you go loud. yeah, let's say 20 years ago. then leave iraq. but no one was banned from the tournament. and that time during the war. thanks for joining us, having off the internet and we're back in 30 minutes. see the ah ah hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle, the u. s. and it's nato allies claim they are continuing to send massive military aid to ukraine. at the same time, washington appears to have no interest in a negotiated end to the conflict. this makes the question, what is washington's policy gold? could it be direct conflict with russia?

from sucking the ukraine conflict and joined by my guest, john brawley in new york. he is a political analyst, as well as a former foreign correspondent in russia and like jackson, we have daniel nick adams. he's the executive director of the ron pol, institute for peace and prosperity. and in london, we have marco gassett. he is international affairs commentator or a gentleman, cross stock rules and effect. that means he can jump in any time he want. and i would appreciate, daniel, let me go to you 1st in lake jackson. my question in my introduction is very, very simple. what is washington's goals in this conflict here? because this massive a sending of arms to ukraine, which nobody knows where it goes to out who's the end user. if it's going to be sold on the black market. one, the problems with western coverage of this conflict is that ukraine is notorious for its corruption. i mean, it makes some corruption in russia blush. i can guarantee you that. so what is

washington's goals here? because it seems to me that they're calling the shots. not mr. zalinski. go ahead. daniel, it seems to me, this is the most incompetent handling. major foreign affairs issue in the history of the world. i don't believe that washington has a clue what it's doing. the only thing that's driving the policy right now was the military industrial complex every week. now for the last 2 or at least 2 or 3 weeks, we see a new $800000000.00 military, a package going to ukraine. you know, after a while these $800000000.00 weekly checks are going to start adding up. right. so you have the u. s. sitting massive amounts of military last week, the president. well, the president's people met with a top u. s. military manufacturer saying hey guys are going to ramp up production. they said great. the ceo of raytheon has been open about what a massive profit this is turning out to be for his shareholders. you seeing a policy driven not by us national interest,

but by the special interests of the military industrial complex and the special interest of people like victoria newland who let's not forget is ukrainian and she's got to be with the country or for origin. and she's fighting it out on the world battlefield and the rest of us were having to pay the price for it. yeah. and john, i don't see how the ukrainians benefit from all of them, but i suppose i'm being too picky. go ahead, john. yeah, i mean, at this point, ukraine is just the protectorate of the united states of the nato empire. and it's just a tool to strike at russia. and i agree with what daniel said, but i would like to add, let's not forget the ideological component here. moscow, russia, as a country that openly says it protects traditional values, is the arch enemy of the global as liberal order. so there is a very important component here. they want to destroy a lot of important rule, and they would like to destroy russia. so this is really,

i don't want to say that it's not yet a total war because a total, what would be direct confrontation between nato and russia? what is just short of a total war? and the goal of nato is to destroy russia. they, i've spoken to people at the council and they really believe that they're going to, when they're going to destroy russia, and it's going to break up into different different regions. and then they, then they will be able to control and exploits. yeah, marco, i seem to remember the recently departed madeline albright asking, well, why should russia have siberia? echo? who it with john just said there, john, just before you go to marco, is it i agree with you? it's a civilizational war. ok, i think that that's a component most people don't understand. well because they're, they're ideologically obsessed and blinded. i would say, you know, marco, you know, you hear this theme i, i'm just completely bewildered by the ukrainians are winning the ukrainians are winning. there is no evidence of that whatsoever. and it seems to me that these

people like victoria new and are willing to fight russia indirectly to the last ukranian. and i don't think that's an exaggeration. go ahead, marco and london. they are and the longer the battle goes on, the more ukrainians will be eliminated from the planets. so it's a war indeed, as you say to the last ukraine, and indeed to the last amounts of ukrainian currency, valuable to return on to the land lease act by which a lower this age. so cold is appearing, you credit will have to pay for most of it with money. you don't have having been stolen in the ninety's by oligarch sending the 2 thousands by the western near liberalization policies there was forced to follow. so this is really war that is for you crime curtains in many ways unless it reaches a negotiated deal soon. if it does that, it has a future. if it doesn't, it's only going to pass. i'm not much of one either. daniel, i also said in my introduction to do they want to conflict with rush,

i mean total out out now conflict because it's very much in the cards because you know, you hear this, you know this article 5 article 5. ok. well, it's not so simple because if nato countries are sending arms the ukraine than they are co belligerent and then that doesn't that make them fair game in this conflict, we have to remember, ukraine is not a member of nato. you know, article 5 is not very clear here because article one is not being applied to meaning not getting involved in infants of conflict here. i mean, again, the public is, is misled here because at a certain point, the rushing to say you're sitting in weapons to kill our troops. i mean, we're going to stop that. ok. you, when warned, go ahead. daniel. that's literally the case in any conflict anywhere in history. it's always been the case. if you are arming the person, the country, that's killing our people, you are at war with us. and the thing that's most disturbing about this, peter, is that to this point, vladimir putin for better or for worse,

has done everything. he said he would do. he's made good on every promise, every threat. everything that he said last week, the russian government warned the u. s. a sent an official diplomatic letter saying stop sending weapons to ukraine, and the u. s. as it did in december, when the russians proposed a new security architecture for europe. again, they laughed russia off the stage and so there is a huge danger with u. s. officials up again refusing to to listen to anything. the president putin has said to discount it because that is sleep walking us into a direct conflict. it's only, it's, i don't know what it is, it's keeping russia from bombing, for example, maybe a staging ground in poland or in the czech republic. because as you say, these weapons are being used to kill russians. i and there's and under the laws of war justification for stopping it. i don't know how,

how far it will go. i don't know how far. busy pollutants patience will be on this . you know, marco, i, i an, a number of, um, media venues. i said before the conflict started is that this is very simple. when you're looking at what the kremlin has to say. they don't bluff, they act. and daniel just gave us the background about in december and in january all through february, the russian was saying, we're not kidding. we know we've sent you some proposals. you don't seem to take them seriously, but we are serious and we will take measures and you know what they did, so that the fact that they're shrugging this off now is just idiocy. go ahead, marco. well, it may be in a world of their own old use really because that to go back to the previous point about the message, the ukraine is winnie or western. i mean, there are about a 150 p r companies directly from washington and london losing with care feeding them the script,

the victory script to the mantra. so keep everyone motivated. so that's well in a way that they are listening to themselves and a biopsy, and all of the voice is pretty much from the west of a wage. so it's not surprising in a way that they believe their own message, which they constantly repeat. but obviously, the reality is that russia is indeed winning and willing to take the solution if it's not negotiated. so i would encourage the ukraine to stop reading the west, the mainstream media, all watching it, and to stop actually negotiating in seriousness. so reach a piece that everyone can actually agree on, and the which will end the violence of the bloodshed which is which the ukrainians are now the main cause, you know, john, one of the things this media blackout and throttling r t is a very good example here is that the western media doesn't really want to talk about the nature of the regime in care of the political forces that are in play.

the number, you know, obviously i've said many times in this program, but most people don't know that almost all of media has been nationalized in ukraine. political opposition has been outlawed. these things don't make it to be because we're fighting for you grange democracy. well, it's not and you know what, they had a democracy was overthrown in 2014. again, that doesn't seem to see through. you know, this isn't an amazing over the top propaganda program that the likes we've never seen. i mean, this is 2003 interactive pales in comparison. go ahead, john. i understand why you're so startled and we all are. but it's finally time for us to say that this is all obviously very deliberate because it's a deliberate policy of waging war against russia. they do not care about the truth . they do not care when i say they, the establishment in the western country, the nato countries did not care about truth. they do not care about freedom and democracy in human rights. they just have one goal, destroy russia,

at any cost. we just have to again, i understand why just thought that i am to, but we have to stop being startled. just to understand what their goal is. daniel did. the aim is to destroy russia. any, at any cost, even if it impacts their own citizenry in the west. because that's quite obvious right now. daniel. well, good since price. like, you know, i just wonder, every time i go to fill up my car, every time i go to the store, i see putin's price. i, you know, americans are not very patient with things like this. on the president said, there are 2 reasons why you're paying more cove it and put, and i just wonder how long they will be patient with this mantra as it starts state home. you know, all of the wars that america has engaged in. in the past 30 years, they've never impacted americans direct, right? they've all been hidden in the fed printing money out of thin air. americans haven't had to pay. this is the 1st time they're actually having to pay up front in

an indirect, but relatively direct way. so we'll see how long they'll be patient for this. the problem in the united states is we don't have an opposition party. we have to pro war parties. republicans are running on being more pro war than the democrats. so there is no alternative right now in the united states. we're single party state. well, you know, it's interesting as the 2022 elections come up. the, there was an empty lane and of course never count on the republicans for did to do the right thing. never count on a mil always will always let you down. okay. and is because public opinion is against this. ok. but of course, the republican leadership is tone deaf. i gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the ukraine complet state with with

only one main thing is important for knox. ism internationally speaking to that is that nations that's allowed to do anything, all the mazda races, and then you have the minor nation. so all the slaves, americans, proc obama and others have had a concept of american exceptionalism. international law exist as long as it serves american interest. if it doesn't, it doesn't exist by turning those russians into this danger is boy man that wants to take over the world. that was a culture strategy. so some golf out of it, on your own, i not leashed off to exhibit in tablet block. nato said it's ours. we moved east. the reason us, hey jim, it is so dangerous. is it deny the sovereignty of all the countries?

the exceptionalism that america uses and its international war planning is one of the greatest threats to the populations of different nations. if nato, what is bad shareholders in united states and elsewhere in large obs companies would lose millions and millions or is business and business is good and that is the reality of what we're facing, which is fashion with

a dish. welcome back. across, like, were all things considered? i'm peter bell, to remind you we're discussing the ukraine conflict. ah . okay. go back to marco in london, marco a few years ago before he passed the stephen cohen was on this program. it was such a pleasure to have him and john mearsheimer was also on and he was talking about the possibility of a world war 3 and new killer conflict, um nato, against russia. and i kind of pushed back gently against that. and he said, peter, i am very, very serious. we're on that path. prescient. at that,

do you think one of the things that really bothers me, i mean, i remember the anti war movement in the 1980s, you know, intermediate muscles all that. remember that very well. ok. and it seems to me like the rhetoric, the, the a, the very reckless rhetoric that comes out of the political class, particularly in the united states in the u. k. b that they're both the worst you k is the worst of the worst actually. um, they don't seem to, they seem to have forgotten the they the terror that we had in the 1980s of a new killer war. you remember like threads and the day after and all that, i mean, we were terrified. they don't seem to care, they seem to be immune to it. i mean, we even have members of congress a, everything's all the table, everything. you know, i mean this, rambo, type rhetoric is just, you know, it's very dangerous marco, what happened to the public. it really is very strange. the public effectually has disappeared from the discourse of the i really, real with astonishment when i have some pronouncements from u. k. positions as well as really talking about imposing no fly zones on puts in

the ukraine. and so it's astonishing to me that they could it all syrian seriousness be talking about this. and we have a ready, for example, the kevin regime doesn't distinguish between a big war for itself and the big war for the world. and it seems to imagine that if it gets nature involved in a war against the russian federation, that's going to be a good outcome which, which you cannot understand who they will be a little bit diluted in care. however, to c, u. k in western positions and in the us politicians joining in is, is worrying. indeed, because russia recognizes that it's complex, potentially with nature it would face the world. will ukraine used to be king on the world war? and if we have a policy, happy to have one or indeed a rogue elements, some went down the command structure. you might decide, unilaterally to take some acts that might have conflict with this. we all are all risky world war and the population is those fall in the west paid on

a di all. it's all ok and whipping the sleep, boots in, and that's all of it. should be and we'll have a cold shower to pay for it. that seems to be the western game plan. not a good one. i think if stanley cobra were alive, they could make a sequel to dr. strange love right now, i really do ok because we have the same cast of characters here. you know, john, one of the interesting russia is losing rushes, losing. well, i mean, i've talked to serious military people. there aren't serious military people on the west because they haven't want any wars. ok, they just excused themselves and they just get huge amounts of money. spent their way to lose ok in wars, they never should have fought but talking to military personnel here is that russians barely actually committed a very little of its armed forces for the reason why we're making this program. because they do plan on that nato may start something and they're prepared for it. okay, that's why there's, they haven't had this overwhelming force or keeping almost everything in reserve because they know the thinking or the lack of thinking in nato capitals. john,

go ahead. well as far as natal capitals, let's remember. so johnson basically a comedian biden, a senile old man of course, union ski comedian as well too. don't fuck a joke. so we have these western leaders in power who really are just not capable. they're not able, they should not be in those positions of power, but yet they are. which brings me to the conclusion that there is a power behind them and you can derive me as a conspiracy theories, please. i don't care. but i think there is a power behind these people and the goal, and i know this is going to sound radical, but i think there go is world war 3 and maybe even nuclear war. maybe you will have to stop exp, start entertaining the idea that maybe somehow a new nazi party has as arisen in the west. it's not announcing itself overtly, of course. maybe these people, the grandchildren, great grandchildren,

the original losses, or maybe they just inspired by not the ideology, but we can see what they're doing. we can see who they are by the results of what they're doing in ukraine. they are psychotic, mass murderers. that is what is happening in ukraine. they knew what was going to happen. hope the russian bear for 8 years and you think it's not going to react? no, i'm sorry. do not blame blood report and what's happening ukraine. i put all the blame on nato on western leaders. yes. you know, maybe maybe go ahead. yeah, i'm sorry. maybe it depends on what we mean by winning washington will feel that certainly in the short term, it's one of massive victories. but europe in its pockets, a supplicant. dependent in the future on energy supply resulted in political orientation on washington entirely. there's a new cut in between the europe and rock and the, and russian, the russian parts of europe in a white america has got everything it wanted in terms of european compliance. no

stream to is part completely for the moment. so initially the americans may feel very pleased with what they've got. they got an outlet for cells in a huge amount that we should remember that nature is indeed a just a vehicle on sales by the u. s. to to member countries. that's its main function of thought from a guy who is from the pentagon. so washington should feel or don't feel like the so please a moment. but what it doesn't factor in is what it's risky. it's. it's already lost . most of the rest of the world, which is not joining in yancey russia come by. and it's also in danger of losing your once when to say once industries in germany become uncompetitive, because they're paying sky high prices for the energy they need to make their products once. once the thing hits the fan, then you have a different you are going to different european attitudes. so washington is in danger of losing it all. so if i were in washington,

i think he will lonesome and tried to plan for a negotiated solution. however unpleasant that might seem to the hoax they daniel, i wish that way it could happen, but i just don't, i just simply don't. i mean, that's the rational path, because what just to kind of an extension of what we just heard from john and marco is that, you know, europe is flexing it's, it's really weak muscles, you know, and it feels really good about itself, but it's isolating itself from the rest of the world, the chinese are watching the child, the russians obvious are, these are not reliable people. these are not in tele and people that you can actually seriously deal with, you know, what happened between a december and in the time of the military incursion. is that the russians remember this very carefully, you can't talk to these people. these people don't tell the truth. they, they're out there. they have a different agenda all the time. and i and i, i personally think the, the peter, the great, great outreach to the west is over. it's completely, it's done. ok, because you can't trust these people. daniel, go ahead. well,

i kind of expected putin to give up this morning because you know, janet yellen walked out of the meeting on the russian, started speaking. and i can just imagine mister president, you'll never guess what happened. we've got to give up janet yell and walked out of our meeting. we're so depressed. but you know, of peter more seriously. i spent over a decade working in the washington foreign policy establishment. and the one thing that i found most astonishing is the absolute absence of intellectual curiosity among foreign policy practitioners. mean this is an absolute bubble in d. c. they read a couple of newspapers. they only speak to each other. they don't have any dealings with anyone who has different kinds of views. they never certainly want to talk to me because i read things that weren't approved. you know, i didn't only read the washington post in the wall street journal. and so you have a group of people who live in a bubble, who talk only to each other in the same language. they basically are spending the entire lives getting high on their own supply. and that's why you,

one of the reasons i think you have such a crappy u. s. foreign policy. it, john, you know, it's, it's very interesting because this, this, this elite mentality and it comes from virtue signaling, you know, something must be done. well, i mean, they'd so easy to say that ok, but the consequences of that we've seen that repeatedly, syria, libya, and the, you know, everything was going well in afghanistan until it wasn't going well. i mean, there's no learning curve here whatsoever. and it's, as it's been pointed out in the program already, is it policies that are be made in london and watch it in brussels, are affecting western citizens now energy, food. i mean, this is something the 1st time in my life, and this has happened. and i have to believe that's going to create instability. that's where you get to see they the apple cart turnover in it's not going to be pretty john. yes, that's possible. i mean, i guess your question is, will there be some mass discontent in riots and i mean, it's certainly as possible,

but the amount of social control here is, is tremendous and growing every day. and they're starting to implement something that resembles that social credit system. and a lot of americans are indebted and they're on the hook as you would say. and there's a lot of ways to exert control over the american people in the european people. and of course, the mass media is the greatest tool of social control us because there's so much pressure to conform. you don't even, i can't even say public that i once used to live in russia. if i would say that i simply lived in russia, i don't have to even voice any. and his ortho, russia, the fact that he lived in russia is compromising is enough to get me a lot of trouble here today. so i just say i live in eastern europe, i have to hide that fact. so it's, remember the mass media is a tremendous amount, a tremendous tool in the government's ability to control the population in europe and in the usa. you know, marco, i'm glad the john said that i've lived in russia for about 24 years. and even,

you know, even with this going on now, nato, when people have watch the nato's aggression, as an american living here in russia, i have no animosity directed to me whatsoever. 0, i'm a, i'm a foreigner, i wear a funny bow tie. and people are friendly to me, they want to be there, you know, actually overly friendly and you know, i, and i always feel the really sad that when i have my russian friends from r t that would go to washington or london. and they were treated in a very shabby way, and i just thought it's really interesting is that at one side hates and the other one simply won't go ahead marco, i think traditionally, russia and east european audiences have come about duration for america. is that kind of cultural imperialism thing, but there was a lot of liking in preschool. the idea is represented by the u. k. and the us, at least as not endemic in the, in the psyche we need in educational system,

all the russians to really pull school. and this ritual on the alba, which the supposedly pro diversity system of the you can, the us is so keen on doings. i mean, there is, is off of the main rush of the brand name is, is accompanied by hatred pretty much and it's a full on now, because the russians have chosen to exercise their use of force without waiting for the americans to approve of it, which is what the americans have been doing all over the world for no good reason whatsoever. the russians have done it for a very good reason. and on that point, they're gentlemen, we have run out of time. fascinating discussion here. i want to thank my guess in new york, london, and in late jackson, and thank our viewers for watching us here at our dc you next time. remember across the world news, the news

a ms. munoz carter to let you know if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out in about a quarter. don't put your human symbols on display a little speech nice. all right, so you guys don't talk to strangers. i avoid noisy

gatherings. a more actually your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty because you'll, russian, a specific social consignment. mm. oh, when i was showing wrong, when i was just a, becomes an advocate. an engagement equals the trail. when so

many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, western media outlets pick up a controversial and on verified ukrainian claimed that a boot like masika has taken place in the dorm bus to see as mario po. britton's prime minister tries to wear when dia towards supporting the western strong fun ukraine with forest johnson pledging a $100000000.00 deal package. during his visit to new delhi, they use talk diplomats admit there is no unity in europe on cutting energy ties with russia. for us president joe biden claims nato countries. i've 20 more united vanessa, please love residential neighborhood that was held by ukrainian nationalists

being poor out of.