[000:00:00;00] a i did i mention retention, you're watching going on the ground, the team, and i will be back soon with a brand new look, despite nato nation and you censorship. but until then we'll be showing some of your favorite chose a for season so far. i'm after it adds in, you're watching, going underground. while the world is arguably fixated on, the ukraine crisis today is 11 years to that they say fathers, lamb,

the son of murdered libyan leader, mama, gadhafi address, libby and stay tv wanting. the demonstrations could lead to civil war in libya, it appears that these words were to be prophetic as africa's riches per capita. country descended into instability and humanitarian crises. however, it is libby as history from foreign rule, occupation, and poverty to independence show a way to a peaceful future for the country and his britons ro key. joining me now for a special edition of his show from here in london to discuss this is rupert we loc, the former commander of british forces in libya and author of liberating libby, a british diplomacy in war in the desert. thank you so much. i rupert, for coming on any one would think a senior british commander would have written a book just about the 2011 the invasion, or your bookstore, and 631 b. c. why is that? ha, lydia has a much deeper history than european involvement. all are with conquest. oh,

the osmond rule. and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to hype. yeah, i mean, i sort of got to ask you, what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from our tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the, you, you, of course, were commander there in libya. what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in, as i say, what was one's african riches per capita? country under gadhafi. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. i usually, as you say, illegal migration or some form of violence, whether that's exported violence or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. it's got stunning beaches. it's got a most wonderful history, archaeological sites. the people are warm, polite,

and they're welcoming i bought. and unfortunately this, this civil war which is continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hoped would take place by when i was that had 201182012. we're gonna have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britain helped and t imperialism in, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libyan relationship. when the newly created israel for the bell, for declaration started the 6 day war, one was israel. so born in destroying relations between britain and libya before

they warmed up. again, obviously under tony blair, well, there was always a very large navient community and dating back to bremond times and i before that i bucks off the g. a community with a church. believe it? yes. yes, that's correct. but after the, the war was the shape of libya big began to be mapped out by the allied forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be government. and the british who were there as a result of defeating the germans and the italians i'm were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course the high speed

experiments with the republic in the 1st 12 or i'll say the sovereignty can emmert. and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with the jewish community, as the state of israel was to clad. so the tension increased and, and as i described in the book, there were incidents which meant that the british administrators say at intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community and the are, i mean you say that the, there was actually, if the team deployed to libya to decide on whether to put it will to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, that was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911. but that was a small group of people who are looking at

a put possible i'm not for at all jewish people and it is correct. you give it a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans listen to egyptian rule. gus, the british were pro israeli. i mean 11 day i think britain, after the war where it was to settings and as it is now, trying to find a balance between supporting both the i, the jewish community and the our communities. i thought is not an easy job, but there was certainly contracts where, where it really got difficult was way, way them a contract. psalms in the 1960 s. and in particular the tank contract. which question was, i hide with these ready government and will say with the libyan government, i'm not ready brought to i had some of the tension of the arab is writing more in 1967, which i see is very much of

a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community. i mean, um sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships . well, we have to remember, we were in the time cole and i'm certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the book between the super pos. and there was a relationship with that proxy countries why they were arming each other. but for good reasons, it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with. certainly the americans backed off and not sense. and i'd be in the neighboring country, egypt. both the soviet union, the russians and on the americans were trying to befriend nasa who was very influential in terms of stirring up the arab nations,

which attracted many of the young ladies. as you would imagine, you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapon carrying vulcan bonus to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean. while i may up until the stage when i, when they were replaced by somebody, i'm once the nuclear submarine program was and chase the buncombe mama, i grab diminished very quickly. and i say really, it didn't play to back up in the late sixty's 87. so everyone forgets the support from the libyan people for britain. but you want the world to remember and why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king, who was the selling of the oil resources? the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't it obvious to british diplomats that get

daffy was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right, that oil changed everything up until that point. and libya was known as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face to live with a very difficult desert. and it was a very poor country with very little gang for it in terms of industry or, or academics. so in 1956 was britian who was economic the popping up the country helping it to move forward. now, the model, the mission favors and, and i said he favored it, and those days is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to republicanism or ashatash on queen elizabeth the 2nd, even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, julie guy, king address, was a corrupt beyond belief, was me, i mean,

that the joins of the time, say, the amount of money amongst his cronies, angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think a corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king interests at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling a dynamic, energetic country, which wanted to become use. it's new found. well that in a dominant way, i forgot the match train yet. i'm with the r r a plea, but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all the name of corruption. it's a failure of intel it, i mean, the failures of intelligence are always being talked about. in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from

the libyan people against king. it drifts having the idea that the gadhafi would remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the crew? a $969.00, which brought a revolution a con council to power it. i think i think what we have to remember rather than the failings of king edwards who had done a good job for, for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with milo tolbert 960. i say he had, he had overseen a long period as, as a grand d, as in m. yeah. well, i will change. i've done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand is health care education, the libyan people, i mean, king address was a catastrophe, wasn't me for the libyan people. i mean,

i'm saying this in the context of when get after game to power. we know the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds, gadhafi revolution, free medical care, free education, free electricity. i mean king interested in bring any of these things to the libyan people that they weren't, they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as immediate as i could talk about. just going back to the causes of that, a coo, i think one of the very big points is that there wasn't a success. i to add to king truce. the nomination i saw was, was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not, i provided if you like the fact you as can you dress fell, he was too old to continue at work was i going to abdicate,

add the put his replacement to chance if the key was, was not suitable and, and therefore there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to buy. i wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete fight it of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what do i have to go back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh place to have been boring tribes for decades before anyone from the european side change. but why do you think it is in that region that gadhafi managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity, and so on and all these amazing things get off the board for the libyan people. and yet none of the other u. s. or nato back dictators in egypt. in tunisia, in algeria, the indicators were all terrible in all those countries. so when you're talking about king edgers, his replacement being better, i mean,

it's clear that any one that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life. chances for the people in as countries as compared to gadhafi, albeit before the arab spring. well now that's not the libya that i, i saw i went into the, the museum of the marches and ms. ross. and i saw the photographs of the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the good, happy richie. so any progress that he made for is his corrupt people. ah, was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any regime that has been in history of his he has denied by get off his followers and faith. i'll get off his fall as robe. he's going to become the next president. reuben, we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces in libya, an author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in warren,

the desert after this break with ah . nato's appetite for continued expansion, peters. they have no in sweden and finland may suit join the military alliance, the same alliance that deems russia as an enemy. still, nato calls itself

a defense of alliance. is it only a matter of time before article by isabel? ah, welcome back. i'm celia, with rupert, we locally formed, come under british forces in the beer, an author liberating the be a british diplomacy in war in the desert. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or after you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before. what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. b has been on this program actually. when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuser, with the british prime minister making deals with of royal i think 11 husky back slightly to the 19 eighties and at the period you said there was some progress and i think one of the big successful programs that gadhafi rotate was the great mind bait river which oh,

what her from the aquifers and that as it up to the coast. so that was i was progress. i'm and i'm not, was very expensive. but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. i'm as a result of that, i and the, the war and chat, which i said to the dawning of the 2 fights. i validate. flight there was a need to, to, to try and rein him back and said the international commands, you're convinced it was a gadhafi operation, them the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record i have no reason to they might have been of the past vote as well, but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 1990 s. i was in any way incorrectly voted on it. i mean, you know that of the families of the bereaved a doubt,

the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say, i sounds as the scottish case that was held i, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not proven. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe of imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported gadhafi? why good? that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed was just c gadhafi mandela. i think one could say, adored her momma gadhafi. yes, i had a good relationship, but i have to correct you on the issue of present being

a colonial power. and it was never any colonial power where the ottoman rule and the 1900 century, and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army at that time. i'm ramos africa. you mean, i says in the sense that we have u. s. bases in britain, britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial stage, it's united states. is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. off to the un administration brought the independence $951.00. libya wished to begin by having a partnership with egypt. but the price, egypt mandate was too high,

fast the money. and secondly, in territory they wanted the large oasis jug, which is the type as a new c b j rather that then it. and that was to hire products. and therefore the libyans asked chris to help because economic, they, what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i'm in the british bag, which was nice. the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal distribution between the sirens in the east because on in the south and the trip on attack to put a tank in the west. but these were the leads within those different tribal areas. well, the people, per se, who, according to get after participated in counselors under the good effie governance, i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m d, in the very important issue of that which was to the 4 in nature countries

obviously in london, when tony blair was visiting good effie, do you think his greatest mistake if he was removing his weapons of mass destruction program that he would still be there if you had nuclear weapons? and that's a very interesting question. i i know that the, those who went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sob nuclear power, would it have made a difference? i think not, i think by that stage in 2011, after the international community had supported completely the united nations. my notion of our responsibility to protect. we were in

a different year. we were no longer in the era of sherman and rewind and which is as a, which is why the united nations security council all agree to the resolution 5 resolutions and 2011. which began with the condemning that it actually i get off his actions and i, his statement about what he was going to do to population coffee. 70 is obviously more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that they're both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libya, you thing on the ground when you are with your british soldiers. they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons,

otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i, i want to go to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there is a great worry in international circles about a non state actors gate nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i think, i think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state would have an international response if it conducted genocide within its boundary. i didn't, i didn't see them. well, so this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, area and the grand atrocity?

you also know about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers, maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's, there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that has the most, the black flag, which appears after 2012 in and see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state, i know they did come in later, but they were very much associated with either of those and sympathized with the atrocities in new york and washington 911. well, we were most worried about i did my grad with multiple not. but did you fight with any of those people that kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity i was i, i came in, i was appointed just before the doctor was captured,

to killed. i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers, there were about 2025 rotation before that. where advises to the revenues and to the diplomatic leaders who are that? because it's been like, and the whole need to invasion as basically pulling a coke off the top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis, where thousands of movies he drowned in the mediterranean. but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups and the truth, and that when it wasn't an invasion, this was as a, as agreed in the united nations security got. so i have the resolution c, l 5. lastly, voted for that the,

the resolutions which were all the security council. thank you for went through the stages and you want to remember that the beginning it was the arab league who called on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011, the ambassador until 9 am would be said this regime regime has failed miserably. gadhafi must meet on the 2nd resolution was immediately after the ominous sex general. of the extent yardley has officially requested the united nations security council to impose and notify against any military action against libya. so it wasn't, it wasn't the west. i say it was the international community complete and all members of the security council. it's not often one can say that about recent big, i'm sorry, big boy. but on the other, on the, on it,

that's really sad that there wasn't a united front or in syria where you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria. more explicitly, you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan arguable catastrophe on humanitarian intervention in syria. but can you understand that? of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empower is the missed to train them to go to afghanistan, whether it be iraq, whether it be libya, whether it be syria, because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al qaeda are in that area that alone isis, that the entire british project has bizarrely being to empower these is the mist groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and

all that whole. it is good about good. now i don't you said i, so i think it is not a threat if you call that a threat or the that the feelings of the islamic extremist extend. way back i do in my chapter on the a ball tell the story of an albanian arrived. it was very much is nomic cause. so this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very and the cycles are strategic. and our roadway logs, not many books by commanding british offices in the projects like libya that thank you so much. you got me on that set for what are your favorite shows of this season? the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch viral on social media if it's available in your country. and remember,

you can continue to watch all going underground episodes on odyssey. latino comb, she very soon ah ah ah

ah ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm funeral about naples appetite for continued expansion piers to have no end. sweden and finland may suit join the military alliance the same alliance. the deems russia as an enemy, still, nato calls itself a defense of alliance. is it only