ah, i'm african retention, you're watching going underground team and i will be back soon with a brand new look to swipe nato nation and you censorship. but until then we'll be showing some of your favorite shows a for season so far. ah, i'm after attention you're watching going underground. while the world is arguably fixated on, the ukraine crisis today is 11 years to that they say father's lamb, the son of murdered libyan leader. mama gadhafi address libyan state tv warning the demonstrations could lead to civil war in libya, it appears that these woods were to be prophetic as africa's riches per capita. country descended into instability and humanitarian crises. however, it is libya's history from foreign rule occupation and poverty to independence show a way to a peaceful future for the country and his britons ro key. joining me now for the

special edition of the show from here in london to discuss this is rupert, we locked the former commander of british forces in libya and author of liberating to be a british diplomacy in war in the desert. thank you so much. i rupert, for coming on, anyone would think a senior british commander would have written the book just about the 2011 the invasion, or your bookstore in 631 b. c. why is that? ha, lydia has a much deeper history than european involvement. so our conquest o the osman rule, and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to hype. yeah, i mean, i sort of got to ask you, what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from our tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the, you, you, of course, were commander there in libya. what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in,

as i say, what was one's african riches per capita? country under gadhafi. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. i usually, as you say, illegal migration or some form of violence, whether that's exported finance or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. it's got stunning beaches. it's got a most wonderful history, archaeological sites. the people are warm, polite, and they're welcoming i bought. and unfortunately this, this civil war which has continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hoped would take that take place. i. when i was that in 2011, 2012,

we're gonna have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how brittany helped anti imperialism in the, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libyan relationship. when the newly created israel from bell for declaration started the 6 day war, one was israel. so a born in destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed up. again, obviously under tony blair, when there was always a very large navient community and dating back to bremond times and i'm before that bucks off the g community with a jewish community. yes, yes, that's correct. i thought i, after the, the, the wall was the shape of maybe a big began to be mapped out by the i forces that there was

a decision to make about how they would be governed. and the british who were there as a result of defeating the germans and the italians i'm were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course the high speed experiments with the republic in the 1st 12, or i'm will say the sovereignty can emmert. and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with the jewish community, as the state of israel was to clad so as the tension increased, and as i described in the book, there were incidence,

which meant that the british administrators say at intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community and they are let me say that the, there was actually, if the team deployed to libya, to decide on whether to put it well to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, i was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911. but there was a small group of people who are looking at a possible home not for for church people. and if that is correct, you, it gives a bit harsh to say in the booklet. many libyans listen to egyptian rural gus, the british were pro israeli. i mean, what, what i think christian after the war where was to settings and as it is now trying to find a balance between supporting both the i the jewish community and they are

communities. i'm not, that is not an easy job, but they were sent me contracts where it, where it really got difficult was where, where the a contract bombs in the 960 s. and in particular, the tank contract, which gratian was i hired with these ready governments and will say, with the live in government, i'm not ready brought to i had some of the attention of the arab is writing more than 1967, which i see is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community. i mean, i am sales were really such an important element in the geopolitical relationships . well, we have to remember, we were in the time cole and i'm certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the block between the supervisor. and there was a relationship with that proxy,

countries where they were army each other. but for good reasons, it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with, with libya. certainly, americans backed off and not sense. and i see in the neighboring country, egypt by the soviet union, the russians and america, we're trying to put a friend, nasa who was very influential in terms of staring up the arab nations, which attracted many of the young ladies as you would imagine, you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapon carrying vulcan bomb is to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean, while only up until the stage when, when they were replaced by yourself. and once the nuclear submarine program was in

place, the buncombe, i grab, diminished very quickly and say really, it didn't play to break apart and the late sixty's, 80 seconds. so if one forgets the support from the libyan people for britain that you want the world to remember. and why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king? who was the selling of the oil resource? the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that the gadhafi was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right, that oil changed everything up until that point, as libya was known as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face to live with a very difficult desert and it was a very old country with very natural gang for it in terms of industry or, or academics. so in the 1950 britain who is economic

b popping up the country helping it to move forward. now, the model, the written favors and, and i said he favored it, and those days is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to at republicanism or a bit harsh on they are shown green, elizabeth, the 2nd, even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, julie guy, king address was a corrupt beyond belief, was me. i mean, that this during the time, say, the amount of money amongst his cronies, angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think a corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king address at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways,

in many ways not suited to ruling a dynamic, energetic country which wanted to become used. it's new found well that in a dominant way, i forgot to mention train yet and with the arab ira lee. but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all name of corruption on it. a failure of intel. i mean, the failures of intelligence are always being talked about in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from the libyan people against king. it drifts, serving the idea that the good after you would to remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the cou, a $969.00, which brought the revolutionary con council to power it?

i think, i think more we have to remember rather than the failings of teenagers who had done a good job for for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with minor tolbert 960. i say he had overseen a long period as, as i grabbed it and it will, i will change. i've done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand is health care education, the libyan people, i mean, king interests was a catastrophe, wasn't even the libyan people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get after game to power as we no, the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds. get afi, revolution, free medical care, free education, free electricity. i mean king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people. i did that when they were programs, but they were, they weren't,

i would say the progress wasn't as a need yet, as i could talk about, just going back to the causes of a cou. i think one of the very big points is that there wasn't a success i to, to interest the nomination. i saw was, was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not provided if you like, the fact you as can you dress fell. he was too old to continue at work was i going to object change add the put his replacement to chance if the key was was not suitable. and therefore, there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to buy wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete phase of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what do i have to go back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh place to live with boring tribes for decades before

anyone from the european side came to me. but why do you think it is in that region that gadhafi managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity, and so on and all these amazing things get actually brought to the libyan people. and yet none of the other u. s. or nato back dictators in egypt into his ear. in algeria, the indicators were all terrible in all those countries. so when you're talking about king edges, his replacement being better, i mean, it's clear that anyone, that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life. chances for the people in those countries as compared to gadhafi all be before the arab spring. well not that's not the libya that i i saw i went into the, the, the museum of the marches and ms. ross and all the photographs. i'll see

hundreds of libya and see what killed oh, disappeared under the gadhafi richie. so any progress that he made for is his corrupt people. i was as much corrupted as the previous regime or any ratio that has be back in history obviously has denied by it after his followers and faith. i'll get f. he's full as roby. he's going to become the next president group. we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces in libya and author of liberating the be a british diplomacy more in the desert after this break. ah ah

ah no, not a and i think they were getting and made the mistake a and despite those with providing to blame, but no single american soldier cost the same thing with ah, welcome back, i'm celia with rupert, we look the foreman come under british forces in the beer, an author liberating to be a british diplomacy in war and the does it,

what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or after you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before. what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. b has been on this program actually. when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuser, with the british prime minister making deals with of royal i think 11 house gave back slightly to the 19 eighties and at the period you said there was some progress and i think one of the big successful programs that gadhafi rotate was the great mind bait river which oh, water from the aquifers, and that as it up to the coast, i'm so that was, i was progress. and, and that was very expensive. but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that, i and the, the war and chat,

which i said to the downing of the 2 fights that i, the lockerbie fight there was a need to at, to try rein him back and said, the international can, yes, you're convinced it was a gadhafi operation than the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record, i have no reason to. there might have been other pass both as well. but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 1990 s i was in any way incorrect to budget what it, i mean, you know that the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case, i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say i sounds at the scottish case that was held, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not

proven. i, i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe of imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported gadhafi? why good? that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed, was to see gadhafi mandela. i think one could say, adored her momma gadhafi. yes, i had a good relationship, but i have to correct you on the issue of present being a colonial power. and it was never any colonial power where the ottoman rule and the 1900 century, and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army. i'm ramos africa.

you mean it says in the sense that we have u. s. bases in britain, britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial stage of united states. is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the un administration, brought the independence of $951.00. libya wished to begin by having a partnership with egypt. but the price egypt, amanda, it was too high. fast in money. and secondly, in territory. they want to see a large oasis jug, which is the, as a new see that to be junction rather that and then it and that was to higher price. and therefore the libyans asked to help because

economic pay. what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i'm in the british bag, which was nice. the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal distribution between the sirens in the east because on in the south and the trip on a time to call to change it to the west. but these were the leads within those different tribal areas. well, the people, per se, who, according to get, after you participated in counselors under the good effy governance, i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m d, in the very important issue of that, which was to the 4 in nature countries, obviously in london, when tony blair was visiting good effie, do you think his greatest mistake if he was removing his weapons of mass destruction program that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? and that's a very interesting question. i i know that the,

those who went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sob nuclear power, would it have made a difference? i think not, i think by that stage in 2011, after the international community had supported completely the united nations. my notion of a responsibility to protect. we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of sherman, it's and rewind and which is as a, which is why the united nations security council. all a great to the resolution, 5 resolutions and 2011. which began with the condemning

that they did. actually, i get off his actions and i, his statement about what he was going to do to population and coffee. 70 is obviously more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libya, you thing on the ground when you are with your british soldiers. they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons, otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i, i want to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there's a great mari international circles about a non state actors,

gainey nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i think i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state would have an international response if it conducted genocide within its boundaries. so i didn't, i didn't, i didn't see them. well, so this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, area and the grand atrocity us, you know, and about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers, maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's, there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that has the next day, the black flag, which appears after 2012 in and see what wasn't

necessarily the islamic state, i know they did come in later, but they were very much associated with either of those that sympathized with the atrocities in new york and washington 911. well, we were much worried about, i'm kind in my grad and trap the trip. it took a long time, but did you fight with any of those people the kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity now i was i came in, i was appointed just before the doctor was captured, to killed. i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers, there were about 2025 rotation before that. where advises to the revenues and to the diplomatic

leaders who are that because it's been like and the whole major invasion as basically pulling a coke of top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis with thousands of what we see drowned in the mediterranean, but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups and the truth, and that when it wasn't an invasion, this was as a, as agreed in the united nation security. got. so i have the resolution c, l 5. lastly, voted for that the, the resolutions which were all the security council. thank you for went through the stages and you one has to remember that the beginning it was the arab league cold on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011. the,

until 9 am. with the said, this regime regime has failed miserably. gadhafi must late meet on the 2nd presentation was immediately after the ominous sexual general of the extent yardley has officially requested united nations security council to impose and notify against any military action against libya. so it wasn't, it wasn't the west, i say it was the international community complete. and all members of the security council is not often one can say that about recent big, i'm sorry, big boy, but on the other, on the, on it, that's pretty sad that it wasn't a united front and syria. well, you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria more explicitly. you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan arguable catastrophe on humanitarian intervention in syria. but can

you understand that, of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empower is the missed to train them to go to afghanistan. whether it be iraq, whether it be that libya, whether it be syria, because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al qaeda are in that area that alone isis. that the entire british project has bizarrely being to empower these islamist groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all that whole. it is good about human good. now i don't have so i think it is now make a threat if you call that a threat or the that the feelings of the islamic extremist. i extend way back i do in my chapter on b,

a bull tell the story of an albanian arrived. it was very much about it's nomic cause so this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very deep in the psyche of a strategic scenario. wherever we are good. not many books by commanding british offices in the projects like libya that thank you so much. you go, that's it for what are your favorite shows of the season, the theme, and i will be back soon with a brand new look. but until then, you can keep in touch wire all our social media if it's available in your country and remember, you can continue to watch all going on the ground episodes are not to see that r t dot com see very soon ah

nato's appetite for continued expansion piers to have no in sweden and finland may soon join the military alliance, the same alliance, the dean's, russia. as an enemy. still, nato calls itself a defense of alliance. is it only a matter of time before article by isabel with you to look up for me? i'm literally muscle around noon. she kitty doesn't being in the green shield on a nice to me, but i see mom with his ashy of a dc. wondered what the duplicate fees it goes down to come be for the one to move please. this is jason with you. but he has not put the key for the chain of crimes in the pro phones or something like that. and then we got at that point, did that with that?

with breaking news on our g massive shelling is reported on the don boss, the front line. as you praise president zalinski says, russian forces have started a long prepared offensive. he vows that ukraine won't give up any more territory. italian journalist slams ukraine's president zaleski as an obstacle in the way of peace and says cues leader is neglecting civilian casualties. which are linked to pretty photos. lensky seems like a very dangerous character. he is leading a campaign that can actually bring about massive destruction and casual.