. and as for l mazata, there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people

though. well, he's using a line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 1992 forensic dig, was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were be headed in the soccer field, and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed in what was called the convent. they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear, they were massacred by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so

the weapons were provided by the united states, those who killed them where the uh, la cancel, there is no doubt of us this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador is that you cannot no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna, the identities of many of the children so that they are very small caskets can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvadoran military says that this was a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have

and we have a lot ought of, as it is a ok. well reagan's as this is like your st. thomas and the said no evidence to confirm government forces actually, systematically, mascot civilians, me later a problems. i like want to say that he later wrote not bad and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials. but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry, he had testified in the u. s. congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean, you're on a command, you're in a committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of a vanguard, diarrhea and god perhaps of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do,

knowing that there are forces that still one to oppose your view. that what was done was wrong given that abraham. so, you know, in the ninety's said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the dud course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy of the time under him was the arming. and so salvador and military and this is a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south a massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres in all salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big, massive purse there in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there,

because that's where all the kids, not all but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back at the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and death squat killings. but what was happening? same time. and elliot abrams was fully aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him, he did line a congress. he was convicted of that and he may be in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there, that's an error. i was surprised. i never knew that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. and i have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like oil and it could be

exported. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq or was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, you think we would be invaded. so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal, professor dairyland go, thank you. that's it for one of your favorite shows of this season. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch with all of social media if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch, will going on the run episodes on odyssey. and it all to you to come see very soon ah

ah, with a

with the russian defense ministry says moscow is almost taken the dumbass city of matter. you pull, unfold remaining as of fighters to lay down their arms claims. they're running low on supplies. also coming in late stuff, set up a foreign position here, a variety of caliber empty shell casings, but also as in many places that we visited mt syringes and our team crew has been reporting from the front line. the amount of your boat throughout the face by thinking a defense systems in to set a parent ukrainian strikes on the border to delegate after a village in the russian region of brianna was allegedly shelled by keith, causing several casualties. we were in the house, we looked out of the window, there was.