ah, a one of the most generative and most destructive western concepts, giving rise to a conflict in ukraine rekindling the old disputes about right and wrong sides of history. still a chance for russia and the last meeting somewhere in the middle to discuss with them now and join by for president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies . professor invites great to see you great and talk to you. thank you very much for your time. my pleasure, you wrote recently about the seemingly existential political needs to be perceived

as being on the right side of history. if we tried to put quality center baganda out of it and look at it from historical and perhaps psychological perspective, what time do you need this righteousness? i don't believe in high psycho history basically is the history is written by the victim loans and good narrative remains a is a few. jo is the ones that is defined by the victim. by the way, hitler was not a big bully. if you would have put more attention to the nuclear issue, no longer that you might have been the victim would be so excited about that. now the tensions between russia and the west, especially over ukraine, have been building for quite some time a couple of years. no decades, and yet when i the western i asked for is they always point out that the

russian actions in ukraine, however disagreeable they may be, are totally approval. they see this totally unprovoked, totally coming out of the blue. do you think that's a delivery? that's the station, or is it a genuine blindness on that part that they somehow missed the last couple of years of the very tenuous relationship. it's been our size. i can understand for security dilemma, somebody's a price to defend himself and accumulates both military power to defend itself. at the same time, the po jake is sent to its name. so this type of situation, sally inevitably i, i definitely understand a desire for larger margins of security. a, we have to remember that nato expand it is 12 closer to a lesson,

but with those and when it was promised to, to the company knew what else at that time. so, you know, this will not happen. i, i'm pretty sure that the not to doesn't how about any offensive inventions, but there's the same time it's really difficult to dismiss the feels over russia and to have historic feel. so renovation from the, from the west. so this is precisely the problem of a security dilemma, or in, i'm you from here, from west prison, right? need to, doesn't harbor any explicit intentions in russia. but, you know, looking at some of the recent actions by major members in libya or in syria, you know, the, maybe they were not intentional, but they have not the last. is it really so crucial to, you know,

have these written as a statement of purpose. and they said that no one to attack russia rather than, you know, proceeding from the reality perspective and seeing what nature members have done militarily in recent history. and had been understanding was obama and well, i mean, we slipped in libya and silly i seen by the license just, you know, not as it is a middle east. so a things that they're like doing toby, as americans disagree and instead of sitting down and trying to divide you know, divide zillow. this is the. * obama, this is my palm and then tied to exist as it was doing the called the law.

and i think i am there is a understanding in the west on how to run foreign policy. they become too liberal or heavy illusions about what the international relations please and this result of that for the army misperceptions on both sides. now. 6 i think it from your writing that you take the full cell of national interest rather than morality as the ultimate measure of any policy you wrote that and then we'll be hearing that no country is allowed to gamble on its very existence. and i think that's pretty clear and how israel conducts itself on the international stage. but if we look at the ration from that perspective in russia, have a choice and then to act militarily with ukraine becoming increasingly militarized

and increasingly hostile to russia. this is what i want to clarify. a country has no white, no model to commit suicide. and so for a test to act upon its internet internationally, it's national interest, those choices. there is a choice to surrender or so. so when i show, obviously as many choices, and they chose a to defend its national interest in ukraine and good. this was following the silliest little warning to the west, but so it was didn't take it seriously. and i'm not making any judgments any more judge. i can understand their behavior overstayed that once a month it's a once large amount of security. and then i would like to point out that it

was to some extent that was all caution. when you leave next to a big bear like russia, you have to because that's all, i have a chuckle about russia, russia being there. i think we're a little bit more civilized than leaving that. but you know, in that the perception, so be i want to ask you about a country where is that the addition of using phones? now if you can obviously go, yeah, absolutely, and israel is also despite being much smaller, it's also a country that takes in survival very seriously. and you are definitely not shy about striking targets on the countries territory. and i think to some extent, israel's, of course, projection projection relies on his adversaries knowing that some sort of retribution is inevitable. so i want to ask you whether you think that the drastic

actions that she's now taking in ukraine is that there at least partially conditions on russia being has a tend to flip all as to your math. and for way too long. russia reacted earlier and more forcefully when the current prices have been avoided. doing things it could have been by yeah, i'm really by you not to states paying attention to russian security concerns a or so by yeah. z hubris. oh, 1st oh, crane in leadership and not the understanding that there are certain anxious may go vocal russian sensitivities and death result though we have no, it will deny which is not the really nice thing. people lose the lives cities i

will destroy it. but this, this, out of all now within the western camera, israel has a very interesting position because it tends to whoa last side, many western resolutions condemning russia's behavior. but it is also not dismissive of russia security concerns what the israel's game or the israel or rationale in this company is a national honestly clue no or no on hand. we also know dependent on the not it's a sponsor, what's the, what's the cause of free will. and then we are going to want to be american care. on the other hand is not file form. well i leave, am 0 sion sammy in syria. and though we reach an agreement to coordinate to our military actions, so as

a military action against any intelligence, which is something which is extremely important to his national security. and we want to make sure is that this so called the nation a continuous, which is dependent upon a russian goodwill in the national interests. and so we try to balance our no participation in it. what's called the western cam. a position this a v n a which is a name and we have to take it into consideration. we are not acting idealistically. i think the general outlook cove is really fun policies and quality . and as a result of that, we are trying to balance those through interest, which is not going to be on india is doing the same amount of companies are doing

the same without the loan. in what you call this game. lashley any boat. and you have to take into consideration, it's national interest. and when we act, this unity, you mentioned russia presence in syria, and i think one out of country to mentioned here is turkey. and i think you would probably agree that in syria, russia was both for accommodating, it was respectful turkeys and israel's central security considerations. but it also could be power on some of the actions when, when it deemed in them. so that allows me to conclude that at least with israel and turn to interior, russia has learned how to differentiate the various uses. so power and why he didn't work the same way with your brain. because of like the was there was a when they decided to intervene on

a jeep into a situation is wally and play a. a new claim for basic is always know it currently those sheep. and which is that, and i would say to know, i do i shannon and namo it was ideal for being part of the view. it has didn't play a game. and as a result of that, and as i mentioned, this is one of these before. so we are witnessing now since i mentioned turkey, you know, that they said very challenging partners for both russia and these are especially under prime minister and i'm at a prime minister. yeah,

that's my mistake president. how could i forget that? but anyway, he's been in po, wait till quite some time and they didn't really was with here. he's in powerful way for quite some time. and 2001. yes. and our countries have gone through the periods of acute crisis and very pragmatic relationship. and we managed to restore some sort of partnership option, the very precarious incident back in 2015 when the church shut down a beach, which was taken in moscow as a, as a staff in the back. and yeah, it's worked towards restoring some sort of a pragmatic relationship. good god serve as a model for a future and research to that serve as a model for either russia and ukraine going forward, or perhaps russia and the way going forward. basically my knowledge and

this is what we see developing is that is again between the united states a and i am and there's a lot of times when i make i had a different leadership and a key since i differently the blows of like the united states doesn't have to do it this time, so it understands international politics, understands politics and understands that sometimes you have to accommodate your lease because they have a national interest in day, in international relations. unless you are extremely strong, you can get it in by we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments. mm.

mm. okay. with what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms. race is often very dramatic. development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very political time to sit down and talk with. mm

hm. what come back to well, the part with and frame in for president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor in bar, one of the proposed gold rush and military operation in your brain. he's the so called to see cation and i have to say that when i 1st heard this term, it sounded very odd and artificial. i think it was the russian speakers a couple of weeks to even learn how to pronounce it without stumbling. having said that, do you think now says in all fashion has ever been a problem in more than day ukraine? a modern day? remember who i did was that was the nazi, but i do, i do not know enough about the, you know,

the politics. so claim today it to be able to respond to it. i must say that, you know, this sentences sounds very strange to the western ears. and even here in italy we have, you know, a population a, i think, you know, if i would have to advise mr. booth and i would advise him to use a different sentence to justify his is the will. now, can i brought in this out towards the issue on now? isn't because i think the address on, on to killers of why me, i, you know, exceptional or secret nature of any given. and the 2nd i thing is the, this issue of the, of the end of history that history has some pre determined more. and as we know,

people are, was trying to bring that about, is that a concept that is being reliable? not only let's say in ukraine, but also more broadly movies that you consider most of the chosen people. so and nobody, you know, things that just to say any of those and that's it. but you know, many nationalities, things out. and so this is a list. and again, i think that this choice of who owns it was not is a best one. you mentioned that the just consider themselves the chosen people that you're not trying to impose your way of life and you're quite restrictive about who can join your, your people's rules for that. but when we look, let's say in the american constitution,

they not only define themselves as exceptional, but also see themselves as a, the ultimate judge, almost the replacement of god. i wonder if this russian, american rivalry over the years is partially spiritually based over whether one country can be the ultimate just what, what is good and what is evil in international affairs. i refrain from making normative judgments, but it's, you know, every church believes it and it has a direct line to, to gun and a christian it though. so america it, which is actually becoming less and less. so it is not the different form is a viable one that was in the center,

not especially was also the church in russia, but they believes that is that a viable in? no, it's all in design. you know, it's coming back. absolutely, but i think a self conscious nation wants to build its own, you know, heavenly, jerusalem, and that's for sure. but i think very few nations, in fact, only one nation, please that you know, this is the one the only have only jerusalem, you know. and the russian also allows for the multiplicity of gardens. the question is whether the americans are ready to leave, even after these ukrainian crisis, whether they are ready to accept, then they can be a multiplicity of developmental pass in the world. and that not everything. and not everybody will play to tune. i would agree, is it so is it missionary strain in american foreign policy?

and this is why we have those complaints for democracy. and the campaign for human rights which is really blue ridge, national interest of the united states. and this is part of america. and there are some positive sinks about it, some negative things about that. but this is towards that. so is a mission mission of israel, sometimes in american foreign policy, and which is not prismatic, when you displace too much of this type of desire will be moral and imposed. it's morality on the hello. now and one of your articles, he pointed out that you're creating an experience and being last one on one as you put in the roof last russian neighbor, i will reinforce israel's belief in south

protection doctrine that in the times of crisis, you can only rely on yourself, even if you nominally have very, very strong ally, do you think israel will be the only country to, to draw such lesson or do you think there will be more countries that now? so relying on hooley, on, on the power of american deterrence. i think we see in the middle east the clear with development in that direction because americans are signaling or the so we have ministration obama come and there's a by nurse questions that they don't want to be as i me please. they want to retreat and to focus on the chinese challenge. and as a result of that, as outgoing feels, particularly among those so that both producing countries said, so we're really main was out to shield against the ha no i to will. so is, and as

a result of that, of course we see and the alignment was isn't and, but is, well definitely has the self reliance. milton. from the very beginning, this is also a jewish experience. and i am at a disdainful, says a, you know, zone i, investor guarantees on up the world much and her, i think, same king as made the mistake, hoping that the west will intervene on their behalf. and despite those a hell, said the worst case providing to claim, but no single american soldier cost the same crumbled. can i also ask you about here because you're up to a very long pass, this is spell and now seems to be more willing to invest into its own designs. in a sense that is very visible in germany, germany very dramatically rose from expenditures. is that something

natural to be expected, or is it something to be well worried about in historical hindsight, a made the mistake of the end of the call believing that they are going into a paradise. and those are national security problems. so will be sort of after the defeat of the soviet union. so i'll go home and this is a awakening for you. well, i'm not sure how don't get to a less and maybe it will fail. you know, is this dilemma between the guns? i may fail to be, but those are those in use, the money for guns, but this remains to be seen but clearly. so there's a change of ethical within, you know, in many or countries in on is

a show for national defense. i guess it's my final question a you mentioned this choice in butter and guns. and clearly there is also an economic damage that's coming to all sides from a very harsh sanctions introduced by europe and the united states. you mentioned before that your ultimate test for foreign policy is how well it serves national interest based on that, the thing the policy of sanctions is good enough for the europeans because it seems to be hurting not only the russians only the europeans, but also much of the much they will, that has absolutely nothing to do with you know, a, all the arguments in russian, the way that we're really economic sanctions. we're really successful in no america. i, sanctions against iraq against cuba for many years and didn't change behavior

of the country. so they need to suffer and to pay heavy price for continue was their policy a i don't really much if for as a sanctions for with a change i was a calculus. so fashion leadership. and of course the committee will be seen. we shouldn't forget that is a sanctioned how those those, the, with the you up in particular is dependent on russian energy russian weight. so it is, so, you know, in every world we have 2 equations. one can cause a mold damage, but or so another equation was the countries that can take a most definitely no, for looking at history. i think her russia is displayed their willingness

to a cost. well, what it believes, it's too well. i agree with you, but i also think that russia definitely has showcase capability to suffer a lot. but it also has demonstrated a willingness to reach some sort of a compromise speech with israel. tricky or many other contentious neighbors and partners. i hope the west can also learn from bad news only. yeah. possibly know. give out. com will be the people on the station. oh, okay. it clearly delray has already and i was not going to join, but they don't think so. russia miscalculated is a competent, so if it's melissa we focus and that will 2nd phone, you know, it's more polco crane by then. no one said, you know, one more piece. it's ok. so maybe this will be, they'll come in

a bug or washington. well, time they'll tell of it for the time being, we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your insights. you're welcome and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on with me. 030 with

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