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hello and welcome to cross thought, we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. we're told one of the hallmarks of western liberalism is the idea and practice of tolerance. more specifically, it is said, we should not judge an individual or group based on their race color or creed. but that apparently doesn't apply when he comes to russians. do so. phobia is the new bigotry ah. cross stocking russo foby, i'm joined by my guess arthur. clearer in toronto, he's a liberty advocate and freelance editor and oh hi. we have all of our, boyd barrett, he is a professor emeritus of journalism and public relations at bowling green state university, as well as author of russia gate and propaganda. and here in moscow we crossed to robert bridge. he's an american writer and journalist based in moscow or

a gentleman, cross sack rules in effect. that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate arthur. let me go to you 1st in toronto. what happened to the liberal tradition? i mean, it seems of all crashed. i mean, every single minority group a marginalized group, we have to have tolerance, we it, we hear it all the time. 247. but there's one exception, it's russians apparently go ahead in toronto. it's, it's interesting because there's a are almost a rejection of that original liberalism that the, the west kind of developed. lastly, while and it's turned into a new religion. i'm a new state religion almost in which there's something called repressive tolerance and, and that is based in this kind of neo marxian, postmodern ideology that is very rand throughout throughout the western general pharaoh. that sort of gets found here. oliver. if i go to you very early in california, i'm, you're,

you specialize in these kinds of things here. are you surprised of the, the, the ferociousness of this kind of cancel can, i mean, we, you know, this is canceling of an entire people of an entire culture. now i only a few weeks ago, months ago is a no, we don't like the good this government, but we like the people. they don't even apply that. now go ahead oliver. yes, i am somewhat surprised by the veracity of it. there's nothing new about raso phobia, of course, has gone back or i would put it at least as far back as the crimean war of 18. 5th, 1853 and and probably from, from before then and, and because we saw the crew, the bolshevik revolution, and the long error of the cold war. when we came out of the cold war, we were to discover that apparently communism or the absence of communism had actually nothing to do with us russian relations. but we still had to keep

thinking negatively about, about russia. but here's the thing. i would say, peter, is that when it comes, every nation has done his black periods. some nations have got lots of black periods, but uh, the western media western establishment thought usually allows some light on to these otherwise black periods. despite the fact of the treatment of, of native americans as the issue of slavery in the united states. and that number this, in our history, is in media histories of the united states. these things do not loom to the law, but in the case of russia, in the case of russia, no light is allowed and day. there you have the death, really, of liberal, is them and liberal, thought it was got a robert here in mosque. i mean, robert, if you don't mind me say, i mean you do have a russian family, have

a brushing wife. you have, i children that night, depending on how you want to describe russian, american, or american russian. i don't know. um, this must be very painful for you because you know, you and i have lived here for a very long time. being one of the oddities of this, russo foby as you and i, as americans living in russia, we feel no discrimination against no anxiety, no hatred whatsoever. 0, okay? and but, you know, when you look at, you know, in the west you, you have this, this demon ization of an entire population of people. it's culture and it's civilization is something i've never seen before on this scale. go ahead robert. yeah. what, go, surprise me peter. is this the hatred that something that really, really becoming from the grassroots level. i know russians in america and they're getting along fine with their neighbors. although there, of course, exceptions to that rule. but in general, seems to be that the pressure is coming from the top from the governments in the corporations and organizations, the ones that should be really discouraging,

this type of, let's just call it race. this attitude, offering example you have in the united kingdom this there. he just suggested that russian players, they'll have to, i think if they wish to participate in wimbledon in the summer, they may have to disavow probably this involved a lot of your. i mean this, this is like, this type of humiliating arm twisting or doing this little metal. and it even invaded the world of chess. for example, the now the russian chest just players there. they want to get out of the european union. they want to join the asian just union are they don't want to put up with it . they don't want to tolerate because you can't, you can't blame them. and what is so striking, i think about this type of behavior, is that you didn't see this type of cancel culture, virtually signaling when george bush, for example, was bombing iraq, or brock obama was bombing libya. you didn't have any corporations leaving the united states. you didn't have the boycotting products,

you didn't have them walking out, you didn't have mcdonald clothing. and if you could really make the argument to that, russia has a real justification. warming the west now for many years, decade about nato advancement. they've been warning for 8 years about the bombing of the don bass and by killing a russian speakers there, but it's just continues. and so the hypocrisy is just off the chart. when robert, you know, you're putting context into this and that's why you're not allowed to do no context allowed. ok, you gave it some contacts here. go back to arthur here because it's not about politics. it's about a people, it's the, the nature of these people. that's what this is all about. that's what racism is all about here. they can't leave this liberal mindset, can't even comprehend that they are propagating racism against a large group of people collective guilt. go ahead and toronto, well, it goes back to what i was bringing up at the very beginning. that whole content, the ideology, that is what we have to realize is the west is not

a liberal democracy. at this point in time, we are infected with an ideology that has nothing like liberal democracy. and it does see people as either oppressors or oppressed. and in this case, it's these russia, the oppressor, therefore russia and its people. and it doesn't matter who are what are nuance or anything like that. cancel done. and when we realize that the west is doing it to itself as well. yeah, there's almost no western country i know that isn't practicing the same sort of cancellation, same sort of antagonism towards people within its own borders. it's . it's surprising, it was amazing to see how that they could do it at such a broad scale to an entire country. but this is something that most of us who are champion deliberate in any sort of way have been fighting against for prompts a decade now. ok, oliver. i mean, what is an obvious historical analog here and it's mccarthyism. and i would say that it's far worse now because mccarthy isn't, was idea,

logically driven. it was about an ideology was about communism. it wasn't about a people per se, in this case, it is. so this is a new mccarthyism that propagates bigotry in racism. your thoughts go ahead. yes, i think i agree with you the probably this is even worse than the mccarthy era back there. and there was not a hot war between the soviet union and, and, and the united states. i would argue a despite pretenses to the contrary, i would argue that now there is a hot war. oh, war has actually broken out. i very united states, united states, nate her and russia. so that, that is a huge difference. but back then that there was a real anxiety and concern about our of nuclear weapons, but nobody was expecting that nuclear weapons would start being used there. and then whereas right now,

it will not worried unconcerned. a nuclear weapons could be used whether intentionally or as a result of some kind of miscalculation or accident. and then we are being extremely foolish that that is the reality that a greater than any other time of my life. i was born in 1945 after the other one great classic case of nuclear weapons being used by the united states or to finish off what a claimed it needed to use the nuclear weapons to finish off a world war 2 to finish off japan. although i think many historians which were say they were not necessary and their use was, was not justifiable at that time. and they didn't help to bring about the end. well, because that was evidently when that begs the point. robert, if i can go back to you here, i mean, so, banning people for russians from participating in the, on the boston marathon,

you already mentioned chess. we have musicians. how, how does that change anything? how does that change the political calculus except for punishing individuals? because of the way they were born, go ahead. yeah. really, it really doesn't change anything. peter. it's just basically, as you said, it's a form of racism. get in this whole cult, we're really caught up in a new, new wave of some, some kind of insanity from the west default cancel culture. and you know, you can build up vilified, come out and vilify white people. for example, come right out and talk negatively about them. you can have critical race theory now that promotes this whole idea that under underline, this whole nother form of racism. so when you look at russia and how they're going to be able to, to how they're going to be able to rank in terms of such a ideology that's taken over much of the west, it's just getting worse and worse every day. you can't,

you can't criticize anything. you can't speak audience. i think even comedy died in the west. you know, yesterday was black lives matter. and, you know, despite the fact that that group was searching neighborhoods across the nation that was deemed ok, you know, today it's, i mean, there are right now there are, there are participants of the january, 6 in so called insurrection sitting in prison right now. they and hollywood, hollywood celebrities are about to bail them out like they build out the b l m program. so i'm just giving like the background of this and russia the way it is, the fact that it's such a convenient scapegoat for so much wrong in the west. it's a nice distance distant enemy, so to speak, that they can point to escape go. they're not going to fare very well in this new type of ideology that just wants to. it's like an inquisition really. yeah. and brushes the perfect perfect target for this. it's been building up for a long time in hollywood. russia has always been the bad guys,

always been billing. and now you have it when, when you have this particular conflict with robert, i will say there is, there is downside from this. and we're going to discuss that in the 2nd part of the program or a gentleman. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break and job right now. we'll continue our discussion on bruce of all be a say with for ah ah

oh is your media a reflection of reality? ah, in a world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation for community. are you going the right way? where are you being led? somewhere? direct. what is true was is great. in the world corrupted, you need to descend so join us in the depths

or remain in the shallows. ah ah ah welcome at to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing russo phobia ah okay, go back to toronto. i can't believe a case is being made on a massive scale with the entire corporate media behind it. the entire political class. they're trying to convince us, in so many words, that this world will be better without del scale escape goggle tchaikovsky, et cetera, et cetera. how can they make that case?

go ahead. i'm mystified. well, i mean, again, going back to what we've been dealing with here in the west for, for the last 10 years, they be making that case again. shakespeare making a case against churchill or against thomas jefferson or george washington. it's not . once you're going after your own founding fathers, it's not difficult to good boy, cancel an other. but it's interesting what i find even more, and i think it should be terrifying for anyone over on this side of the world is the ease at which they're able to circle the wagons and cancel something as, as a bath, as a country when you have any sort of model, it's like that, whether it's incorporation or government or anything, you're facing problems even without the political aspect, you're facing problems just for lack of competition, lack of good ideas, like a fresh anything. so it's really an issue and we're going to be feeling it. i mean, we already are feeling it on our side of the world right now. it's far as economic kicked political backlash from, from our own sanctions. yeah. it,

there's sometimes a, well, i always you can and ring a bell and i think we're going to be faced with that oliver. you, what you said, the origins of bruce's phobia. go back to the crimea and more i would even go further. i've got the poli arctic wars, but it doesn't really make any difference. it's interesting to me that we go back to that are probably on a wars to the present. we've had different types of political environments, different government regimes, all car id, ology, everything you can imagine. but the root of phobia just stays the same. it never really changes. it's really quite remarkable. ok. my question to you is here. i talked about the antecedents here, but i'd like to go suddenly much more immediate and that's russia gate and it seems to me and roberts already brought it up here. this is still the kind of the revenge for 2016. and it's m a. and because it's very convenient, it's easy to, to rally the forces. it's easy to intimidate progressives. importantly,

recreate was very important thing to get the progressives under control. and now we just have an extension of it because it's the only tool in the toolbox. go ahead. yes, sir. interesting how propaganda is very difficult to kill a propaganda campaign. and in fact, when we come to russia is very useful not to or to, to prevent a previous propaganda campaign from dying out completely. so because it just makes it so easy to build on previous propaganda campaigns in this instance, against russia or against the, the soviet union, your population is already riled up against your chosen enemy and is just so convenient to be able to remind them of that residual anger or fear that they have on the previous propaganda campaign. and then to exploit that for whatever it is your, whatever your comment up as, as are there. the interesting thing about russia gave, of course,

is that it had virtually nothing to do with with right? absolutely. right, i had everything to do with the democratic party into whose interest it was, it was propagated, and now we still find it even within the last few days for further revelations from the john durham investigation. so there we go. we got 3 threads of different kinds of lies that are being told, investigate 1st. first of all, that trump is in some way or was in some way beholden to vitamin vladimir putin. thus, the basic lie of the, of the e. now, a under undermined steel report, and then we got the lie about russia being so somehow in cahoots with a russian bank, the, the alpha bank that that, that, that is being demolished as we speak. and then we have the whole, i about russian intelligence hacking the computers of the,

of the democratic campaign, and a, as a result of the suppose it a investigation while i have another question for you, oliver. ok. so get, let's, is, think back of all of the reports on cnn, and bas m, b, c, even fox, you know, a, b, b, c, of all the reports on russia gate. do you think that they should actually be deleted because they were misinformation because 17 years of my work was disappeared. okay. i mean, so, i mean there's a very interesting double standard here. let me go to robert here. you know, robert, one of the interesting things is that i think you've also noticed living here is that the west lives and its own eco chamber all the time and its ideology. because all of the rooster phobic statements that are made in the west or just televised here in moscow, the average russian sees exactly what the west thinks of them as of people and a country. i wonder what effect that will have because as i have said,

and i'm always considered a bit of a hard liner, they don't like you, they want to destroy you and now i have ample evidence. 247 of evidence of what i've been saying for years. take it away, robert. yeah, that's true. i feel bad for all these company that did leave moscow with russia and they left behind a huge market. and i think a lot of that i'm speaking about the economic point of view here they think are going to come back and that the russians are just going to be so happy again to be able to the big macs and french fries again. and they can all be back again in line . no, i think they're going to be mistaken. there's apparently they're still paying the rent on their property. they're still paying him the employees, at least i think they are. i hope they are. but i think when they try to come back here, they're going to be in for a rude awakening from the russian public. you know, they see this, this blatant hypocrisy, this real hatred. this is just nasty and i even wonder, i'm sorry for speaking about the economic side of it,

but even have to wonder if russia is thinking it's worth having these big corporations here. they're just going to not you rush is trying to enforce its own foreign policy and it's being held hostage by these corporations and company or things get tough when they don't like, what does they say? oh, i'm sorry, we're going to close up shop now we're going to come back with things a little bit, pull up. why can't wait to see how that's going to work? how this is going to pan out the next time america decided to bomb somebody. and what happens then, are these corporations going to close up shop there in the west, in the, in the european capital? somehow, i don't think so. really, you know, it's interesting, arthur, is that again, you know, that the west having its own eco chamber because they don't realize how much they alienate people around the world. particularly in the case that we're talking about in russia being, being talked down to and being mismatched like that, it really hurts hard because, you know, give to give a little bit of context, which i know western media doesn't like to do. is it in the don bath for 8 years,

up to 14000 people were killed. they were basically ethnic russians. nobody pulled a starbucks out of anywhere because of that. okay, it's a matter of most public to the west. i've never even heard of the don bass until february 24th. that's very insulting to people that have been, have lost lives and family. go ahead and toronto. of course. well, there's in the west right now for anyone who's, who has half a brain. there's a crisis going on and it's a crisis of trust in basically every institution. but journalism and media have been at the center of this crisis for a very long time, probably longer than even we are aware of. you know, it's the same story, is what happened with syria in 2014, all of a sudden people who had no idea where syria was on a map and never heard of someone named assad prior to that also knew exactly what syria needed and exactly who this man was and how bad he was. and it's the same

thing they didn't hear when, when, when things started to heat up here. and in canada for example, about the russian incursions ukraine. the same time yemen was being bought and it's been being bombed for years. now, we don't know the average. katie has no idea that's happening. the average american probably has no idea either yet we are sponsoring so it's just a matter of that spotlight. where is that spotlight being shown at this point in time? because you have that coordinated effort. they show on the spot line where they want your attention to go. well, it's go back, it's good. all right, i'll tell you one thing. they don't want to talk about when robert and i have discussed this for years with our russian fan and friends, is that these are also a national as neo nazi groups in ukraine. and nobody in the west wants to talk about that. and as we come up to the anniversary of victory day here in russia because it's still celebrated, it's very important, the victory over fascism. the russian public sees that it's fighting it again in

the 21st century in a neighboring country that's not reported in the west. go ahead, oliver. well, unfortunately we, we've seen this also. we saw it in russia gave, we've seen it in pretty much every international crisis in which the united states has been a participant, the has had an interest. so that is to say that there is a, a monolithic ah monochromatic narrative that is spam by a buyer at western media and for so long and still today. unfortunately, most people in the wessa, beguiled by the myth of control to the media, is always controlled by the state over the media with are recognizing that a corporate controlled media are just as programmatic as a state controlled media. there are even times when a state control media are actually quite a, quite

a bit more defendable van of and corporate controlled media because of the interest of corporate media in, in profit and capturing eyeballs in order to sell them to, to advertisers. but there's much, much more than that going on in when we, when we ponder this up phenomenon of western subjugation to the foreign policies of west m, a governments and you have to accept the fact the corporate media are part of much larger corporate empires. ah, who's continued acceptability to power? depends on that being cooperative in spinning the kinds of narratives that the one that the boss is want and the boss is what it war is very profitable here. i'm robert. i'm going to go here to you last 30 seconds of the program. and, you know, there's that the most you hear very often, you know, most americans didn't know where ukraine was before this conflict started. i bet

you my bottom dollar. they still don't know where it is. what do you think, robert? i think i think peter, before anybody post the emoji, ah, ukrainian, the flag on media. they should at least be able to tell you several things, like what the main uprising was, what was the means protocol, who would step on bendara, the ukranian nazi collaborator, who many, many people fighting now and ukraine. for example, the i was off the top only in seem to admire and honor. and that's why russians are there right now. partially, and it is really terribly ironic that you have the main nice celebration coming up . and russia basically finds itself in the stage, fighting alone against the fascist. well, that's really a terrible irony is a terrible irony to and the program. and i want to thank you, robert, specifically for talking about context, which is absent, did western media as all the time. we have gentlemen many, thanks them i guess in toronto, ohio,

and here in moscow. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c, you next time remember crossed up a ah, [000:00:00;00] with a

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