now, this is a fine screen to talk to you. thank you very much for your time as well. let's see . now, you are literally in worlds apart from russia and ukraine in johannesburg, some 15000 kilometers away from where we are. how much attention is given to this conflict in your part of the world and how is it covered? the words is that really, you know, there's nothing better in the any way where that is in the all custom home to, well, the tank in model for right now where those bodies this there with that you're going over the discussion by love all with we did these things on time on this one and i must say, lou from the stops we have it. but it's our disappointments. am i the think

birthday is when attempts to send some news. we come from the limbs of nelson mandela. we come from the background and the history of a party. it was a home or 1st room your us and asked when the listeners must understand that the 0 on the a lot of them say in nazi germany. and after 945, they came here to start their own formal off numbers in or flashes and with a party. so, so from the length of next monday, we know what since i see we know what the war is. we'd know what aggression is and the news is we wanted to work to see everything they're supposed to do with the modern technologies. those are media, you know, that from the very beginning there has been a disagreement. oh, who are the main protagonist? whether it is neighborly, tries between a russian ukraine for the independence of ukraine,

or whether it involves some other actors as well? how do you see it? when i started by expressing from my slides yellow, our sense of goods. those very human beats in our stance on different groups to see what i can see, the brother and sister in law or ross, well this problem, africa who have been my ukrainians and by us it was breaking silence mcdaniels do so i me of all those who formed is the ha break receipt grub. i insist i gave of a sister. that's the 1st thing i want to say. we also bleed because remember, we did not have a counselor, but mom did belong to us. it belongs to the washes them than masses. when judges the last night and many, many puzzles,

won't be about the whole masters dogma. oh, my, who is a part of that? i was to discuss the use of the soviet union. my own was most school and i said this my whole watsonville group is also this one kid. i find that for our audience, because in your younger years, you trained as a military engineer in the saw that in lots of places around the soviet union. can i ask you this opportunity and ask you whether you saw any difference between the russians and the ukrainians at that time, political, ethnic culture? and do you think this war, this current conflict could have been avoided when that time the soviet union was not what it was, difference is the, could it be among the people in your thought of info on what i was with received by one group of people we never had to come in. i lived in central for the not this is of us. i lived in, in linen go after the time, so they, they called it

a little bit. but most of the time we lived in moscow. what i'm going to do maybe better the way that is live up, be a will of these things, but we'll see by one people i think for, for that that's why when the country of broken off in 1991 there's nothing we can do. but when this a little closer to taking place, it affects us as well. and we'll hope and we have what suggestions about how this thing must come to an end. because all was at the end of the mouse come to an end. when, before we talk about how it may and do you think it could have been prevented? absolutely, absolutely. and i would say what are state that in public? i'll state what is the said over even by mean other as the end of 1945 is not changed. the story is to r t. we had 2 organizations when the cold war we got we had not planned to teach

august and but also the thunderstorm. uh huh. impala these limited, sadly, organization. is there not a bumpy go guns? no guns. they pushed us for less than $45.00 until 90. tonight, some of it where did the cold war and so when that was so for did others over little was kept the life mental is a war or then the issue. so the big so the progress of mental health care for life and nobody can just do this and we're fight for the point where the people are seeing that nobody can see that. but yet we hear over and over again from western politicians from need. officials that need harbors no malicious intent. these are the russia. i did what, sam? okay. c. as a food o 5, the son who fought the struggle like use

a party where nato, kansas were helping him. what was natal doing now? think that why did government given them weapons has been the, even the big news that went on. yeah. because not tried to change used to, i know today's point, you know, who garage to drop those to you. but i'd like to get that done because you been in 5 got to fight against the attack was if it does become questionable by the full we may need to start, that will be, was russia when you do this? no, i think you'd be there. when i said that was still on this one to step most i'm going to did was about one off of route this land terrorists will come from iraq. celia and other have now come after got you does come to mind, you have come to long be next to us and they started the war here. this current

last year. me our so just because the danger is now next door, breast time off of that is fully at war to fight like use those. so not just a number of countries you want to call the south african development for which we went there because the data is a bit because the thought affected, nobody must lead to ask the words above what was done is to we can see therefore 2 things will happen the reaction that reaction or must go to some people. what's your issue now or to some people in most? what was the national security interests of russia didn't come. nobody must come with the story that there's no with we're coming to do an oil a day. but if it's not who this is, the roots organization doesn't come with. and now the shifting growth will short

range ballistic missiles, we understand that you're good. listen, you do that and it comes with it's all you don't need to persuade me that you know the russian security interest. i am bold, i will. i agree with you totally here, but still this is i think this is going to be one of the most painful conflicts for russian recent history. precisely because of what you said we have most of us have family members in ukraine. they have childhood memories in your brain. so even if they, you know, national security interest were involved, it was a, an extremely difficult decision. i will have to leave with the consequences of it for years and perhaps take it to come. now i want to turn to your own story because you have a very interesting story of fighting for what you believe to be your country's destiny, being an anti apartheid student. later joining the aren't organization of the african national congress. them being in, being in prison on the robin island,

but nelson mandela, et cetera. in those times, did you ever doubt what was right and what was wrong? how did you arrive at your own conscience and your own piece of, you know, making those decisions because, you know, fighting against what you see as injustice. you can do that. you know, in white glove. sometimes you take measures that you hate and still you have to take them the 1st on the philosophy i will struggle. oh, what is the struggle for liberation like yourself a form of madison and freshman was underpinned by chris for justice. wait 20. i days the races them and we plan with a whole lot of us american people supported us. mr. i didn't was one of the best of point us off associate is not posted. we will support that from you again,

bridget. so on. so, so we're given by the chris weighed quality for non racialism, and for justice when the police of our own country, all these go through that route, we're not faced with the problem with wait, wait, we approach the current situation with that kind of an i p live become that what the economy is lovely, so you are correct. yeah. and stuff and see what was your gun? yes. and one friend of mine is them is optim. what we can never accept as people when we did for social justice or human rights. is that hey, cliffs not he's been split in the world. and we're not part of the hate that that's the, it's a sport man. you must denounce to come to play tennis, no less than what to expect. if you could get an answer. for the sake of playing tennis or football, it will never happen. so it must. so in any case,

in all parts of the, of one of buying, it would've been russian people. that's what you're trying to people. we try both with the security interest or prison team. we also try with the national so that any c, or with a case with being so busy, does all sorts of things. these are good to be losing this country. but one thing we must also be trying to use your crate and those i present the lives you must be aware of that we are leaving for a voice. i mean, you was born in that is that the, when i was going to go to point to be the president that respect what must come and all of them realize that these people want to fight until the last you going,

you know, there was to put them wait week is the last when they used to play as 10 am for the buck must come in and who was a brand new light by model is a disaster. therefore, they must come to an end to say the 3 b discussion dialog and debates for now, mrs. if, while we have to put an end table discussion dollars in debate because we have to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah rich. ringback ah, is your media a reflection of reality?

in the world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation or community? are you going the right way or are you being led to somewhere? direct? what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah ah, well oh oh oh, oh i

i ah welcome back to say well, we employment in south african application, businessman and an ally of nelson mandela. mrc welling before the break, you mentioned that in your anti apartheid struggle, you were supported by people from around the world in the americans. but i know for a fact that nelson mandela, what might some time, i mean, this person who is now considered to be one of the carriers greatest areas of human conscience. he was considered

a terrorist that he couldn't receive an american visa for quite some time. when in your own perception, when did that switch occur? when he start was some being seen as a, as a, as a terrorist. and suddenly it became one of the same are good news for you. i'm to this day, i'm classified as a terrorist. i'm with to go this case with nelson mandela went to the white house and met president george bush and other people come to his eyes. and so one of the things i was lazy and like i said this question was this the big continue to be trusted? right, you know that is possible, but it's in my passport. i'm sort of a switch because we, we, we were having the cuttings and the own up austin the for the freedom of our people in america and other parts of the world to us. oh, well,

the part like we'll see where some of the people are supporting us and some of the people who i guessed us, but you know, when to become a president duplicates. i became a prim. yeah. it no. so modality seemed residents. and during that time up with level 3 in america, but when i went and talked to one of the business, you started showing my possible again, this was so i kept on being stop at the airport and i guess i will give them because i know the current administration, the time the best to change a lot. it was not so with us if i did it. but because we had one, you know, because we had prevails. it was no good music america to punch in recording us there was but i'm saying that i'm good people in the united states than anywhere else in the world are good people with what we have to do through and bates who dial through to promote discussions. we have to make sure that this war comes to an end of thumb is affecting us. it is not picking the world economy

yesterday, only the international monetary fund, whether it is worth, has downgrade the growth of the world. you know, because of what does everything not look, boys the but the sanctions because the both weights not the less than but because it and it's rock for any group of countries to dig it up. one of them sells to put a gun on right. it's if you played with marcia grier is do this. you play sports in, but rush, wind tunnel so everybody is good bye. so when you talk about russian, you're in a also posted to certain people and that will not accept because they're also the people in this world. but we believe that it was like the week there is a need for people to sit down and dissolve. unfortunately, the talk to, to have any bells, have not lexi there put to say the least did and, but i want to you as somebody i know very well present with high, again,

i know you said the didn't give me this meant the least. you almost ready to see you, but and then we've got the discussion inside. listen to the volvo, personal questions, them up. i think it is the easy thing to take the 1st step, but somehow people have got to find it. mr. second, a little bit because i have been calling for dial for quite some time. and i know you've been following these calls like from, it's very beginning, and i think it was in 2015 when you published an open letter to president putin. and president obama only was overcome the hubris and come to the negotiating table . and to some extent, this call was heated because president put in and present, right in math in geneva last year. and they talked about the origins of that disagreements. but the united states continued militarize in ukraine and continued

using its land to present the military friend to russia. isn't there a certain point when the dial needs to stop so that the other side, you know, understands that then you know, so using that dialogue to, to deliver harm, to its adversary, not my own own. our said that i know was going to be the soldier, goodbye. i'm us are come to us or through bright or more than a 100 years. so i understand this thing and whether i love of i feed, we can even play a role and plug well with, you know, the about 2 months and the prison on both sides. we have been in prison for more than 15 years. so i wanted to say that the time of value is always an opportunity to be seized. those who have not know what is that open him of life. i'll leave with all the leaders and i'm not talking for in your organization. i don't a lot of organizations business and so well as an international citizen and as

somebody will soon this be, we might not be that clever ot bug real wines. we've domains that we've seen this thing before because it will end up in dire list. keep the door open and i'll leave our brother in law school and open the hot dog did and yourself, i understand what you said, but it's time for it to just sit down, find a way even, you know, just to meet face to face. i know it's not easy to take the 1st step leader was going to give up hope for me. i live in that hope that no one that we we negotiate . we started talking with the enemy of the wish. it was we were still inside it. and this is a fall i, if the russian, any ukrainian people and the russian and ukraine leaders indeed decide to meet the thing. it's within the capacity of the ukrainian government of the credit

leadership to put on not only to sit and enter that war, but to implement the commencement that they may take upon themselves among which is for example, making ukraine neutral. i from what i hear of the russian, the official saying they don't want the ukrainian sovereignty, they don't want to decide anything from the ukrainians. what they want is new credit. you're going to try and stop presenting a strategic threat to russian militarily. as long as that is taken care of ukrainians are free to perceive whatever plane they see for themselves. but do you think this decision rather within key capacity or that it perhaps needs to be taken, taken elsewhere. and how would you persuade those powers elsewhere to commit to that? i know you're busy with poverty, but that's the essence of negotiation and deliberations and dialogue to promote discussion. those points are easy. are the points on to be handled as the discussion? because the 1st thing is decision of all these are hosted,

they did no more good fellow who kind of and linda can talk about the details of august guarantees. we also want those up questions for the debate. you can say do this before we go, then it's something that was negative, but where would you meet about uses? of course those things like that. but the subject of the discussion. so the only thing of m. c led, the brother was just like come to them. so discuss people come from outside and call more fuel into the situation. prisons the lives that are supposed to been to spend as the president with the strength of your own people. and that's what he's very passionate about, but be careful, but you play would not be controlled by others on those that you are with. so these, you have to do by doing, you know, a little bit about that is going to take a little bit of work. but let me give him a lot of people behind this off thing. this is the problem, this,

but tell us and of course, be recording weapons from outside and not be in the situation. we need more as to say more joe, joe, joe, not wall wall. so the people who are bringing weapons, you know, maybe time for the warehouse all the way off with that is what we are. but this must have, but definitely in this part of the world, we are not food all these, this the best things for that to go just to the end of the day. because questions and comments. as the end of the day, you are left on your own, because when people are ported bethel can i ask him very quickly about something that you mentioned before. the fact that this conflict is having on the rest of the world. and there are many express how warning about the growing danger, not hunger in developing countries because of the rising fuel and for the prices.

prompted by the, by the sections western sanctions against russia. isn't that also to some extent, a sign of supremacy when a 2nd part of the world can decide that everybody else can suffer because of his decision to penalize that's a rush or somebody else. he isn't that the very essence, if you will, of apartheid or fashion and how as the international community we can deal with that so that you, in south africa don't have to pay, let's say, for our russian mistake. because at this point of time, the most vulnerable countries are not even forced to carry the burden of the of the western sanctions. because the west doesn't like something about russia. the group is a group of it is a limited works. remember in the, in the solar system, where does the book take those communication from a police report is never such a high state. that's what happens on the thought part of the world. so this focus

is immediate in record time, but the point of a form or what will impose sanctions, let it clearly warfare against other people is affecting us. the work is the bed and all beats we feed into the pencil bombs, which we did with mrs. with almost every way we're not part of this, that's why we have got the rights. i would say, why does this black men's turkey who his right to the end of the world in sub i have well, the right to the citizens of the world, to point a finger at the wrong thing. that is deputy, we can kill the bidding of the sanctions because they go the functions, the unilateral. they're not united nation functions. we insult a live intent for 30 years. we asked from 9 to 60 to 9090. we had asked for counters to impose sanctions on south africa. they play jokes with us. the dogs with us, the sanctions on question have i had now. when they was in one day. we understand

the games are going to be all real things that we're asking for people to recognize the 48. and i'm going to say this for the last time. the danger of what is happening in that part of the well as you can have this wall breaking out into something else because of mistakes, incompetence, like less ness or a miscalculation you see, we're not the leader of the world in this part. one of the world nation, everybody including prison, putting i in danger because other people may take advantage of the situation. and so am you flat on top of the clearly lead us the white house, lead us the claim, lin, lead us prison zelinski. people have got to sit down and by the way is the decimal . if you don't, there was she was friends of the checks nipple sheet with you see done. it may

well get how the world war one more to ended. you know, what did it. but today we can talk with jamie people, but when you get on, you know, you, you think you something, but he's been gone for a buy a car for that shorter on both sides of the fence. these are all the children that don't does the boot colds and quite closed the door by donahoe the dawn with shades if the river by both washing any painting people you all belong to. mrs. farley, i called dad. so not only our past, but also our future, but we have to leave it there. thank you very much for your wisdom. i hope i have a stamp on this. but for the children live to school. there just conflicts comfort thinking. i think here it's our viewers for watching hope to see her again next week with

me. ah, ah, louis, are you no one? no, no, no, admiral, who are you? no, no. well dog, more shrill than what they should of unit 73. 1 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short, then build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the

world had ever. no real good, you know, to protect it. was it, is you or sure, doug go did that. they're not killed when you saw new rochelle. he on mom, mom. you know, margaret thought is meant nguyen from all one up on there and i got to learn much sale. i got ya. i understood, i wish to know about joy whole knew he didn't or guzzle more. polished enough, jr. let's i had to put the want us go there, mother and all everybody bill you hours. nice. oh boy, that's good to go on. want on this the world. she my and new other. i'm all i can send more or 7 mom. good student. i don't, the jojo,

i'm up or put them out that they give us a civilians have indeed died in the city of maria full. but once again, this is not a mass grave. each grave is individual r, t and independent journalists, find no evidence of mass graves near marty. you bolt the slide. stern media reports and he had zone claims up to 90000 people could be buried. their resident potent councils. the storming of a steel works in mario, poland, owners and blockade. instead this week, the site holds the last pockets of resistance in the area and says locals claim evacuation roots were sabotaged by nationalists forces.