this is the future, is the one that is defined by the victim. by the way, hitler was not a big bully. if you would ever put more attention to the nuclear issue rather than non gauge massage that you might have been the victim. would it be so psycho history? i doubt that now the tensions between russia and the west, especially over ukraine, have been building for quite some time a couple of years, no decades. and yet, when i interview western experts, they always point out that the russian actions in ukraine, however disagreeable they may be, are totally unprovoked. they see this totally unprovoked, certainly coming out of the blue. do you think that's a delivery? that's the station or is it a genuine blindness on that part that they somehow missed the last couple of years of the very tenuous relationship. it's been our size. i can understand for

security dilemma, somebody that tries to defend himself and accumulates both military power to defend itself at the same time project is set to its neighbor. so this type of situation saline i, i definitely understand is her desire for larger margins of security. a, we have to remember that nato expended is 12 closer to a lesson, but with those and when it was promised to do the kremlin willis at that time. so you know, this will not happen. i, i'm pretty sure that the not the doesn't have any offensive inventions, but at the same time, it's really difficult to dismiss. that is the feel of russia is

a historic feel. so renovation forms of funds away. so this is precisely the problem of a security dilemma. or in bar, i'm you from here from the next person, right. need to doesn't harbor any explicit intentions in russia. but, you know, looking at some of the recent actions by major members in libya or in syria, you know, they, maybe they were not intentional, but they happen not to last. i mean, is it really so crucial to, you know, have these written as a statement of purpose that a tac rush or rather than, you know, we're seeing from the reality perspective and seeing what nature members have done militarily in recent history. i think i have been understanding was that

obama and well, i mean, we select the lessons in libya and the silly i think by the law says justly or not as it is a middle east. so they think that there, but i don't mean that as americans disagree and instead of sitting down and trying to divide, you know, divide zillow. this is the obama, this is my palm. and then tied to exist as it was doing the called the law. and i think it's a great time understanding in the west on how to run foreign policy. they become too liberal or have illusions about what the international relations please. and this result of that for me,

mr. sections on both sides. now. 6 i think it from your writing that you take the fulfillment of national interest rather than morality as the ultimate measure of any policy you wrote that and then we'll be hearing that no country is allowed to gamble on its very existence. and i think that's pretty clear and how israel conducts itself on the international stage. but if we look at the ration from that perspective in russia, have a choice and then to act militarily with ukraine becoming increasingly militarized and increasingly hostile to russia. this is what i want to clarify. a country has no white, no model to commit suicide. and so for a test to act upon its internet internationally, it's national interests. those choices, though he's a choice to surrender or so. so i show, obviously as many choices and the so let me let the really know though to

defend its national interest in ukraine for this was following the serious, those little warnings to so if but say it was didn't take it seriously. and i'm not making any judgment a judge. i can understand your behavior over states that once we have a lot of money to kill it this way once a week. and then i would like to point out that it was to some extent that was all caution when you leave next to a big bear like russia, you have to because that's all i have a chuckle about russia, russia being there. i think we're a little bit more civilized than leaving that but you know, in that the perception, so be i want to ask you about

a country where is that the addition of using phones now is really, you know, that you can obviously go, yeah, absolutely. and israel is also is by being much smaller, it's also a country that takes in survival very seriously. and you are definitely not shy about striking targets on the country territory. and i think to some extent, israel's, of course, projection projection relies on its adversaries knowing that some sort of richer vision is inevitable. so i want to ask you whether you think that the drastic actions that she's now taking in ukraine is that there at least partially conditions on the russian being has a tend to flip all as to your math and for way too long. have russia reacted earlier and more forcefully when the current prices have been avoided? doing things it could have been by yeah,

i really bye bye not to states paying attention to russian security concerns. oh, so by yeah. z hubris. oh, fuzzy, crenan, leadership and not the understanding that there are certain anxious may go vocal russian sensitivities. and day is the result though we have no, it will deny which is not the really nice thing. people who lose their lives, cities, i will destroy it. but this is this spelt of wall now, within the western camera, israel has a very interesting position because it tends to whoa last side, many western resolutions condemning russia's behavior, but it is also non dismissive of russia security concerns what the

israel's game or the israel or rationale in this company is a national honestly clue no or no on hand. we also know dependent on the not it's a sponsor, what's the, what's the cause of free will. and then we are going to want to be american care. on the other hand and not file form, well i leave, am 0 sion sammy in syria. and though we reach an agreement to coordinate to our military actions, there was a very minute action against any intelligence, which is something which is extremely important to his national security. and we want to make sure is that this so called the nation a continuous, which is dependent upon a russian goodwill in the national interests. and so we try to balance our no participation in it. what's called a western can,

it was listed position is a v n a which is a name and to have to take it because we are not acting idealistically. i think the general outlook cove is really fun policies and quality . and as a result of that, we are trying to balance those through interest, which is not going to be on india is doing the same amount of companies are doing the same without the loan. in what you call this game. lashley any boat. and you have to take into consideration it's national interest. and when we act this unity, you mention reference presence in syria and i think one out of country to mentioned here is turkey. and i think you would probably agree that in syria,

russia was both firm and accommodating. it was respectful turkeys and israel's central security considerations. but it also could be power on some of the actions when, when it deemed in them. so that allows me to conclude that the lease with israel and turnkey interior, russia has learned how to differentiate the various uses by power and why didn't work the same way with your brain. mike lee was doing a quick math when he decided to intervene on a dig into a situation is wally and play a a new class basic is always know is currently those sheep. and which is that, and i would say to not the lashlin and, and i'm out,

it was ideal for being part of the view. it has didn't play a game. and as a result of that, and as i mentioned, this is one of these proposals we are witnessing now, since i mentioned turkey, you know, that it's a very challenging partner for both russia and these are especially under prime minister, and i'm at a prime minister. yeah. that's my mistake president. how could i forget that? but anyway, he's been a really, was with here. he's been in powerful way for quite some time and 2001. yes. and our countries have gone through the periods of acute crisis and very pragmatic relationship. and we managed to restore some sort of partnership

after the very precarious incident back in 2015 when the church shut down a series, which was taken in moscow as a staff in the back. and yeah, it's worked towards restoring some sort of a problematic relationship. good serve as a model for, you know, future adversaries to that serve as a model for either russia and ukraine going forward, or perhaps russia and the way going forward. basically my knowledge and this is what we see developing is that is all again between the united states and its allies and the, and i am and does a lot of times when i like i had a different leadership and there's a to come to the st. you the com, you know, don't like you see joe. i differently the blows of like the united

states doesn't have it. kissinger at this times that understands international politics. understands politics and understands that sometimes you have to accommodate your lease because they have ran national interest. and den i international relations, unless you are extremely strong, you can get it in by we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments station. ah, mm. mm. oh ah, is you'll media a reflection of reality in

the world transformed what will make you feel safe for hi selection whole community? are you going the right way or are you being that some with what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted you need to descend ah, so join us in the depths will remain a, a, [000:00:00;00]

a will the partner with and frame in for president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor in bar on one of the proposed gold rush and military operation in ukraine. he's the so called to see cation and i have to say that when i 1st heard this term, it sounded very odd and artificial. i think it was the russian speakers a couple of weeks to even learn how to pronounce it without stumbling. having said that, do you think nasa is an old fashion has ever been a problem in modern day? you're praying a modern day. remember who i did was that was the,

not the but i do, i do not know enough about the, you know, the politics. so claim today to be able to respond to that. i must say, you know, this sentences sounds very strange toward the western ears. and even here in italy, we have, you know, a population a, i think a, you know, if i would have to advise mr. put in, i would advise him to use a different sentence to justify his is the will. now, can i brought in this out towards the issue on now says because i think the address on, on to killers of why me i, you know, exceptional or secret nature of any given. and the 2nd i thing is the, this issue of the,

of the end of history that history has some pre determined more. and as we know, people are, was trying to bring that about. is that a concept that is being reliable? not only, let's say in ukraine, but also more broadly movies that you consider most of the chosen people. so and nobody, you know, things that just to say any of those and that's it. but you know, many nationalities, things out. and so this is a list. and again, i think that this choice of who owns it was not is the best one you mentioned, the just consider themselves the chosen people that you're not trying to impose your way of life. and you're quite restrictive about who can join your, your people's rules for that. but when we look,

let's say in the american constitution, they not only define themselves as exceptional, but also see themselves as a the ultimate judge, almost the replacement of god. i wonder if this russian, american rivalry over the years is partially spiritually based over whether one country can be the ultimate just what, what is good and what is evil in international affairs. i refrain from making normative judgments, but it's a church believes it, and it has a direct line to, to gun and a christian it though, so america it, which is actually becoming less and less. so it's not the different form

is a viable one that was in the center, not the specialist was also the church in russia, but they believes that is that a viable in? no, it's all in design. you know, it's coming back. absolutely, but i think a self conscious nation wants to build its own, you know, have only jerusalem of that for sure. but i think very few nations, in fact, only one nation plays that, you know, this is the one you only have only jerusalem, you know. and the russian also allows for the multiplicity of gardens. the question is whether the americans are ready to leave, even after these ukrainian crisis, whether they are ready to accept, then they can be a multiplicity of developmental pass in the world. and that not everything. and not everybody will play to tune. i would agree,

is it so is it missionary staying in american foreign policy? and this is why we have those complaints for democracy. and the campaign for human rights which is really blue ridge, national interest of the united states. and this is part of america. and there was some positive sinks about it, some negative things about it. but this is towards that. so is a mission mission of israel, sometimes in american foreign policy, and which is not prismatic. when you displace too much of this type of desire will be moral and imposed. it's morality on the hello now and one of your article, you pointed out that you korean experience being last one on one as you put in the roof,

less russian neighbor. i will reinforce israel's belief in south protection doctrine that in the times of crisis, you can only rely on yourself even if you nominally have very, very strong ally. do you think israel will be the only country to, to draw? that's lesson or do you think there will be more countries that now? so relying on hooley, on, on the power of american deterrence. i think we see in the middle east to clear with development in that direction because americans are signaling or the so we have ministration obama come and does a by nurse questions that they don't want to be as a me please. they want to retreat and to focus on the chinese challenge. and as a result of that, is that going feels particularly among though, so that boy will do seen countries said so well the man was out the shield against

the ha no, why don't i do so? and as a result of that, of course we see. and the alignment was, isn't and, but is, well, definitely has the self reliance. milton. from the very beginning, this is also a jewish experience. and i am at a disdainful, says a, you know, zone i, investor guarantees on up the world much. and her, i think, same king has made a mistake, hoping that the westwood intervene on our behalf. and despite goes ahead, said the worst case providing to claim. but no single american soldier cost the same crumbled. can i also ask you about your because you're up to a very long pass, this is spell and now seems to be more willing to invest into its own designs. in a sense that is very visible in germany,

germany very dramatically rose and some expenditures in that's something natural to be expected or is it something to be well worried about in historical hindsight, a made a mistake of the end of the call believing that they are going into a paradise and those are national security problems, so will be sort of after the defeat of the soviet union. so i'll go home and this is a awakening for you. oh, i'm not sure how don't get to a less and maybe it will fail in this dilemma between the guns. i though i may prefer to be, but those are those in use, the money for guns, but this remains to be seen but clearly. so there's a change of ethical within,

you know, in many or countries in on is a show for national defense. i guess it's my final question a, you mentioned this choice in butter and guns. and clearly there is also an economic damage that's coming to all sides from a very harsh sanctions introduced by europe and the united states. you mentioned before that your ultimate test for foreign policy is how well it serves national interest. based on that, do you think the policy of sanctions is good enough for the europeans because it seems to be hurting not only the russians only the europeans, but also much of the much of their will. that has absolutely nothing to do with, you know, a, all the arguments in russian, the way that we're really economic sanctions. we're really successful in no america. i,

sanctions against iraq against cuba for many years and didn't change behavior of the country. so i need to suffer and to pay heavy price for continue was our policy a i don't really much if for as a sanctions will change a calculus. so fashion leadership and of course the commission will be seen. we shouldn't forget that is a sanctioned how those those, the, with the you up in particular is dependent on russian energy russian weight. so it is, so, you know, in every world we have 2 equations. one can cause a mold damage, but also another equation was the countries that can take a most definitely no,

for looking at history. i think her russia is displayed their willingness to a cost for what it believes. it's too well. i agree with you, but i also think that russia definitely has showcase capability to suffer a lot. but it also has demonstrated a willingness to reach some sort of a compromise speech with israel. tricky or many other contentious neighbors and partners. i hope the west can also learn from bad news. ok. possibly know why they've outcome will be the people on the station. oh, okay. is there a way that he's not going to join, but they don't think so. russia miscalculated is a competent. so if it's melissa, we focus and that will 2nd phone, you know, it's more polco crane by then no one said, you know,

one more piece it's ok. so maybe this will be, they'll come in a bug or washington. well, time they'll tell of it for the time being, we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your insights. you're welcome. thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on with me. ah,

with with both both the models you need to do both got nothing smooth with a grain. nobody. a lot of them bought a a with

with, with, with the russians state will never be on the most 19 with 55 with will ban in the european union. the kremlin. yup. machines. the state aren't russia today or jesus both. thanks. even our video agency, roughly all band to on you to a,

with ah, luscious defense ministry. he says it has opened another exit window for ukraine's remaining force is inside. the dumbass city of mario paul had been offered a fresh chance to surrender peacefully. but so far, the fighting back has been raging on here on the periphery of the i'll go to steal a nod to industrial comp loud. as you can hear, the battle rages report from the final front line inside marielle paul, where russian lead forth is launched. the latest assault against he has troops earlier on tuesday, russia foreign ministers of the country had no choice but to send troops to protect