ah ah mm hm. mm mm. a history gravitating to some more has to be in the one of the most generative and most destructive western concepts. giving rise to johnny and both marxism and liberalism, with a conflict in your brain rekindling the own disputes about the right and wrong

sides of history. still a chance for russia and the west meeting somewhere in the middle to discuss with them now joined by a friend in our president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor invites great to see you great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. my pleasure. you wrote recently about the seemingly existential political need to be perceived as being on the right side of history. if we tried to put all of the central baganda out of it and look at it from historical and perhaps psychological perspective, what time do you need this righteousness? i don't believe in high psycho history, basically is the history is written by the victim of the walls and good narratives that remains a is a few. joe is the ones that is defined by the victim. by the way,

hitler was not a big boy. if you would have put more attention to the nuclear issue rather than long gauge, besides that, you might have been the victim. would it be the right side of this story? i doubt that. now, the tensions between russia and the west, especially over ukraine, have been building for quite some time a couple of years, no decades. and yet when i interview western experts, they always point out that the russian actions in ukraine, however disagreeable they may be, are totally approval. they see this totally unprovoked, totally coming out of the blue. do you think that's a delivery? that's the station or is it a genuine blindness on that part that they somehow missed the last couple of years of the very tenuous relationship. it's been our size. i can understand for security dilemma, somebody's a tries to defend himself and accumulates both military power to defend itself

at the same time. oh, j. a said to its name. so this type of situation saline i, i definitely understand is her desire for larger margins of security. a, we have to remember that nato expended is 12, close the door lushin. but with those it, when it was promised to do the kremlin new, will else at that time? so yeah, this will not happen. i, i'm pretty sure that the not the doesn't. how about any offensive intentions? but there's the same time, it's really difficult to dismiss. that is the feels of russia and to have historic feel. so renovation funds are her funds o. s. so this is precisely the problem of a security dilemma,

or in, i'm you from here from west next prison, right? need to down harbor any listed as the intentions in russia. but, you know, looking at some of the recent action by the members in libya or in syria, you know, they, maybe they were not intentional, but they have not the last. i mean, is it really so crucial to, you know, have these written as a statement of purpose that a one to attack russia rather than, you know, we're seeing from the reality perspective and seeing what nature members have done militarily in recent history. i think it has been understanding obama and well, i mean, we slipped in libya and silly i seen by the law just leo,

not it is a middle east. so a things that they're like doing told me that as americans disagree and instead of sitting down and trying to divide, you know, divide zillow. this is, you know, part of this is my palm. and then die to exist as it was doing the cold, below. and i think that there is a understanding in the west on how to run a foreign policy. they become the, to liberal or have illusion about what the international relations please. and this result of that for me miss those options on both sides. now, i take it from your writing that you take the full of national interest rather than

morality as the ultimate measure of any policy you wrote that and the whole team here that no country is allowed to gamble on its very existence. and i think that's pretty clear and how israel conducts itself on the international stage. but if we look at the ration from that perspective in russia had the choice and then to act militarily with ukraine becoming increasingly militarized and increasingly hostile to russia. this will allow him to clarify, a country has no white, no model to commit suicide. and so for a test to act upon its internal international, it's national interest. those choices, though, he's a choice to surrender or so. so i show obviously as many choices. and they chose to act mean it's a really, you know, the to defend its national interest in ukraine and good.

this was following the silliest owning it, but so it was, didn't, they could see this thing and i'm not making any judgment of judge. i can understand their behavior overstayed that once a month to kill it this way once a week. and then i would like to point out that i was, to some extent was out caution when you leave next to a big bear like russia, just because that's all i have a chuckle about russia, russia being there. i think we're a little bit more civilized than leaving that but you know, if that's the perception, so be i want to ask you about a country where is that the addition of

using phones now is really, you know, that you can obviously go, yeah, absolutely. and usually is also, and it's like being much smaller, it's also a country that takes in survival very seriously. and you are definitely not shy about striking targets on the country territory. and i think to some extent, israel's, of course, projection projection relies on its adversaries knowing that some sort of richer vision is inevitable. so i want to ask you whether you think that the drastic actions that she's now taking in ukraine is that there, at least partially conditioned on russia being has a, tend to flip all as to your math. and for way too long. russia reacted earlier and more forcefully when the current prices have been avoided. doing things that this would have been by yeah, by merely by united states paying attention to russian security concerns.

oh, so by yeah. z huber lease. oh 1st. oh, crenan leadership and not the understanding that there are certain anxious may go vocal russian sensitivities and day. as a result though, we have no, it will deny which is not the really nice thing. people who lose their lives, cities, i will destroy it. but this is this spelt of wall now, within the western camera, it has a very interesting position because it tends to whoa side any western resolutions condemning rushes behavior, but it is also not dismissive of russia security concerns what the israel's game or the israel or rationale in this company is a national honestly clue. oh no on hand. we are, you know,

dependent on the united states and what's, what's the cause of pretty well. and then we on, i want to be american care. on the other hand, and not file form when i leave a luscious so me in syria. and though we reach an agreement to coordinate our military actions with against the radiant on it, which is something which is extremely important to his national security. and we want to make sure that this so called the nation a continuous, which is dependent upon russian goodwill in the national interest. and so we try to balance our no participation in it. what's called the western cam. it was listed position is a v

n a which is a name and to have to take it into consideration. we are not acting idealistically. i think the general outlook cove is really fun policies. and as a result of that, we are trying to balance those through interest, which is not going to be on india is doing the same amount of companies are doing the same without the loan in what you call this game. but ashley is any boat. and you have to take into consideration, it's national interest. and when we act, if you seen it, you mentioned russia presence in syria. and i think one out of country to mentioned here is turkey. and i think you would probably agree that in syria, russia was both her and accommodating. it was respectful of both turkeys and israel's central security considerations. but it

also could be power on some of the actions when, when it deemed them this. so that allows me to conclude that the lease with israel and turnkey interior, russia has learned how to differentiate between the various uses of power and why he didn't work the same way with your brain. so i agree with you as a when you decided to intervene on a gene take into consideration as a william plays a, a new claim for basic is always know is currently those sheep and which is so i would say to know until i shouldn't and, and i'm out, it was ideal for being part of the view. it didn't play

a game. and as a result of that. so, as i mentioned, this is one of these before. so what we are witnessing now, since i mentioned turkey, you know, that it's a very challenging partner for both russia and he's really, especially under prime minister and i'm at a prime minister. yeah, that's my mistake president. how could i forget that? but anyway, he's been in po way too slow quite some time. is it really which way? here. he's in powerful way for quite some time and 2001. yes. and our countries have gone through the periods of acute crisis and very pragmatic relationship. and we managed to restore some sort of partnership after the very precarious incident back in 2015 when the church shut down

a series, which was taken in moscow as a staff in the back. and yet it's worked towards restoring some sort of that kind of magic relationship good serve as a model for, you know, future adversaries to that serve as a model for either russia and ukraine going forward. or perhaps russian, the west going forward. basically my knowledge and this is what we see developing is that is all again between as united states, it's allison, the and i am and there's a little time when i am a leak. i had a different leadership, and there's the 2 countries like, you know, doing like you see joe hey, i differently the blows the flag says, united states doesn't have it's kissinger at this times that understands international politics. understands politics and understands that sometimes you'll

have to accommodate you because they have ran national interests and day in my international relations. unless you are extremely strong, you can get the present in bar. we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments stationed. ah ha mm with ah

ah, welcome back to will the party with and frame in for president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor in bar, one of the proposed gold rush and military operation in ukraine. he's the so called to see cation and i have to say that when i 1st heard this term, it sounded very odd and artificial. i think it was the russian speakers

a couple of weeks to even learn how to pronounce it without stumbling. having said that, do you think now the fashion has ever been a problem in more than day ukraine? a modern day remember who i did was there was the nazis. but i do, i do not know enough about the politics. so claim today to be able to respond to it. i must say that, you know, this sentences sounds very strange to what the western is and even here and it's where we have, you know, a population a, i think, you know, if i would have to advise mr. put in, i would advise him to use a different sentence to justify his the will. now can i brought

in this out towards the issue on now says because i think the ip address on on 2 pillars. one is this idea of exceptional or secret nature of any given. and the 2nd i thing is the, this issue on the, on the end of history that history has some predetermined more, as we know, people are, was trying to bring that about. is that a concept that is seeing reliable, not only let's say in ukraine, but also more broadly movies that you consider most of the chosen people. so and nobody, you know, saying that this is any of those and that's it. but you know, many nationalities, things out. and so this is about the low nationalism. and again,

i think that this choice of who owns it or not is a best one. but a, you mentioned that the just consider themselves the chosen people that you're not trying to impose your way of life. and you're quite restrictive about who can join your, your people's rules for that. but when we look, let's say in the american constitution, they not only defined themselves as exceptional, but also see themselves as a, the ultimate judge, almost the replacement of god. i wonder if this russian, american rivalry over the years is partially spiritually based over whether one country can be the ultimate just what, what is good and what is evil in international affairs. i refrain from making normative judgments, but it's, you know,

every church believes it and it has a direct line to, to god and a christian it though. so america it, which is actually becoming less and less so it's not the different form. revival, no one that was in the center of the specialist on both of those children in russia, but they believes that is very valuable. and you know, it's all in design, you know, it's coming back. absolutely. but i think a self conscious nation wants to build its own, you know, have only jerusalem and that's for sure. i think very few nations, in fact, only one nation plays that. you know, this is the one the only have only jerusalem. you know that. and the russian orthodox allows for the multiplicity of gardens. the question is whether the

americans are ready to leave even after the ukrainian crisis, whether they are ready so that they can be a multiplicity of developmental pass in the world. and that not everything. and not everybody will play to tune. i would agree, is it so, is it missionary staying in american foreign policy? and this is why we have those complaints for democracy and the campaigns for human rights, which actually blue ridge, national interest of the united states. and this is part of america, and there are some positive sinks about it though some negative things about it. but this is towards that. so is a mesh mission of israel, sometimes in american foreign policy. and which is not prismatic,

when you displace too much of this type of desire will be moral and imposed. it's more on the hello now and one of your articles you pointed out that you korean experience in the last one and one as you put in the roof last. a russian neighbor, what will reinforce israel's belief in south protection doctrine that in the times of crisis, you can only rely on yourself even if you nominally have very, very strong ally. do you think israel will be the only country to, to draw? that's lesson or do you think they will be more conscious that they'll stop relying on hooley, on, on the power of american returns? i think we see in the middle east the clear with development in that direction because americans are signaling or this. we have ministration. obama tom and

there's a by nurse questions that they don't want to be them. it is they want to retreat and to focus on the chinese challenge and as a result of that. so those are going feels particularly among those. so that boy will do seeing countries said so will remain without a shield against the hon. no, i do. so is, and as a result of that, of course we see and the alignment was excellent. and, but is well definitely has this self reliance doctrine from the very beginning. this is also a jewish experience. and i am at a disagreeing false as a you know, 09 fit after guarantees on afterwards much. and i think same king as made a mistake, hoping said so, westwood intervene on our behalf and despite goes ahead, said the worst case providing to claim. but no single american soldier cost the

same crumbled. can i also ask you about your a because your after very long pass, this is spell and now seems to be more willing to invest into its own designs, even a sense. and that is very visible in germany, germany very dramatically rose the truth. is that something are natural to be expected? or is it something to be well worried about that in historical hindsight, being made the mistake of the end of the call believing that they are going into a paradise. and those are national security problem, so will be sort of after the defeat, those, the soviet union. so of course that whole thing. this is

a awakening. pull you up. i'm not sure i don't get to a less and maybe it will fail, you know, is this dilemma between the guns? i failed to be, but other than use the money for guns, but this room has to be seen, but clearly. so there's a change of attitude in your many or countries in on is a show for national defense. i guess it's my final question a, you mentioned this choice didn't butter and guns. and clearly there is also an economic damage that's coming to all sides from a very harsh sanctions introduced by europe and the united states. you mentioned before that your ultimate test for foreign policy is how well it serves national interests based on that. the thing the policy of sanctions is good enough for the

europeans because it seems to be hurting not only the russians, only the europeans, but also much of the much of the will. that has absolutely nothing to do with that . you know, a all the arguments in russian, the way we're really economic sanctions. we're really successful in no america, right? sanctions against iraq against cuba for many years and didn't change behavior of the country. so they need to suffer and to pay heavy price for continue was their policies a i don't really much if for as the sanctions will change those calculus. so fashion leadership and of course the may still be seen. we shouldn't forget that as assumptions how those those are with the you up in particular is dependent on russian and

o g on russian weight. so it is so, you know, in every world we have 2 equations. one can cause a mold damage, but also another equation was the countries that can take a most definitely no for looking at history. i think her show is displayed their willingness to a cost full well what it believes, it's too well. i agree with you, but i also think that russia definitely has showcase capability to suffer a lot. but it also has demonstrated a willingness to reach some sort of a compromise with israel training or many other contentious neighbors and partners . i hope the west can also learn from bad news. ok, possibly no outcome will be the people on the station. ok,

is there a langley? delray has already, and i was not going to join, but they don't i think so. russia miscalculated is a competent. so if it's melissa, we focus and that will set to the phone, you know, it's more polco crane by then no one said, you know, one more piece. it's ok. so maybe this will be, they'll come in, they build a bug met you know, washington. well, as i mean, we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your insights. you're welcome. and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on will the part mm

mm mm ah ah, is your media a reflection of reality? in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way or are you being that somewhere? direct? what is true? what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the

shallows. we're told one of the hallmarks of western liberalism is the idea and practice of dollars. or specifically, it is said, we should not judge an individual or group based on their race color or creed. but that apparently doesn't apply when it comes to russians. bruce, a phobia is the new bigotry or bush company watching it, or she actually read mildly on the sheet on their point to dish latorsha. laura tried that the she was she. yeah. i do have school g kids.