ah, a one of the most generous and most destructive western concepts, giving rise to a liberal with a conflict in your brain rekindling the old disputes about the right and wrong sides of history channel from russia on the west meeting somewhere in the middle of the discount that i'm now joined by for president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor invites great to see you, great to talk to you. thank you very much for time. my pleasure. you wrote recently about the seemingly existential political need to be perceived as being on the

right side of history. if we tried to put policy central baganda out of it and look at it from historical and perhaps psychological perspective, what do you need this righteousness? i don't believe in high psycho history basically is the history is written by the victim loans and the narrative that remains in the future is the one that is defined by the victim. by the way, hitler was not a big bully. if you would have put more attention to the nuclear issue, no longer that you might have been civic. so would it be so psycho, his story about that. now the tensions between russia and the west, especially over ukraine, have been building for quite some time a couple. this is not a case. and yet,

when i interview western experts, they always point out that the russian actions in ukraine, however disagreeable they may be, are totally unprovable. this totally unprovoked, totally coming out of the blue. do you think that's a delivery, that's the station, or is it a genuine blindness? on that part that they somehow missed the last couple of years of the very tenuous relationship. it's been our side. i can understand for security dilemma, somebody that tries to defend himself and accumulates both military power to defend itself. at the same time it is said to its name. so this type of situation saline i, i definitely understand her desire for larger margins of security. a, we have to remember that nato expended is 12 closer to

a lesson. but with those, and when it was promised to do the company knew what else at that time. so you know, this will not happen. i, i'm pretty sure that the, not the doesn't. how about any offensive intentions? but there's the same time, it's really difficult to dismiss the feels of russia and to have historic feel. so renovation forms from 0 s. so this is precisely the problem of a security dilemma or in, i'm you from here from western x prison. right. nathan doesn't harbor any explicit intentions, neither the russian but, you know, looking at some of the recent actions by major members in libya or in syria. you know, the, maybe they were not intentional, but they happen not to last. i mean,

is it really so crucial to, you know, have these written as a statement of purpose that a tac rush rather than, you know, pursuing from the reality perspective and seeing what nature members have done militarily in recent history. and had been understanding obama and well, i mean, we slipped the lessons in libya and the silly i think by the license just leo, not this is it is a middle east. so faith things that there, but i mean that is americans disagree. and instead of sitting down and trying to the right, no, the right, oh, this is the obama. this is my palm. and then i took my exist as it was

doing the called the law. and i think that there is a understanding and so on how to run a foreign policy. they become a liberal or heavy illusion. say about what the interaction relation to release and as a result of that misperceptions on both sides. now i take it from your writing that you take the fulfillment of national interest rather than morality as the ultimate measure of any policy you wrote that and then we'll be hearing that no country is allowed to gamble on its very existence. and i think that's pretty clear and how israel conducts itself on the international stage. but if we look at the ration from that perspective in russia, have a choice and then to act militarily with ukraine becoming increasingly militarized

and increasingly hostile to russia. this will allow him to clarify, a country has no white, no model to commit suicide. and therefore we test to act upon its internal international. it's national interest, the owners choices, though he's a choice to surrender or so. so i show, obviously as many choices. and they chose to act mean it's only in order to defend its national interest in ukraine for this was following a serious so wanting to so if but so it was didn't, they could to and i'm not making any judgment of judge. i can understand their behavior overstayed that once a month, to kill it this way once a week. and then i would like to point out that it was

to some extent was out caution when you leave next to a big bear like russia. you have to because that's all, i have a chuckle about russia, russia being there. i think we're a little bit more civilized than leaving that. but you know, in that the perception, so be, i want to ask you about a country where is that the addition of using phones now is really, you know, that you can obviously go, yeah, absolutely. and israel is also, and it's like being much smaller. it's also a country that takes it survival very seriously, and you are definitely not shy about striking targets on the country territory. and i think to some extent, israel's, of course, projection projection relies on its adversaries knowing that some sort of richer

vision is inevitable. so i want to ask you whether you think that the drastic actions that she's now taking in ukraine is that there at least partially conditions on russia being has a, tend to flip all as to your math and for way too long. have russia reacted earlier and more forcefully when the current prices have been avoided? things it could have been by, you know, i'm really bi united states, paying attention to russian security concerns a or so by the huge, please. oh 1st oh crenan leadership and not understanding that there are certain anxious may go vocal russian sensitivities and day. as a result though, we have no,

it will deny which is not the really nice thing. people lose their lives, cities i will destroy it, but this is this spelt of wall. now within the western camera, it has a very interesting position because it tends to whoa last side, many western resolutions condemning rushes behavior, but it is also non dismissive of russia security concerns what the israel game or the is and israel's or rationale in this company is a nationally clue no, no on hand. we are, you know, dependent on the not to say sponsor what's, what's the cause of pretty well. and then we are going to want to be american care . on the other hand, and not file form. well, i leave. am zillow sion, sammy in syria and though we reach an agreement to coordinate

our military actions with against the agent on it, which is something which is extremely important to his national security. and we want to make sure is that this so called the nation a continuous, which is dependent upon election goodwill in the national interest. and so we try to balance our no participation in, in what's called the western cam. it was listed position is a v n a which is a name and to have to take into consideration. we are not acting idealistically. i think the general outlook overs later on policy is the same. as a result of that, we are trying to balance those through interest,

which is not going to be on india is doing the same amount of companies are doing the same without the loan in what you call this game, nationally, any boat. and you have to take into consideration, it's national interest. and when we act, if you seen it, you mentioned russia presence in syria, and i think i went out of country to mentioned here is turkey. and i think you would probably agree that in syria, russia was both her and accommodating. it was respectful of both turkeys and israel's central security considerations. it also could be power on some of the actions when, when dean did them. so that allows me to conclude that at least with israel and syria, russia has learned how to differentiate the various uses of power and why didn't work the same way with your brain?

because of i agree was there was a when they decided to intervene on a jeep into a situation and place a ceiling. a new claim for basic is always know it currently those sheep. and which is that, and i would say to no idea and then i'm out. it was ideal for being part of the view. it didn't play a game. and as a result of that. so as i mentioned, this is one at least 4. so we are witnessing now, since i mentioned turkey, you know, that it's a very challenging partner for both russia and especially under prime minister. and i'm at a prime minister. yeah,

that's my mistake president. how could i forget that? but anyway, he's been a really with here, he's in powerful way for quite some time and 2001. yes. and our countries have gone through the periods of acute crisis and very pragmatic relationship. and we managed to restore some sort of partnership after the very precarious incident back in 2015 when the church shut down a series, which was taken in moscow as a, as a staff in the back. and yet, it's worked towards restoring some sort of a pragmatic relationship. good job serve as a model for, you know, future adversaries to that serve as a model, either russia and ukraine going forward, or perhaps russia. and the way going forward is basically

a my knowledge. and this is what we see developing is that is all again between the united states. if it's allies and i am, and there's a lot of times when i am a leak, i had a different leadership and there's a 2 countries you know, doing like you see a i differently the blows the flag the united states doesn't have it. kissinger at this time just understands international politics, understands politics and understands that sometimes you'll have to accommodate your lease because they have ran national interest and day in international relations. unless you are extremely strong, you can get a present in bar. we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments. ah

for 13 with a with a grain already. a lot of them bought a nissan

levy and he's africa. sonya with the 1st one of the of them with with ah ah, welcome back to will the party with and frame in our president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor in bar, one of the proposed gold rush and military operation in your brain is the so called

cation and i have to say that when i 1st heard this term, it sounded very odd and artificial. i think it was the russian speakers a couple of weeks to even learn how to pronounce it without stumbling. having said that, do you think naps as an old fashion has ever been a problem in modern day? you're praying a modern day. remember who i did was that was the nazi, but i do, i do not know enough about the politics. so claim today to be able to respond to that. i must say that, you know, this sam sentences sounds very strange to what the western is and even here and it's where we have, you know,

a population a, i think a, you know, if i would have to advise mr. put in, i would advise him to use a different sentence to justify his is the will. now can i brought in this out towards the issue of nasa because i think the address on on 2 pillars. one is this idea of exceptional or sacred nature of any given. and the 2nd, i think is the, this issue on the, on the end of history, that history has some predetermined moral, as we know, people are, was trying to bring that about. is that a concept that is seeing reliable, not only let's say in your brain, but also more broadly movies that you consider most of the chosen people. so and nobody, you know,

saying that this is any of those and that's it. but you know, many nationalities, things out. and so this is a low nationalism. and again, i think that this choice of who it was not as a best one. but a, you mentioned the just consider themselves the chosen people that you're not trying to impose your way of life. and you're quite restrictive about who can join your, your people's rules about that. but when we look, let's say in the american constitution, they not only defined themselves as exceptional, but also see themselves as a, the ultimate judge, almost the replacement of god. i wonder if this russian american rivalry over the years is partially spiritually based over whether one country can be the ultimate

judge of what, what is good and what is evil in international affairs. i refrain from making normative judgments, but i know every church believes it and it has a direct line to, to gun and a christian it though. so america it, which is actually becoming less and less so it's not the different form for revival. know when that, with in the center, not especially when you go to the church in russia, but they believe there is a revival in it all in design. you know, it's coming back. absolutely. but i think any self conscious nation wants to build its own, you know, have only jerusalem and that's for sure. i think very few nations, in fact,

only one nation plays that. you know, this is the one and only have only jerusalem. you know that. and the russian also allows for the multiplicity of gardens. the question is whether the americans are ready to leave even after the ukrainian crisis, whether they are ready just that they can be a multiplicity of developmental pass in the world. and that not everything. and not everybody will play to tune. i went to greece, it's a missionary stain in american foreign policy. and this is why we have those complaints for democracy. and the company's for human rights, which yesterday blue ridge, national interest of the united states. and this is part of america and 0,

some positive sinks about it though some negative things about it. but this is towards that. so is a mesh mission of israel, sometimes in american foreign policy. and which is not prismatic, when you displace too much of this type of desire will be moral and imposed. it's morality on the hello now and one of your article, you pointed out that you korean experience being last one on one as you put in ruth, less russian neighbor. what will reinforce israel's belief in south protection doctrine that in the times of crisis, you can only rely on yourself even if you nominally have very, very strong ally. do you think israel will be the only country to draw that's lesson or do you think they will be more conscious that now still relying on hooley,

on, on the power of american attorneys? i think we see in the middle east the clear with development in that direction because americans are signaling or the so we have ministration obama, dom and does a by nurse questions that they don't want to be as a please. they want to retreat and to focus on the chinese challenge. and as a result of that, her as outgoing feels particularly among those. so that boy will do seen countries said so willingly man was out to shield against the hon. no, i do so and as a result of that, of course we see and the alignment was excellent. and, but is well definitely has a self reliance. milton, from the very beginning, this is also a jewish experience and am discerning false as a you know, zone i, investor guarantees on up the world much. and i think same king has made a mistake,

hoping that the westwood intervene on behalf. and despite goes ahead, said the worst case providing to claim, but no single american soldier cost the same crumbled. can i also ask you about your a because your, after a very long pass this is spell and now seems to be more willing to invest into its own defense. perhaps even a offense. and that is very visible in germany. germany very dramatically rose expenditures. is that something a natural to be expected? or is it something to be well worried about that in historical hindsight, being made the mistake of the end of the call believing that they are going into a paradise. and those are national security problems,

so will be sort of after the defeat, those soviet union. so i'll close that whole thing. this is a awakening for you. well, i'm not sure how don't get to a less and maybe it will fail, you know, is this dilemma between the guns i make will fail to be, but those are those and use the money for guns. but this remains to be seen but clearly . so there's a change of ethical within, you know, in many or countries in on is a show for national defense. i guess it's my final question a, you mentioned this choice in butter and guns. and clearly there is also an economic damage that's coming to all sides from a very harsh sanctions introduced by europe and the united states. you mentioned

before that your ultimate test for foreign policy is how well it serves national interests based on that. the thing the policy of sanctions is good enough for the europeans because it seems to be hurting not only the russians, only the europeans, but also much of the much of their will. that has absolutely nothing to do with, you know, a, all the arguments in russian to where we're really economic sanctions. we're really successful in, oh, america, right? sanctions against iraq against cuba for many years and didn't change behavior of the country. so they need to suffer and to pay heavy price for continue was our policy a i don't really much is for as a sanctions, fuller change? i was a calculus. so fashion leadership. and of course the may still be seen. we shouldn't

forget that is a sanctioned how those those are with the you up in particular is dependent on russian n, o g, a russian weight. so it is so, you know, in every world we have 2 equations. one can cause a mold damage, but or so, and i don't equation it was the countries that can take a most definitely no for looking at history. i think her show is displayed their willingness to a cost for what it believes. it's too well. i agree with you, but i also think that russia definitely has a capability to suffer a lot, but it also has demonstrated a willingness to reach some sort of a compromise with israel. tricky or many other contentious neighbors and partners.

i hope the west can also learn from bad news only. yeah. possibly know. positive outcome will be the people on the station. oh, okay. is there a kindly delray has already and i'm not going to join, but they don't think so. russia miscalculated the, is a competence of its military forces, and that will set to the phone. you know, it's more power, go grain is by didn't. no one said, you know, one more piece. it's ok. so maybe this will be the outcome. it may be, you know, like met the, you know, washington? well, as i mean, we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your insights. you're welcome. thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on will. the card

with we're told one of the hallmarks of western liberalism is the idea and practice of dollars. more specifically, it is said, we should not judge an individual or group based on their race color or creed. but that apparently doesn't apply when it comes to russians. bruce, a phobia is the new bigotry with

moscow called on cuba to order its troops in a besieged steel factory. mar, you pull to release any civilians and surrender scores of civilians have managed to flee from the vicinity through say, fruits set up by russia. i know that we were living in the basement for 2 months. we are very happy to see you guys. stay alive and now you are evacuating. right. my sister and 3 nephews, a russian lead forces continued their assault on the last stronghold of neo nazi as of troops and marble as a safe evacuation route from the.