a with mm ah, welcome to wells, a party that efforts to isolate loss, calling someone to west, comparing it to a parkway, to dial south africa, claiming that depression were to have its own nelson mandela government, which was to be ostracized. and the country's economy. boy quote, it is a viable historical lesson to be applied again, or perhaps to another international colonial thinking want to discuss. and i'm now joined by and talk to us at wiley and prominent african politician and businessman, and an ally of nelson mandela. this is a while, it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time as well. let's see. now, you're literally your worlds apart from russia and ukraine in johannesburg,

some 15000 kilometers away from where we are. how much attention is given to this conflict in your part of the world and how is that covered? the world is the global. i'm really, you know, there's nothing anyway where that is in the oscar to home to where they say thank you model for right now. whether it is body music is there with that you're going over the discussion by law with or that we did these things on time on this one and i must say you from the stops, we have it less our disappointments am i the think, but there's been an attempt to send some news. we come from the lens of nelson mandela. we come from the background and the history of our party, a party, it was

a for more fish resume your u. s. and s, when the listeners must understand that these are all on the a lot of them sitting in nazi germany. and after 945, they can start their own form of numbers in or fashion with the party. so, so from the length of next monday, we know one since i see we know what the war is, we'd know what aggression use and therefore the news just went on to the web. you see everything is supposed to do with modern technology media. you know that from the very beginning it, there has been a disagreement. oh, who are the main protagonist, whether it is neighborly, tries between russia and ukraine for the independence of ukraine, or whether it involves some other actors as well. how do you see

when i missed this started by expressing from my slides yellow, our sense of those rare human beats. and i sense of the progress to see what i consider brothers and sisters at wal ross on this marble ostrich us who have been helped by ukrainians and by russia was breaking silence mcdaniel's loose army. of all those who formed is the ha break received grub. i insist i gave of a system. that's the 1st thing i want to say. we also b, because remember, we do not have accounts, but it doesn't belong to us. it belongs to the question. the mouse is waiting to hear the mustang and many, many parts of the world give us the whole. marsha dogma, our whole, my home is a partisan part,

was to discuss the use of the soviet union. my own was most school, and i said this. my whole watsonville group is also different. it was what we find out for our audience, because in your younger years, you trained as a military engineer in that, in lots of places around the soviet union. can i ask you this opportunity and ask you whether you saw any difference between the russians and the ukrainians at that time, political, ethnic culture? and do you think this war, this current conflict could have been avoided when that time the soviet union was not whatever differences the b, 5 among the people in your thought of and so on for us, received by one group of people. we never had to go on and i lived in central for the not this is of us the point i lived in, in live in go after the time. so they, they quoted a group of it. but most of the time we lived in moscow, what i'm going to do,

maybe better the way that is about be aware of these things. but when you buy one people, nothing was it thus lighted. when the country is broken off in 1991, there's nothing we can do. but when this devil quoted this taking place, it affects us as well. and we'll hope, and we have what suggestions about how this thing must come to an end, because all was at the end of the mouse come to an end. when, before we talk about how it may and do you think it could have been to that of sort of and i will say what are stated in public? i'll state what is the said or even by mean other at the end of 1945 would not change the stories to our case. we had 2 organizations when the cold war we got we had not prompted to juggle this. and that also does the families from impala these limited, sadly organization. is there not

a big organization or the program? they asked for less than $45.00 until monday. tonight i'm with where did the cold war and so when that was all forwarded over mid to last kept a life mental is a war organization. so the big so the progress of mental health care for life. no body can just do this and we're fight for this point where the people see if we're going to see that nobody can see that. but yet we hear over and over again from western politicians, from nato officials that need harbors no malicious intent b, russia. i did what i see is the somebody who fought the struggle like use a party when legal, kansas were helping. what was natal doing through the government?

given them weapons has been the even the big news that we have one. yeah. because would not try to change usa, i know today's quote, you know, who garage to drop those to you. but i'd like to get that under who's riskier. but if i go to fight against the cost, if it does become questionable by the pool, we may need to start that will be what russia when you do this, no right thing can be done. when i said that was set up this one to step with about one off of route, but he's landed terrorists will come from iraq. celia and other have now come a doctor got exhibit come to so my, the of the come to laws. i'm be next to us and they started the war here. this current last year, me our so just because the data is now next door, this time off of that is fully at war. go. why?

like use those so not just talk are great and number come to see what people, the software development for, which we went there because the data is a bit because the so affected. look what you must lead to the words about what was done is to we can see therefore 2 things will have the reaction that reaction or roscoe to some people who was your issue now or to some people in most what was the national security interests of russia didn't come, nobody must come with the story that there's no with, with an oil. if it's not, so this is the most from with and now the shifting growth with your good listen, you do that and it comes with it. you don't need to persuade me that, you know,

the russian security interest. i will, i will. i agree with you totally here, but still this is, i think this is going to be one of the most painful conflicts for russian recent history. precisely because of what you said we have most of us have family members in ukraine. they have childhood memories in your brain. so even if they, you know, national security interests were involved, it was an extremely difficult decision. i will have to live with the consequences of it for years and perhaps take it to come. now, i want to turn to your own story because you have a very interesting story of fighting for what you believe to be your country's destiny, being an anti apartheid student. later joining the aren't organization of the african national congress. them being in being in prison on robin island, but nelson mandela, et cetera. in those times, did you ever doubt what was right and what was wrong?

how did you arrive at your own conscience and your own piece of, you know, making those decisions because, you know, fighting against what you see as injustice. you can do that. you know, in white glove. sometimes you take measures that you have and still you have to take them. not just the 1st of the philosophy of political struggle for liberation like yourself party because the form of mouth and 1st of them was underpinned by chris. for justice. wait one. i days the racism and we'd probably the whole one of the 1st american people supported us. mr . biden was one of the best support us associate is not posted. we were supported from everywhere in bridget, so on. so, so we're given by the chris weighed quality on non racialism. and for justice,

when the police of our own comes, all these both will don't route. we're not faced with the problem with we wait, we are close to reach you with that kind of an a p. live become that what they come in love with you answer a questions you will have you gone? yes. and one friend of mine is them is optim, what we can never accept as people when we did full source of justice or human rights, is that hate flips. that is being split is the well to be and will not be part of the he does not say it's a sport man. you must denounce to come to play tennis, no less than with a spec. if one you could get an answer for the sake of playing tennis or football, it will never happen. so they have to put my soap in any case in all possible though, we're not buying, it would've been russian. people as well. you're kind of people,

we try both with the security. so president would team will also try with the national so that any c, or with a case with things so piece it does all sorts of things you the up to believe in this country. but one thing we must also be trying to use your crate and those lab bergman's their lives. you must be aware of that. we are leaving for a 4th. i mean, you are one and that is the day when i was going to go to point to these the present. but most common cause them realize that these people want to fight until the last to go on. you know, there was to put them wait week is the last when they use the new great as 10 am for the buck must come in and who was i bring it by model is a disaster. therefore,

this they must come to an end to say the 3 b discussion, dialog and debates are now mrs. nick, while we have to put an end table discussion dollars in debate because we have to take a very short break. but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah ha. ah

ah ah ah, welcome back to wells appointment. okay. say well, we employment in south african petition, businessman and an ally of nelson mandela. missus equality before the break. you mentioned that in your anti apartheid struggle, you were supported by people from around the world in the americans. but i know for

a fact that nelson mandela, what might some time, i mean, this person who is now considered to be one of the carriers greatest areas of human conscience. he was considered a terrorist that he couldn't receive an american visa for, for quite some time. when in your own perception, when did that sweet occur? when he stopped was some being seen as a, as a, as a terrorist and suddenly it became a one of the same are good news for you. i'm to this day, i'm just the private, the tellers from it was to got this case with no. so monday i went to the white house and met president george bush and other people on the device. and so one of the things i was with this question was this thing of being continued to be trust. you know, that is possible, but it's in my passport. i'm sort of

a switch because we, we, we were having the cuttings and the own. austin, the for the freedom of our people. now in america, in other parts of the world go to wells, was the part like we'll see where some of the people are supporting us. and some of the people who i guessed us, but you know, when to become a president debate, i became a premier. no so modality seemed residence. and during that time up with level 3 in america. but when i went and talked to one of the business, you started showing my possible to get this was so i kept on being stuck at the airport and i guess i will give them because of the current administration, the time that best to change a lot it was not that easy, so with us, if i did it, but because we had one, you know, because we had prevails. it was not good music america to continue quoting us. there was, but i'm saying that i'm good people in the united states than anywhere else. in the

world are good people in russia. what we have to do through a bait that route through diplomatic discussions. we have to make sure that this war comes to an end affecting ask. it is not in the world economy yesterday, only the international monetary fund, whether it is what has downgrade the growth of the world. you know, because of what does everything not look void so, but the sanctions because the both weights not the less than but because it and it's rock for any group of countries to dig it up for themselves to put a gun on. right. it's if you played with republic, if you do the simplest point in budget when trouble, so everybody's good bye. so when you talk about russian, you're in, publish a is also posted to certain people. and i don't like that because there are also people in this world, but we believe that it would like the week there is

a need for people to sit down and dissolve. unfortunately, the talk to, to have any bells have not but see there present with the did and, but i want to you as somebody i know very well present with tie again, i know you said the did and i again miss this meant the almost baby to see him, but i understand we've got the discussion inside listen to the fold up question or questions them up. i think it is not an easy thing to take the 1st step, but somehow people have got to find it in the ha, mr. sec. a little bit because i, you've been calling for data for quite some time and i know you've been following these calls like from it's very beginning and i think it was in 2015 when you published an open letter to present to 10 and a present on field work on their hubris and come to the negotiating table. and to some extent, this call was heated because president put in and present biden math in geneva last

year. and they talked about the origins of that disagreements. but the united states continued militarize in ukraine and continued using its land to present the military french, russia. isn't there a certain point when the dial needs to stop so that the other side, you know, understands that then you know, so using that dialogue to, to deliver harm to its adversary? no, no. i said i know was going to be the soldier, goodbye. i'm are come to us, all right, well more than 300 years, so i understand this thing and whether another thing i feel we can even play a role and play with us, you know, the about 2 months and the horn, both sides. we have been in prison for more than 15 years. so i wanted to say that the time of value is always an opportunity to be seized. does luca lama top is

oh that oh, pretty much recap alive. i'll leave with all the leaders. i'm not talking for in your organization. i don't a lot of organizations business and so well as an international citizen and as somebody will soon this be, we might not be that clever. oh, bugger wise, lose domains that will seen this thing before because it will end up in dial list. keep the door open and i'll leave with brother in law school. i'm open not don, police and yourself. i understand what you said, but it's time for them to find a way even, you know, just to meet face to face. i know it's not easy to take the 1st step lead of those you about hope for me. i live in that hope. the no one that we, we negotiate, we started talking with the enemy of that was, it was, we were still your budget and this is a, if the russian,

any ukrainian people and the russian and ukrainian leaders indeed decide to me the thing is within the capacity of the ukrainian government of the ukrainian leadership to put on not only to put an end to that war, but to implement the commitments that they may take upon themselves among which is for example, making ukraine neutral. i from what i hear of the russian official saying they don't want the ukrainian sovereignty, they don't want to decide anything from the ukrainians. what they want is new credit. you're going to try and stop presenting a strategic threat to russian militarily. as long as that is taken care of ukrainians are free to perceive whatever they see for themselves. but do you think this decision rest within kids capacity or that it perhaps needs to be taken taken elsewhere. and how would you persuade those powers elsewhere to commit to that? i know yes this is, these plans have been placed poverty,

but that's the essence of negotiation and deliberations and dialogue and to promote discussion. those points where easy are the points are to be handled as the discussion because the 1st thing is decision of all, did you receive all hosting? they can be no more for president of those. and then i can talk about the details of all these guarantees. was all size once those up questions for the debate. you can't, you can say do this before we will then it's something that must be equity that would meet about the stance of course, those things like that. but the subject of the discussion. so the only thing i'm see led, the brother was just like time to themselves, discuss people come from outside and call more fuel into the situation, present their lives. but that was possible to stand up, not as a president with a strength of your own people. and that's what it is passionate about. but be careful about you. plain would not be controlled by others on those that you are

with sophie's, you have to do by doing, you know it and he's very well and he's a little bit well, but let's be convinced him and not other people behind this off thing. this is the problem, this, but tell us, and of course we broke all the weapons from outside, not be in the situation. we need more as to see more jaw, not wall. so the people who are bringing weapons, you know, maybe time for the warehouse all the way with that is what we are. but this must have but definitely in this part of the world, we are not food for all these. give me the best things for that to go to the end of the day. because collections and your comments and all that big your left on your own. rico who, when people are what is better. and i asked him very quickly about something that

you mentioned before, the fact that this conflict is having the rest of the world. and there are many express how warning about the growing danger, not hunger in developing countries because of the rising fuel and food prices prompted by the, by the sections western sanctions against russia. isn't that also to some extent, a sign of supremacy when a 2nd part of the world can decide that everybody else can suffer because of his decision to penalize that's a rush or somebody else? isn't that the very essence, if you will, of apartheid or fashion? and how as the international community, we can deal with that so that you in south africa don't have to pay, let's say, for our russian mistake. because at this point of time, the most vulnerable countries are not even forced to carry the burden of the of the western sanctions. because the west doesn't like something about russia. the group

is a group of it is a limited works. remember when in the, in the solar system, where does this book take noses? communication from the police brought with such a high state. that's what i have been on. the thought part of the world focus focus is immediate in record time. the point of the funds should inform off wall when you impose sanctions, ready, clearly, warfare against other people is affecting us. no whack is the bed of beaks. we feed into the pencil bombs, which we did with mrs. if you need almost every way. we're not part of this, that's why we have good the rights. i would say, why does this black men's turkey who his right to the end of the wedding sub i have well, the right to the citizens of the world to point the finger at the wrong thing. that is deputy, we can kill the bidding of the sanctions because they go the functions, the unilateral. they're not united nation functions. we in south america living tend for 30 years. we asked from 9 to 60 to 9090. we had asked for

qantas to impose sanctions on south africa. they play jokes with us. the results with us, the sanctions don't last have i had mouth where there was in one day. we understand the games are going to be all real things that we're asking for people to recognize the for week. and i'm going to say this for the last time. the danger of what is happening in that part of the world. you can have this wall breaking out into something else because of mistakes. in concrete dance, like less ness or a miscalculation is the lead, not the leader of the world in this part of the world. nation. everybody. including prism putting i in danger because other people may take advantage of the situation and saw him you. but on top of the clearly lead us the white house lead us the

claim. lim, lead us prisons. it is. do people have got to sit down and by the way, is the model if you don't negotiate with friends of the checks. nipple sheet was un that in with you see don in may well get how the old war woodward who ended, you know, what did with it. but today we can talk with jamie people. but when you get on, you know, you, you think you something that he's been gone for. if i cry for the children on both sides of the fence, these are all the children that don't does the boot colds. and quite closed the door by shallow, the dawn with the shades, if we were both watching anything and people all belong, while mister farley, i called dad. so not only our past but also our future, but we have to live in there. thank you very much for your with him. i hope i have a stamp on the subject. but for the children live to school. there just conflicts.

country pinkish, i think here it's our viewers for watching home this year again next week was a part. ah ah . ah, ah, is your media a reflection of reality? in the world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation, whole community? are you going the right way?

where are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah

ah ah ah, the civilians have indeed died in the city of variable. but once again, this is not a mass grave. each grape is individual r t, an independent journalist, find no evidence of a mass graves near a martyr. you called the slide western media reports and key zone claims that up to 9000 people could be buried there. also in the stories that shaped the president potent council, the storming of a steel works in the city of morrow, you call ordering a blockade there. in the sy told say last pockets of resistance in the area that those locals claim evacuation roots where sabotaged by nationalists. forces which you right.