ah ah ah ah, ah. hello and welcome across the dock were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle, nato's appetite for continued expansion piers to have no end. sweden and finland may suit join the military alliance the same alliance the deems russia as an enemy . still, nato calls itself a defense of alliance. is it only a matter of time before article 5 is invoked? ah,

discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guest, george samuel l. e. in budapest, he's a podcast or at the goggle which can be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow we crossed to to meet bob cheese, a political analyst and editor at interest me internet media project, or gentleman. crosstalk rules and fact that means you can jump any time you want and i was appreciate, i'm going to start out in budapest, george, you know, over the last few cycles. and it's been made apparent that finland and sweden may want to join nato of all times. but we can talk about that. but one of the things that you have to think about when you, when you're adding new members to this type of alliance, is what they call article 5 of mutual defense. and that's bandied around a lot. i don't think everyone really understand what, what it actually mean. so tell our viewers here. what is article 5 of the nato

treaty, what is what it is and what it isn't, go ahead. yes. well, article 5 states that an attack on one member is to be treated as an attack. all. so as the media presents that say, you know, the moment any nato member state comes under attack from any nominator member state that all 30 native member states. i'm now as war against that attacker, but of course, that isn't quite true because in the 1st place, all article 5 says that if one major member states is under attack, then all the major member states can then decide what it is that they want to do. in order to help out that attack later member states, but even more important, there is article one, article, one of the north atlantic treaty states that nato will

not result any conflict at all with anybody. 5 but other than by peaceful means, it's simply not just using force against any of the state. so when we think about what nato has been doing in ukraine for a long time, that cannot be described as trying to resolve problems. by peaceful means. nato has been very actively involved in ukraine using force arms against russia. so this is a country that is not a member of nato against another country. that is not a member of state of nature. so once you violated article one, you can't then turn around and start invoking article side. so if

finland, let's say, but to become a member of nato and would say, you know, we got to want to some of that territory back like to really, you know, we'd like it back, you know, styling to get away from us. and we'd like it back and then start making trouble. and then if rush response and similar things, we're going to go by, i mean, you have to come in on our side, know you're going to happen. and if you try to do anything at all, and that is by using force or anything, then article 5 that does not come into operation because you violated article one. well, it isn't the 1st time i think the serbs would say that nato certainly is a defensive alliance. then george is an expert on the breakup of the legal breakup of the former yugoslavia. you know, demon going back to the vinland in sweden. i mean, the, the timing could not be more peculiar because nato does deem russia as a hostile state to its alliance. so if you have 2 new applicants joining the

alliance, they are doing that full with full knowledge. that the, the, the country that they're, they want defense, they want to be part of the organization. they want to be part of will defend them from russia. so by definition, if we just take what george said about article one, they're in violation of article one because it could very likely turn into a hostile conflict with these 2 new to new members. i mean, the logic of nato is so peculiar because it's supposed to be about projecting a piece and stability. it's doing just the opposite. go ahead. oh, i agree with, you know, we can easily imagine now what will be given to these events in the media. they will say, oh would you want to sleep or you want to sleep worse than whoa, are here we are, i mean together and here with sweden and finland going in the door so many years.

new clarity. and basically this is a lot, just the facts. and the if you credit the main your, you know him, i feel like you are after the breakup of the service. basically isn't you? russian authorities democratically elected president yeltsin. they came to the family. so they said we have these be some friendship or making $48.00, you know, they're guaranteed your security and your what year. and the been that, don't you think that you know, these are when all this thinking so cleveland, since the early nineties have been reached in a way that states that home with us. the same story was basically, you know, the law, 8 years after 2014, the we, the conductor together, who don't, don't have so many dangerous, chris seems to think or even thinking,

well, that's right, that in the dame, russia, some people might see some, you know, some evidence for when it was active or not so much about defending, they were about taking any action. so basically, even freeland, we've been doing need to, which i doubt, you know, the summer. this will not change much. situational. the ground, you know, defect to these countries inside need for many years. now nature will take up the formula to, to defend them. but again, they are both members of the union. so if you look at the needle side you, which is basically the same. you had them the gauge, protect them too. so for russia it's not a big change. oh definitely. and if some people of you, oh, you know,

they're erase. it was not justified just because in one sweden, b or no. this ration was justified because such post on campus s, door jamb will go over. the suddenly changed the rhetoric because they saw that russia was a, you know, and was determined to defend itself. if the, you know, if things develop a say you say nothing really than significantly geopolitical changes. but george, i think on the other hand that the finland and sweden are signaling that they deem russia is a military threat. and, and they have actually put a target on themselves. i mean, it's one over one and one from all, isn't it? ok, i mean, i don't see any upside here. i mean, neutrality is worked very, very well, even at the very depths of the cold war neutrality worked very,

very well for anyone in sweden. i mean, i'm just willard why they want to change their status now, because now they may, they could possibly become a belligerent and in a conflict were another country, and nato start something. i mean, i don't see the upside. maybe i'm missing something, go ahead. there isn't any upside because as you say, during the cold war for feminine sweden really had a very good on. after all, you know, dirty would finland. eyes ation actually described a very nice state of affairs. the soviet union didn't interfere in the domestic affairs. all that he wanted from finland is that it wouldn't take sides in the cold war between east and west and finland and went along with sweden. enjoy a considerable reputation. we get to where he likes. we are not unless we had a major reputation during the call will because it maintain that so neutral status

. once you are member stage of nature, you know, that means you are a co belligerent and as we see now in your brain, i think a conflict between russia and nato. it's quite likely, i mean, whether it happens now, whether it happens in 2 years time or whatever. i mean it's, it's not something that's very much on the cost that happens then the countries that are in the front line, and that would be in finland. bolding, state, sweden, they, they would, they would be in the right of that will, they will be immediately targeted. and, you know, when you're at war, you have to then, you know, go for your immediate target, cut off and basis of their ports. so that in all of those ways, so the status that at least you might have enjoyed being outside of that nature even even as a general, really kind of the fact that i want to make the least you enjoy your status like that that would of spend you now, if there's a conflict,

you know that if you're going to be attacked in this, just you know, that there's no way you're going to get around the gym or the, you know, if you look at the entire history of the north atlantic treaty organization, you know, article 5 is area to front and center because um, and on the one hand, article 5, at least in theory, accorded you collective security. but the, the, the copy on it is that it should never ever be tested. ok. and that's the trick. and george already hinted to that that might be tested. and i think that that is nato's greatest nightmare. because then, you know, natal isn't, you know, unified and european union isn't unified as much as they like to say. and so it's a game of chicken right now. with the highest, you know, possible outcomes and consequences. i mean, i think that this is something that the, the, the theorists, if there is such

a thing for nato really haven't thought out, go ahead anymore. well indeed, you know, i think there was only one case yesterday when i think it was used and it was used by the state when they responded to their, their, their name by their again, old place. right. and we remember or not they, you know, neither. and again, it's rob. so need on the back or invoking article, you are the right to open the stages. i mean, you benefit, you promise you good the status during that whole a lot of financial and that you feeling was our saw, your west, you know, when was the last few months, these were huge, huge heck us, you know,

get a lot of dr. together and know where to reach rocking real quickly wing with bins and russian soviet citizens. was there a high level of antipathy or was there a mutual respect or no relations were very audio. they're much worse now than they were getting old war because of propaganda. and i'm sorry, there was no warrant. they swedish propaganda either russia unique yet. and of course you did it just like there was no anti dark. there is some happening. i have to break in here, we have to go to a hard break to hard break, and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion. and so we'll need to stay with our tea. ah

no one else seemed wrong when all proofs just don't hold any world that you have to say, proud disdain becomes the advocate an engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. ah though sure with industry to restore can just work up some of normally muscles around noon. she kitty doesn't being an extension on a nurse to me as possible. mama cooked as goose sit, get somebody to look at that. i possession of a day. one of the most of the biggest pieces goes down to come here with you, but not looking for

a ching of times to meddle for phones or something like that. and then we got that for that. i see with them. oh, welcome back to crossed up. were all things are considered? i'm hearing the bell. this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. ah. let's go back to the medium. you were making a point, the 1st part of the program you got to finish up there. go ahead. well, just neutrality, you know, utility benefit of eleanor with the whole year. and now where do reach russians go if they want to have a foreign bank account, if they want to do business, you know,

where really find the mutual county not to feel. lots of shit, so leave. so i'm going to say they go as big as they go to cover. remarkably, these are the, you know, i mean, i just refused to join the sentence against brush bravo. so if you do have for the 2nd was biggest, i was completing you wife. they money from the west aid money from russia. they in g green us together, you know, so in a secure way, the so, sorry, didn't jeans now on how the truly your tro economically beneficial areas. you know, the soho democracies and bellenger and kasha gamble and to be in the whole demo democracy at hawk, or say thing is a bit complicated, you know, watch me because it doesn't make any sense. but anyway, george,

let me go back to you was continue our discussion on article 5 and the silly dig into it, because the reason why i'm talking about it because there's a lot of weird interpretations of how it could be in vogue. i mean, we have a western countries army, you credit, at least claiming that they're going to arm the ukraine, all these huge, $800000000.00 more. and all this, you know, it is, the numbers are hard to, to grapple with. but you know, how do you get it into a country? and if you're sending arms to ukraine than that, doesn't that make you a co belligerent? and if you're a co belligerent then they're fair game out of self defense. i mean, it starts getting a little complicated here, so if there's a base in finland, her example that sending arms isn't that fair game in this conflict? and then what, article 5 be invoked and with other members of nato go along and say, you know, but you were sending arms. i mean, why should we broaden the conflict article by? it's really a nice bumper sticker until you tried to press on it. george?

yes, i, you know, you raise an excellent question because it's now clear that the nato powers are co religions. i mean, they're, they're only talking about delivering arms to ukraine. we don't know how much is actually getting in out overnight. the was a report of a transport lane having been shut down there on this up. i know that that may be true if true, then you wonder why haven't i been more a transport planes a shot down. but once you article belligerent then i, you know, it's in the old bet. that's all, i don't really see why it would be unacceptable that the russians do think it's unacceptable. why it would be an acceptable to say, attack of military base in poland. that is the, that is engaged in packing and dispatching arms to ukraine that will be used to kill russians and say, well, yes, do you see an active direction again,

still not active with rich figures. you, you are a co religion and everything that you do, all the constant propaganda campaign and open sabotage of any piece negotiation suggest that you are a global leader. now, as the media reported that a, strike an ad based on the go, why it goes into effect on russia now, what would they do? no, i don't have a mobile and it's got it. so in gauge, you know, there's not actually, it's not a loan actor. it's acting on behalf of nate, who's got clearance from all the data. so nato has got itself involved in a non nature area, is in violation of article one search and violation of light. it can then go back to that same tree which is violating. and so one would hope that countries such as hungary, victim of, i'm as

a know out of the common vocal fund. and we hope others, you know, maybe it will be a new leadership in france. i mean, emerging after the election, also say no, you can't invoke article by you violated article one daemon. good to continue this analogy here. this is the, the worst nightmare that not a po couldn't imagine because a specific member countries, the line when, for example, is decides to get into the, for a, in ukraine, in that, that does not necessarily mean and it's nato policy that they haven't actually set a policy, so you would have poland acting as a pre actor outside of the alliance, but even this is the worst nightmare that somebody else of that is that it will take one country to pull everybody else. it is george was saying right here. and so what would be, you know, all one for all one, all for $1.00 and $1.00 for all can turn into

a situation where article 5 just completely falls apart. it's like sand in your hands because you're not going to get all 30 members of the alliance that go along with it. and this is a situation that brussels is probably very worried about are absolutely right. and when nato was expand, you in the all russia want russell was that you are taking caucus with their huge or please, but then we will pull in them was already already to move groups there, which is 2 more there. there were all kinds of statements made, you know, when they're still, it is gone. for most of the day to lead the spectrum, we are part of the same over 10 years that you know, the west a huge rational sending, bowen, tiers and bullet was suggested that it should do the thing, you know,

and it was there were some or dish volunteers as though it's a very dangerous game with polo all the nato countries in rule. it's not have a deeper, don't you think that the post leadership been lead believes that they can actually force the alliance to follow it's lee, which i think is a mistake. i think that that's something that is a miscalculation george. you want to think that because it seems to me that the assumption is that we can do whatever we want because the alliance will happen fall because of article 5. but i don't think that's necessarily true. george: no, i don't think so, but the problem is, is acting alone. i mean, we know that the united states is using its satellite intelligence to provide intelligence to ukraine about russian forces and ukraine is able to target russian forces and therefore kill russians. thanks to us intelligence now that in any

nation, a very active collaboration. so the united states is very much involved in this fight. and the united states is actually, you know, pretty much directing everything that the ukraine is doing. the fact that zelinski now is not, it doesn't feel like the go skating at all about anything. russia with where he was, maybe up to 3 weeks ago, is a result of the united states encouragement and the united states, telling him a we're going to be giving you more and more of this intelligence more and more of the equipment. well, you know, that is the united states is a belligerent now because russia contact the united states, but i think russia can attract poland, and i think russia can then say, you know, maybe it may be more specific. maybe this will be a pedantic, but maybe you said a top poem that i would be more pedantic as a a tack of bass in guy. i agree,

but i just don't know exactly. no, i think i yeah, it's like a military base. and same thing with rocky, i think, you know, with russia being a good, very good position to attack some small in nature files that have got themselves in a row, listening in the s 300 into you. right. ok, well you know, we can, we can start getting bases and, you know, trying to invoke article 5 and i to see and see how others respond to. i'm sure there's a reason why the war bounce, that nobody is sending anything via hunger. it because or mine is realizing you send it to hungry, i'm hungry now becomes a belligerent. so if you've made that point and you say, hey, that's up to you, you know, you sent the weapons in your fight. don't drag us into your fight. a demon on the same token here, going back to england and sweden, there mowing, joining the north atlantic treaty organization. but it may become a undefined name, co conspirator, po,

belligerent and a finish is taken out because it's, it's, it's been found to view the sending weapons, the ukraine, and it's not a member. here we have the same situation here is that, you know, nato can't do anything about it, even though they're helping care of it. will they be obligated to help finland, for example. i mean, again, the name, it's all in the minutia here. it's very, very unclear. will nato go to war over finland when it's not a member state just like ukraine. go ahead. well, i'm coming back to what you just said. you know, i will, boyish down and act unpredictably. well, i mean, read the western press about the forty's government from the last 4 years. the western breast officials in brussels has been seen that he's mad, that he is dictatorial, that he's unpredictable, but he's dangerous. and now when russia is using the same adjectives of opportunity

suddenly with you, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. what is going on with it? stable, it's not going for you. you know, it's no friends. do we've heard from natal? did you grade was no rush right now, was it's not true and the west coast to develop some kind of logic here. because right now they just conclude direct, again with the, with us, with the still very good in russia and nationally, because of all these years. but if you listen to some of the wives, we her for the swedish, but it all the friends, it's really dangerous. i mean, these whole madness of our russian san luis. yes. there was one that actually, you know, landed there somewhere in my tea, you know, they the heat, shallow water. and since last i mean is the last, oh, i don't see 6 years. every year they said russian summaries in sweden,

sweden is now a recognizing dolphins or something like that. with george, you know, i think when we look back in history here, when, if sweden were to join nato, i think there will be a future store and say, alba and neutrality we had a good deal. ok, i mean, what happened here? last 20 seconds. go to george. yes, no question. what if we didn't want to join us, nate roches, borders direct borders with nato? well, double that cannot induce great deal of anxiety in russia, particularly in the context of everything that's been going on. the western propaganda and everything that makes life very, very dangerous for the fins, because this isn't the right time. it's joining a turning. it's

a turning article, buying into some kind of stupid drinking game in a college campus. ok, that's my opinion here. as all the time we have want to thank my guess in budapest and here in mosque, i want to thank our viewers from watching us here at r t c. and see you next, i'm remember. ah, ah, with 30 i spoke earlier with her. what are your thousands of people still live in small towns and villages that have become the new frontline towards that bridge? what they call this area? the gray zone didn't like the early, early from iraq was pretty new with that was only about a used vehicle with for starting

this village. olivia, they'll do more no way in one so that similarly with him demos of area with she'll berella like noise through and where she is. 2 or 3 alexandro hulu. she'll not tell us that she made up city of pleasure with that. what does that double hit funky? what buddy leslie was just before he boise prove here, scott replied, throwing up last night. i didn't think my wife would you be a finished college? bought another account with you. can you go to jim in the garden? you should be had with

ah ukraine, big rich country that's always been hand in hand with russia until recently. 2014, a qu divides ukraine and leads to fratricidal war and on a war that continues to this.