it, by the way, it was not a whole victory. if you would ever put more attention to the nuclear issue rather than longer resize that you might have been the victim. would it be the right side of his story? i doubt that. now, the tensions between russia and the west, especially over ukraine, have been building for quite some time a couple of years it decades. and yet when i interview western experts, they always point out that the russian actions in ukraine, however disagreeable they may be totally unprovoked. this totally unprovoked, totally coming out of the blue. do you think that's a delivery? that's the station, or is it a genuine blindness on that part that they somehow missed the last couple of years of the very tenuous relationship. it's been our size. i can understand for security dilemma, somebody that tries to defend himself and accumulates power,

military power to defend itself at the same time. oh jake is said to its name. so this type of situation saline i, i definitely understand is her desire for larger margins of security. hey, we have to remember that nato expended is 12 close, so to wash and both of those. and when it was promised to do the kremlin new will else at that time. so you know, this will not happen. i am pretty sure that the, not the doesn't have any offensive intentions. but there's the same time, it's really difficult to dismiss the feels of russia and to have historic feel. so invasion funds are her funds o. s. so this is precisely the problem of

a security dilemma or in bar i'm you from here from the next person, right? need to, doesn't harbor any explicit intentions in russia, but, you know, looking at some of the recent actions by the members in libya or syria, you know, they, maybe they were not intentional, but they happen not to last. i mean, is it really so crucial to, you know, have these written as a statement of purpose that a tac rush or rather than, you know, pursuing from the reality perspective and seeing what nature members have done militarily in recent history. i think i have been understanding was that obama and well, i mean, we slip in libya and silly i think by the license just you know,

not as it is a middle east. so faith, things that they're like doing, told me that as americans disagree and instead of sitting down and trying to the right, you know, divide zillow, this is, you know, part of this is my palm. and then tied to exist as it was doing is a called a lot. and i think and there is a understanding in the west on how to run a foreign policy. they become the to liberal or heavy illusion. say about what the interaction relation to release. and as a result of that, i missed both options on both sides. now i take it from your writing that you take

the fulfillment of national interest rather than morality as the ultimate measure of any policy you wrote that and then you hear that no country is allowed to gamble on its very existence. and i think that's pretty clear and how israel conducts itself on the international stage. but if we look at the ration from that perspective in russia had the choice and then to act militarily with ukraine becoming increasingly militarized and increasingly hostile to russia. this will allow him to clarify, a country has no white, no model to commit suicide. and so for a test to act upon its internet international, it's national interest. those choices, though, he's a choice to surrender or so. so i show obviously has many choices. and they chose to estimate it totally in order to defend its national interest in ukraine.

and deb, this was following a serious little warning lowest, but so it was didn't they could to speak. and i'm not making any judgment any more judge. i can understand their behavior overstayed that once we're able audio mode use of the kill it this way once a month. and then i would like to point out that korean was to some extent. i was out caution when you leave next to a big bear like russia you have to because that's so i have a chuckle about russian a russian being there. i think we're a little bit more civilized than leaving the but you know, in that the perception, so be i want to ask you about a country. was that the addition of

using full now you can obviously go, yeah, absolutely. and israel is also is by being much smaller, it's also a country that takes in survival very seriously. and you are definitely not shy about striking targets on the countries territory. and i think to some extent, israel, of course, projection projection relies on its adversaries knowing that some sort of richer vision is inevitable. so i want to ask you whether you think that the drastic actions that she's now taking in ukraine is that there at least partially conditions on russia being has a, tend to flip all as to your math and for way too long. have russia reacted earlier and more forcefully when the current prices have been avoided? doing things it could have been by. i'm ellia by saying that the state paying attention to russian security concerns l. so by

the cube lease. well 1st, so crane in leadership? not the understanding that there are certain anxious may go vocal russian sensitivities. and as a result, though, we have no, it will deny which is not the really nice thing. people lose their lives. cities are destroyed, but this is this spelt of wall. now within the western camera, it has a very interesting position because it tends to whoa side, many western resolutions condemning rushes behavior, but it is also non dismissive of russia security concerns what the israel's game or the israel or ration now in this way. a clue. hey, on on hand,

we also know dependent as united states or what's, what's the cause of free will. and then we are going to want to be american care. on the other hand. and not file form will i leave, am zillow sion, sammy, in celia. and though we reach an agreement to coordinate to our military actions with against iranian thong, which is something which is extremely important to his national security. and we want to make sure that this quality nation a continuous, which is dependent upon a russian good will in the national interest. and so we try to balance our no participation in, in what's called a western cam. it will say air realistic position. this

a v n a neighbor which is a national, a neighbor, and to have to take it into consideration. we are not acting idealistically. i think say, general outlook cove is lady fawn policies and quality. and as a result of that, we are trying to balance those through interest, which is not going to the us. india is doing the same amount of countries. so doing the same without the loan in what you call this game. and you both and to have to take into compilation. it's national interest. and when we did it, you mentioned russia presence in syria, and i think one out of country to mention here is turkey. and i think you would probably agree that in syria, russia was both for accommodating, it was respectful of both turkeys and israel's central security considerations. but

it also could be power on some of the actions when, when it deemed them excessive. so that allows me to conclude that at least with israel and turnkey in syria, russia has learned how to differentiate between the, the various uses of power and why didn't work the same way with your brain go. so i agree was there was a when they decided to intervene on a jeep into a situation as a is wally and play a, a new claim. a basic is always know is currently those sheep. and which is that, and i would say, you know, i to, russian, and, and namo it was ideal for being part of the view. it has didn't play a game. and as a result of that,

and as i mentioned, this is one at least 4. so we are witnessing now since i mentioned turkey, you know, that it's a very challenging partner for both russia and these are especially under prime minister and i'm at a prime minister. yeah, that's my mistake president. how could i forget that? but anyway, he's been in po, wait, what quite some time. is it really which way? here. he's in powerful way for quite some time and 2001. yes. and our countries have gone through the periods of acute crisis and very pragmatic relationship. and we managed to restore some sort of partnership after the very precarious incident back in 2015 when the church shut down

a series, which was taken in moscow as a staff in the back. and yeah, it's worked towards restoring some sort of a problematic relationship. good serve as a model for, you know, future adversaries to that serve as a model for either russia and ukraine going forward, or perhaps russia and the way going forward. basically my knowledge and this is what we see developing is that is about getting between the united states and its allies and the, and i am and does a lot of times when i make i had a different leadership and as a, to come to a key since i differently the blows the flag says, united states doesn't have it. kissinger at this times it understands international politics,

understands politics and understands that sometimes you have to accommodate your lease because they have ran national interest and day in international relations. unless you are extremely strong, you can get everything present in bar. we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments. mm. mm hm. a 3 little green spoke

with edison. both, both the models you need to deal with a, with a lot of them bought a a with

with, with, with mm ah, welcome back to well, the part with and bring in bar president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor in bar, one of the proposed goals, the russian military operation in your brain, he's the so called cation and i have to say that when i 1st heard this term, it sounded very odd and artificial. i think it was the russian speakers a couple of weeks to even learn how to pronounce it without stumbling. having said that, the thing now says, or fashion has ever been

a problem in more than day. praying a modern day. remember who i did was there was nothing but i do, i do not know enough about the politics of a claim today to be able to respond to it. i must say, you know, this sentences sounds very strange to the western ears. and even here in italy, we have, you know, a long shot population. a, i think, you know, if i would have to advise mr. booth and i would advise him to use a different sentence to justify his the now can i brought in this out towards the issue on nasa because i think the

address on, on to killers of why me i, you know, exceptional or secret nature of any given and the 2nd i think is the, this issue of the, of the end of history, that history has some pre determined more. and as we know, people are, was trying to bring that about. is that a concept that is being reliable? not only, let's say in ukraine, but also more broadly movies that you consider most of the chosen people. so, and nobody, you know, saying that this is any of those and that's it. but you know, many nationalities, things out. and so this is about the well, naturally and again, i think that this choice of who owns it was not is the best

one you mentioned, the just consider themselves the chosen people that you're not trying to impose your way of life and you're quite restrictive about who can join your, your people's rules for that. but when we look, let's say in the american constitution, they not only define themselves as exceptional, but also see themselves as a, the ultimate judge, almost the replacement of god. i wonder if this russian, american rivalry over the years is partially spiritually based over whether one country can be the ultimate, just what, what is good and what is evil in international affairs. i refrain from making normative judgments, but it's, you know, every church believes and it has a direct line to, to gun and

a christian it though. so america it, which is actually becoming less and less. so it's not for different form is a viable when that with and then i'm not, the specialist was also the church in russia, but they believe there is a revival in. no, it's all in design. you know, it's coming back. absolutely. but i think any self conscious nation wants to build its own, you know, have only jerusalem of that for sure. but i think very nations, in fact, only one nation please that you know, this is the one the only have only jerusalem. you know that. and the russian also allows for the multiplicity of gardens. the question is whether the americans are ready to leave, even after these are you printing crisis, whether they are ready to accept that they can be multiplicity of developmental

tasks in the world. and that not everything. and not everybody will play that tune . i went to greece, it is a missionary stain in american foreign policy. and this is why we have those complaints for democracy. and the campaigns for human rights, which is truly blue. ridge, national interest of the united states. and this is part of america, and there are some positive sinks about it though some negative things about it. but this is towards that. so is a mesh mission of israel, sometimes in american foreign policy. and which is not prismatic, when you displace too much of this type of desire will be moral and imposed. it's morality on the hello. now in one of your articles,

he pointed out that you korean experience being last one on one as you put in ruth, less russian neighbor. i will reinforce israel's belief in south protection doctrine that in the times of crisis, you can only rely on yourself even if you nominally have very, very strong ally. do you think israel will be the only country to, to draw? that's lesson or do you think they will be more conscious that they'll stop relying on hooley, on, on the power of american deterrence? i think we see in the middle east the clear with development in that direction because americans are signaling or the so we have ministration obama, dom and does a by nurse questions that they don't want to be as a me please. they want to retreat and to focus on the chinese challenge. and

as a result of that, is that going feels particularly among those. so that boy will do seen countries said so willingly man without a shield against the hon. no, i do so. and as a result of that, of course we see and the alignment was excellent and but is well definitely has the self reliance. milton. from the very beginning, this is also a jewish experience. and i am at a disdainful as a you know, zone i, investor guarantees on up the world much and i think same king as made the mistake . hoping that the westwood intervene on our behalf. and despite goes ahead, said the worst case providing to claim. but no single american soldier cost the same crumbled. can i also ask you about your because your, after very long pass,

this is spell and now seems to be more willing to invest into its own defense. perhaps even a sense. and that is very visible in germany, germany very dramatically rose and expenditures. is that something natural to be expected? or is it something to be well worried about that in historical hindsight, being made the mistake of the end of the call believing that they are going into a paradise. and those are national security problems, so will be sort of after the defeat of the soviet union. so i'll go home and this is a awakening. pull you up. i'm not sure how don't get to a less and maybe it will fail. you know,

the dilemma between the guns i may fail to be, but those are those and use the money for guns. but this room has to be seen but clearly . so there's a change of ethical within, you know, in many or countries in on is a show for national defense. i guess it's my final question a, you mentioned this choice in butter and guns. and clearly there is also an economic damage that's coming to all sides from a very harsh sanctions introduced by europe and the united states. you mentioned before that your ultimate test for foreign policy is how well it serves national interest. based on that, do you think the policy of sanctions is good enough for the europeans because it seems to be hurting not only the russians only the europeans, but also much of the much of their will. that has absolutely nothing to do with,

you know, a, all the arguments in russian to where we're really economic sanctions. we're really successful in, oh, america, right? sanctions against iraq against cuba for many years and didn't change behavior of the country. so i need to suffer and to pay heavy price for continue was a policy a i don't really much is for as a sanctions, fuller, a change, a calculus. so fashion leadership. and of course the may still be seen. we shouldn't forget that as assumptions how those those, the, with the you up in particular is dependent on russian n, o g on russian weight. so it is, so, you know, in every world we have 2 equations. one can cause more damage,

but also another equation. it was the countries that can take a most definitely no for looking at history. i think her russia is displayed their willingness to a cost full well what it believes, it's too well. i agree with you. but i also think that russia definitely has showcase capability to suffer a lot, but it also has demonstrated a willingness to reach some sort of a compromise with israel. tricky or many other contentious neighbors and partners. i hope the west can also learn from bad news. ok, possibly no outcome will be the people on the station. oh, okay. is there only delray has already and i was not going to

join, but they don't think so. russia miscalculated the is a competence of its military forces and that will 2nd phone. you know, it's more go crane by then no one said, you know, one more piece it's ok. so maybe this will be, they'll come in maybe, you know like met the washington. well, of the time being we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your insights. you're welcome. thank you for watching hope to see you again. next week on with me.

chris. ah . ah, nice to come to the russian state. little narrative. i've stivers, i'm phoning north lansky diva knocking also once a week within a 50 babel disability on any scoop i'm speaking with. we will van in the

european union, the kremlin media machine. the state aren't russia today and spoke ortiz spoke now, given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pin said with me. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on offensive. very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time. time to sit down and talk with

ah, the steel is finished. okay. with the letters that both both the moms with grandma but a lot of them bought a wall with .