ah ah ah ah ah, i mean, ah, [000:00:00;00]

with i'm option retention, you're watching going underground. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look. does white nato nation in the you censorship? but until then, we'll be showing some of your favorite shows a for season so far. i'm after it adds in, you're watching, going underground. while the world is arguably fixated on, the ukraine crisis today is 11 years to they say fathers, lamb, the son of murdered libyan leader, mama, gadhafi address, libby and state tv wanting the demonstrations could lead to civil war. in libya, it appears that these woods were to be prophetic as africans, riches per capita, country descended into instability and humanitarian crises. however, it is libby as history from foreign rule occupation, and poverty to independence show a way to a peaceful future for the country and is britons ro key joining me now for a special edition of his show from here in london to discuss this is ruby, we locally former commander of british forces in libya and author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in war in the desert. thank you so much. i rupert for coming on.

anyone would think a senior british commander would have written the book just about the 2011, the invasion. your bookstore and 631, b. c. why is that? ha, lydia has a much deeper history than european involvement or are conquest oh, the osmond rule. and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to hype. yeah, i mean, i sort of got to ask you, what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from our tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the you, of course, were commander there in libya. what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in, as i say, what was one's african riches per capita? country under gadhafi. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news

for bad reasons. i usually, as you say, illegal migration or some form of violence, whether that's exported finance or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. it's got stunning beaches. it's got a most wonderful history, archaeological sites. the people are warm, polite, and they're welcoming i box. and unfortunately this, this civil war which is continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hope to take that take place. i. when i was that in 2011, 2012, we're gonna have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britain helped anti imperialism in, in libya,

which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libyan relationship. when the newly created israel from bell for declaration started the 6 day war, one was israel. so boardman destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed up. again, obviously under tony blair, well there was always a very large navient community and dating back to bremond times and i'm before that bucks off the g community with a jewish community. yes, yes, that's correct. i thought i, after the, the, the wall was the shape of libya big began to be mapped out by the allied forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be governed. and the british who were there as

a result of defeating the germans and the italians i'm were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course the high speed experiments with the republic in the 1st world war and will say the sovereignty can emmert. and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with the jewish community, as the state of israel was to clag. so the tension increased and, and, and as i described in the book there were incidence which meant that the british administrators say at intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community. and there are 2. i mean, you say that the, there was actually,

if the team deployed to libya to decide on whether to put it well to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, i was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911. but there was a small group of people who are looking at a possible home not for for church people. and if that is correct, you, it gives a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans listen to egyptian rural because the british were pro israeli. i mean, what, what i think freshman after the war way was to settings and as it is now, trying to find a balance between supporting both the and the jewish community and there are communities. i'm not, that is not an easy job, but there was certainly contracts where, where it really got difficult was where,

where their contracts are in the 1960 s. and in particular, the tank contract, which christian was i hired with these rated government and will say with the libyan government, i'm not ready wrote to i had some of the tension of the arab is ready more 967, which i see is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community. i mean, i am sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships. well, we have to remember, we were in the time cole and i'm certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the block between the supervisor. and there was a relationship with that proxy, countries where they were army each other. but for good reasons, it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with, with libya. certainly,

americans backed off and not sense. and the, and the neighboring country, egypt by the soviet union, the russians and americans, we're trying to put a friend, nasa who was very influential in terms of staring up the arab nations, which attracted many of the young ladies as you would imagine, you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapon carrying vulcan bowman to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean, while only up until the stage when, when they were replaced by yourself. and once the nuclear submarine program was in chase, the buncombe mama, i grab diminished very quickly and say really, it didn't play to break apart and the late sixty's,

80 seconds. so if one forgets the support from the libyan people for britain that you want the world to remember, why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king? who was the selling of the oil resource to the new d discovered oil resources? it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that gadhafi was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right, that oil changed everything up until that point. and libya was known as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face to live with a very difficult desert. and it was a very old country with very little gang for it in terms of industry or, or academics. so in the 1950 britain who is economically propping up the country, helping it to move forward. now, the model that's written favors and, and i said he favored it,

and those days is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to republicanism or a bit harsh on they are shown green, elizabeth, the 2nd, even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, julie guy, king address, was a corrupt beyond belief, was me, i mean, that the historians of the time, say, the amount of money amongst his cronies, angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think a corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king address at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling a dynamic, energetic country which wanted to become use. it's new found well, did that in a dominant way?

africa, the mash train yet and with the arab arab lea. but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all lame of corruption. it's a failure of intel it, i mean, the failures of intelligence are always being talked about in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from the libyan people against king. it drifts having the idea that the get after you would to remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the cou, a $969.00, which brought the revolution council to power it? i think i think more we have to remember rather than the failings of teenagers who had done a good job for for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with minor

tolbert 960. i say he had, he had overseen a long period as, as a grand d, as in m yet, but i will change have done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand is health care education, the libyan people, i mean, king address was a catastrophe, wasn't even the libyan people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get f game to power, as we know the statistic seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds to get off the revolution free medical care, free education, free electricity. i mean king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people. i did that when they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as a need yet, as i could talk about, just going back to the causes of that. a cou,

i think one of the very big points is that there wasn't a success i to, to king mattress. the nomination, pat ha, was, was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not provided. if you like, the fact you as can you dress fell. he was too old to continue and work was i going to abdicate, add the put his replacement to chance if the key was, was not suitable. and therefore, there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to buy wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete phase of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what i have to go back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh place to live with boring tribes for decades before anyone from the european side came to me. but why do you think it is in that region that gadhafi managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity,

and so on and all these amazing things get off. he brought the libyan people, and yet none of the other u. s. or nato back dictators in egypt in to an easier in algeria, the indicators were all terrible. it all those countries. so when you're talking about king edges, his replacement being better. i mean, it's clear that any one that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life chances for the people in those countries as compared to gadhafi, albeit before the arab spring. well, not that's not the libya that i i saw i went into the, the, the museum of the marches and ms. ross and all the photographs. the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the gadhafi richie. so any progress that he made for is his corrupt people, ah,

was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any ratio that has be back in history of is he has denied by get off his followers in safe. i'll get off. he's full as roby is going to become the next president. reuben, we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces libya and author of liberating the be a british diplomacy more in the desert after this break. ah, [000:00:00;00] a to see how these days because of the advocate and engagement

with so many find themselves will support. we choose to look for common ground. ah welcome back. i'm familiar with reuben, we locally formed, come under british forces in the beer, an author liberating the be a british diplomacy in warren. the does it, what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or off. do you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before? what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. p. has been on this program actually. when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuser, with the british prime minister making deals with over oil. so i think 11 husky back slightly to the 19 eighties and the period. you said there was some

progress and i think one of the big successful programs that gadhafi rotate was the great mind bait river which oh, water from the aquifers and that as it up to the text i'm. so that was i was progress. i'm and that was very expensive, but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that, and the, the war in shot which led to the downing of the 2 fights. i've a locker b site, there was a need to to, to try and rein him back. i'm so the international command, you're convinced it was a gadhafi operational, the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record i have no reason to then might have been how the past vote as well, but i have no reason to believe that the,

the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 1990 s. i was in any way incorrect to budget what it, i mean, you know that the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say, i'm sounds at the scottish case that was held, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not proven. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe of imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported gadhafi? why good? that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed,

was to see gadhafi mandela. i think one could say adored mama gadhafi. yes, they had a good relationship. but i have to correct you on the issue of a person being a, can you and it was never any. claire new policy would be awesome and rule it, and the 900 century, and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army. i'm ramos africa. you mean it says in the sense that we have us bases in britain, britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial state of united states, is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the un administration, brought libya independence in 1951. libya wished to

begin by having a partnership with egypt. but the price egypt demand, it was too high. fast in money. i'm secondly and territory. they want to see a large a racist child, which is the, as a new see that to be gyptian rather that then it. and that was to hire problems and therefore the libyans aspiration to help because economically they, what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i'm in the british bag like it was night and i, the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal distribution between the sar, any kids in the east because on in the south and the trip all the time to put attendance in the west. but these were the elites within those different tribal areas. love the people per se, who, according to get their feet participated in councils under the good effie

governance. i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m d. and the very important issue of that, which was to the 4 in nature countries, obviously in london. when tony blair was visiting good effy, do you think his greatest mistake gadhafi was removing his weapons of mass destruction program that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? and that's a very interesting i. i know that the, those who went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a factory sob, nuclear power, would it have made a difference? i think not. i think by that stage in 2011,

after the international community had supported completely the united nations, my notion of a responsibility to protect, we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of sherman, it's and rewind and which is a, which is why the united nations security council all agree to the resolution, 5 residues and 2011. which began with the condemning that they did actually get off his actions and his statement about what he was going to do to population and coffee 70 is obviously more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libya, you thing on the ground when you are with your british soldiers. they understood that there was

a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons, otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i, i want my school to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there's a great mari international circles about a non state actors gate nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i don't, i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state would have an international response if it conducted genocide within its boundaries. so i didn't, i didn't, i didn't see them. well,

so this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, area and the grand atrocity. you also know about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers, maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's, there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that has the most, the black flag, which appears after and 2012 in and see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state, i know they did come in later, but they were very much associated with l. kaiser and those that sympathized with the atrocities in new york and washington, 911. well, we were marshall worried about i did my bread and trap the trip. eat with mock turbo motor, but did you fight with any of those people the kind of people that might sympathize

with the 911 atrocity now i was i came in, i was appointed just before the doctor was captured, to killed. i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers, they were about 2025 rotation before that were advised to the revenues and to the diplomatic leaders who are that? because it's been like, and the whole need to invasion as basically pulling a coke of the top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis, where thousands of movies he drowned in the mediterranean. but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups the truth and that when it wasn't an invasion, this was as a,

as agreed in the united nations security got. so i have the resolution c, l 5. lastly, voted for the resolutions, which were all the security council i went through the stages and you one has to remember that the beginning it was the arab league, cold on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011. the, i'm back until my m r. d said this regime regime has failed miserably. i get off the mostly on the 2nd resolution was immediately after the ominous sexual general of the extent yardley has officially requested. united nations security council to impose a no fly against any military action against libya. so it wasn't,

it wasn't the west. i say it was the international community complete. and all members of the security council did not often one can say that about recent big, i'm sorry, big boy, but on the other, on the, on it, that's where the sad that there wasn't a united front in syria where you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria more explicitly, you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan go catastrophe on humanitarian intervention and syria. but can you understand that of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empower islamist to train them to go to afghanistan, whether it be iraq, whether it be that libya, whether it be syria. because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al qaeda are in that area that alone isis,

that the entire british project has bizarrely beamed to empower these islamist groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all that is good about human kind. now it says i've so i think it is now make stretch. if you call that a threat, i the, that, the feelings of the islamic extremist, i extend way back and i do in my chapter on the tallow are to my ball tell the story of albanian arrived. it was very much a course. so this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very d and the psyche of a chair. strategic have said, are roadway. oh, good. not many books by commanding british officers in the projects like libya.

thank you so much for going on. that's it for one of your favorite shows of the season, the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look. but until then, you can keep in touch viral on social media if it's available in your country and remember, you can continue to watch all going on the ground episodes on auto c a r t dot com . see very soon ah ah, ah ah ah, ah,

a ah ah, moscow's deadline for cave to withdraw its forces from their last stronghold invariable passage as ukraine's president zalinski escalate. his rhetoric saying here is ready to fight russia for another 10 years. ukraine claimed to have destroyed these lines according to international treaties, with another more mind. internationally, band land mines are found after ukrainian forces, a bed, and part of the major factory and the embattled city of mario pal as russian and