a little more real to what they should look unit 731 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had ever known. ah, with welcome to all the parties that efforts to isolate los gatos solander west

comparing it hard to dial sounds after claiming that depression were to have its own. nelson mandela government, which was to be ostracized. and the country's economy boy caught it. is that a viable historical lesson to be applied again, while perhaps another international colonial thinking? want to discuss that i'm now joined by and talk while a prominent addition. and this is an ally of nelson mandela. this isn't well, it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time as well. let's see. now you're literally your worlds apart from russia and ukraine in johannesburg, some 15000 kilometers away from where we are. how much attention is given to this conflict in your part of the world and how is that covered the world? is that really? you know, there's nothing in the end the way whether it is in the oscar to home,

to the tank in model for right now. whether it is body music is there with that you're going over the discussion by law with or that we did these things on time on this one and i must say you from the stops we have it press. our disappointment am by the 5th birthday, is when attempts to send some news. we come from the limbs of nelson mandela. we come from the background and the history of us eat a party. it was a 4 more fish resume your u. s. and s. when the listeners must understand that these are all on the a lot of them sitting in nazi germany. and after 945, they came here to start their own home off now just in or fresh has been with the project. so, so from the length of next monday, we know what, since i see,

we know what the war he's, we'd know what aggression use and therefore when the news is way on the web, you see everything is supposed to do with modern technology. media. you know that from the very beginning there has been a disagreement. oh, who are the main protagonist? whether it is neighborly, tries between russia and ukraine for the independence of ukraine, or whether it involves some other actors as well. how do you see when i started by expressing for my slides yellow, our sense of what's most very human beats in our stance on the progress to see what i can see, the brother and sister at wal ross on this process would have been to my ukrainians and by us it was biggest tiniest mcdaniels do so. i mean it's

all those who formed is the ha break, the seed grove. i insist i gave a sister. that's the 1st thing i want to say. we also b because remember, we did not have a kind of didn't belong to us. it belongs to that washes them than masses waiting to hear the mustangs and many, many puzzles won't give up the whole machine dogma. our whole, my home is a part of the time it was the this go. so who's of the soviet, you know, my own wants most school? and i said this in my whole watson group is also different. it was what we say in find that for our audience, because in your younger years, you trained as a military engineer in that, in to lots of places around the soviet union. can i ask you this opportunity and ask you whether you saw any difference between the russians and the ukrainians at

that time, political, ethnic culture? and do you think this war, this current conflict could have been avoided? and the soviet union was not whatever differences the b, 5 among the people in your thought of and so on. when i was received by one group of people, we never had to go on it. i lived in central, probably not. this is of us. the point i lived in, in linda after the time, so they, they quoted a group of it. but most of the time we lived in moscow, what i'm going to do, maybe better the way that is about be aware of these things. but when you buy one people, nothing for that, thus light, when the country is broken up in 1990 when there's nothing we can do when this terrible quantity taking place. it affects us as well. and we'll hope, and we have what suggestions about how this new must come to an end because on was

at the end of the mouse come to an end when, before we talk about how i may and do you think it could have been to that? absolutely. absolutely, and i would say what are stated in public, i'll state what is the said over even by mean the other end of 1945 did not change the story is to r t we, we had 2 organizations when the cold war we got we had not planned to teach august, and that was okay. does the standards from pharma impala these live militarily organization? is there not searches of bob regal guns is the program they pushed us for 1145 until 1989. i'm with where did the cold war and so when that was all forward it over little was kept the life mental is a war or gun is the issue. so the big so the progress of mental health care for

life at no body can destroy this and we're fired for this point where the people see if we're going to see that nobody can see that. but yet we hear over and over again from western politicians from nato officials that need harbors no malicious intent, that b. russia did what sam? okay. c. as the flu, find somebody who fought the struggle like use a party where nato, kansas were helping him. what does natal doing now think about what the government given them. weapons has been the even the with ones. yeah. because not quite the change used to, i know today's point, you know, who garage to drop the you go fight like it is under who's risky. but if i go to fight against the attack was it does become questionable by the food we made made to start. that will be, was russia when you do this?

no, i think you'd be the one i said that was set up this one to step with about one hour reps that islamic terrorists will come from iraq. celia and other well have now come into asa got exhibit come to so mildly of the of come to laws. i'm b, that's to us. and they started the war here. this current last year, me our so just because i didn't, i, you know, next door press times off of that is fully at war. go fight like use those. so not just talk barbara and number of countries do what people, the south african development where we, we went there because the data is a big because the so affected local, you must lead to the words above what was done is to we can see therefore 2 things will have the reaction that reaction or roscoe to some

people was your issue now or to some people in most what was the national security interests of russia didn't come. nobody must come with the story, but there's no with me. we're coming to do an oil change, but it's not who this is the roots organization, but most time with and now the shifting growth with your list of your and it comes with up to the americans and it's all you don't need to persuade me that you know the russian security interest and both. i will i agree with you totally here, but still this is i think this is going to be one of the most painful conflicts for russian recent history. precisely because of what you said, we have most of us have family members in ukraine. they have childhood memories in your brain. so even if the, you know, national security interests were involved,

it was an extremely difficult decision. i will have to leave with the consequences of it for years and perhaps take it to come. now i want to turn to your own story because you have a very interesting story of fighting for what you believe to be your country's destiny, being an anti apartheid student. later joining the aren't organization of the african national congress. them being in, being in prison on the robin island, but nelson mandela, et cetera. in those times, did you ever doubt what was right and what was wrong? how did you arrive at your own conscience and your own piece of, you know, making those decisions because, you know, fighting against what you see as injustice. you can do that. you know, in white glove. sometimes you take measures that you hate and still you have to take them. not just the 1st on the philosophy. i will struggle off. what is the

struggle for liberation like yourself are people as a form of mother and 1st of them was underpinned by chris for justice, waste quantities, i days, the racism and we plan the whole one of those of us american people supported us. mr. i didn't was one of the best of point us off associate is not posted. we were supported from it who again bridget, so on. so, so we're given by the chris wade quality, or non gratian allison. and for justice, what liberation of our own comes all the go through that route. we're not faced with a problem with we we, we approach that got an issue with that kind of an i p live become that what they've done, it is lovely. so you are quite a while you're gone. yes. and one friend of mine is them is optim.

what we can never accept as people we did for social justice or human rights. is that hate cliffs? not he's been split in the world to be and will not be part of the he does. that's the sport men you must denounce to come to play tennis. no person would expect it. you could get an answer for the sake of playing tennis or football, it will never happen. so they have to be split must. so in any case, in our play though, we're not buying, it would've been russian people. that's what you're trying to people. we try both with the security or prison put team. we also try with the national it any see or present it for you right away. okay. if i can, yes. we probably will see you being so busy. does all sorts of things. these are

big to be losing this country, but one thing we must also be trying to use your claim and they'll say person's their lives. you must be aware of that. we are leaving for a 4th. i mean, you are born and that is the day when i was going to go to point to be the president that respect what must come and all of them are these people want to fight until the last you going, you know, they want to put them great week is the last, when they use the new great as 10 am for the buck must come to an end. who was a brand new light by model is a disaster. therefore, they must come to an end to say the 3 b discussion dialog and base for now, mrs. if, while we have to put an end table discussion dialogue and debate because we have to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah

ah ah, since the break away of the donates people's republic was been ranging and don't boss ukrainian artillery it's been showing civilian, townsend, mining village is that your love only deal with a new one with a deal about one of your company a little above all of the 3 of the little boys will give us bullet one.

ah ah welcome back to say well, we employment in south african petition, businessman and an ally of nelson mandela, missus equality before the break. you mentioned that in your anti apartheid struggle, you were supported by people from around the world in the americans. but i know for a fact that nelson mandela, what might some time, i mean, this person who is now considered to be one of the carriers greatest areas of human

conscience. he was considered a terrorist that he couldn't receive an american visa for quite some time. when in your own perception, when did that switch occur? when he start was some being seen as a, as a, as a terrorist. and suddenly it became a one of the same. i go news for you. i'm to this day, i'm just a minute. we've got this case with nelson mandela went to the white house and met president george bush and other people on the device. and so one of the things i was lazy and like i said this question was, this thing will be continued to be trusted, right? you know, that is possible, but it's in my passport. i'm sort of a switch because we, we, we were having the cuttings and the own up austin, the for the freedom of our people in america and other public will go to us. oh,

well, the park, like we'll see where some of the people are supporting us and some of the people who i guessed us, but you know, when to become a president duplicates, i became a premier. no, so modality seemed residence. and during that time i could travel safely in america, but when i went and talked about business, you started showing my possible again, this was so i kept on being stop at the airport and i guess i will give them because no, the current i've been station the time that best to change a lot, it was not so with us if i did it. but because we had one, you know, because we had prevails. it was no good music america to punch in recording us there was but i'm saying that i'm good people in the united states than anywhere else in the world are good people with what we have to do through and bates through dialogue, through to promote discussions. we have to make sure that this war comes to an end

of thumb is i think it is not picking the well, the economy is the only the international monetary fund, whatever it is with has downgrade the growth of the world. you know, because of what is everything, not look void so, but the sanctions because the both weights love the less than but because it and this rock for any group of countries to dig it up, one of the cells to put a gun on. right. it's if you played with grandfather, if you do this, you play sports in the restroom when trouble, so everybody is good bye. so when you talk about the russian, you end up being terrorized also posted to certain people and that will not accept because they're also free people in this world. but we believe that it was like a week. there is a need for people to sit down and dissolve. unfortunately, the talk to, to have any bells have not let's see there present with the did and, but i want to you as somebody i know over the with present with tie, again,

i know you said the didn't give me this meant lose. you almost ready to see you, but and then we've got the discussion inside. listen to the question of questions. the ma party is good. you need to take the 1st step, but somehow people have got to find it. mr. second, a little bit because i have been calling for dial for quite some time. and i know you've been following these calls like from it's very beginning, and i think it was in 2015 when you published an open letter to present to 10. and a president obama was overcome that hubert and come to the negotiating table. and to some extent, this call was heated because president put in and present, right in math in geneva last year. and they talked about the origins of that disagreements. but the united states continued military rising in ukraine and

continued using its land to present the military, french to russia. isn't there a certain point when the dial needs to stop so that the other side, you know, understands that then you know, so using that dialogue to, to deliver harm to its adversary? no, i said that i know was going to be the soldier, goodbye. i'm our come to us or to print more than 300 years. so i understand this thing and whether i'm of the i feel we can even play a role and plug with, you know, the about 2 months and the business of on both sides. we have been in prison for more than 15 years, so i wanted to say that the time of value is always an opportunity to be seized. those who has a lot lower cost is that oh, pretty much recap a life i'll leave with all the leaders. i'm not talking for in your organization. i

don't a lot of organizations business and so, but as an international citizen and as somebody will soon this be, we might not be that clever. ok, but we'll why we've domains that we've seen this thing before because it will end up in dire list. keep the door open and i'll leave with brother in law school and open your heart dornbush it did and yourself. i understand what you said, but it's time for it to just sit down, find a way even, you know, just to meet face to face. i know it's not easy to take the 1st step, lead us of those, give up hope for me. i live in that hope that no one that we, we negotiate, we started talking with the enemy of that wish it was we were still inside it. and this is a folly, if the russian, any ukrainian people and the russian and ukraine leaders indeed decide to meet the thing. it's within the capacity of the ukrainian government of the ukrainian

leadership to put on not only just with an answer, that's why, but to implement the commencement that they may take upon themselves. i am on which is for example, making ukraine neutral. i from what i hear of the russian official saying they don't want the ukrainian sovereignty, they don't want to decide anything from the ukrainians. what they want is new credit. you're going to try and stop presenting a strategic threat to russian militarily. as long as that is taken care of ukrainians are free to perceive whatever plane they see for themselves. but do you think this decision rather within key capacity or that it perhaps needs to be taken, taken elsewhere. and how would you persuade those powers elsewhere to commit to that? i know you're busy this both of these publicly, but that's the essence of negotiation. and deliberations and guy look to promote discussion. those points are easy, are the points on to be handled as the discussion because the 1st thing is decision

of all did receive almost think of it, no more book fellow who kind of groups and then can talk about the details of all this was all at once those up questions for the debate, you can say do this before we go, then it's something that was negative, but we're good to meet about uses. of course those things magnitude. but the subject of the discussions is so the only thing i'm saying led the brother was just like come to them. so discuss, people come from outside and call more fuel into the situation, present the lives, look that are supposed to go to spend as a president with the strength of your own people. and that's what he was very passionate about. but be careful about you plane would not be controlled by others on those that you are with. so these you have to do by doing a and he's really good and it's going to take a little bit of work. but let me give him and not other people behind this off

thing. this is the problem, this, but tell us, and of course, recording weapons from outside, not be in the situation. we need more as to say more joe, joe, joe, not wall. so the people who are bringing weapons, you know, maybe time for the warehouse all the way off with that is what we are. but this must have, but definitely in this part of the world, we are not food all these, this the best things for that to go just to the end of the day. because questions and comments as the big your left on your own. because when people are what is better, can i ask him very quickly about something that you mentioned before? the fact that this conflict is having on the rest of the world. and there are many express how warning about the growing danger of not hunger in developing countries because of the rising fuel and for the prices are prompted by the,

by the sections western sanctions against russia is and then also to some extent a sign of supremacy when a 2nd part of the world can decide that everybody else can suffer because of his decision to penalize that's a rush or somebody else. he isn't that the very essence, if you will, of apartheid or fashion and how as the international community we can deal with that so that you, in south africa don't have to pay, let's say, for our russian mistake. because at this point of time, the most vulnerable countries are not even forced to carry the burden of the of the western sanctions. because the west doesn't like something about russia. the group is a group of it is a limited works. remember in the, in the solar system, where does the book take notice? communication from a police report is never such a high state. that's what i have been for. the thought part of the world says this

focus is immediate in record time. but the point of a form, or what, when you impose sanctions just clearly warfare gives other people is affecting us no work in the bed and all beats we feed into the pencil bombs, which we did with mrs, with almost every way. we're not part of this, that's why we have got the right that we can say, what is this black men talking who he's a right to the end of the way in sub i have well, the right to the 2nd of the world to point a finger at the wrong thing back is deputy. we can kill the bidding of the sanctions because they go the sanction the unilateral. they're not united nation functions. we insult a live intent for 30 years. we asked from 9 to 60 to 9090. we had asked for counters to impose sanctions on south africa. they play jobs with us. they don't with us. the sanctions don't last have i had now where there was one day

. we understand the games are going to be all real things that we're asking for. people to recognize the 48, and i'm going to say this for the last time. the danger of what is happening in that part of the world. you can have this wall breaking out into something else because of mistakes. incompetence, like less mess or a miscalculation. you see, we're not the leader of the world in this part of the world. nation, everybody including prison per diem, i in danger because other people may take advantage of the situation. and so it means that on top of the family, lead us the white house, lead us the claim, lead, lead us prison, zelinski. people have got to sit down and by the week is the model. if you don't, there was she was friends of the checks. nipple sheet was un that in with you see

don, it may well get how the world war one more to ended. you know, what didn't with him. but today we can talk with jimmy people. but when he does on, you know, you, do you think it's something that he's been gone for? if i car for the children on both sides of the fence, these are all the children with a don does the boot colds and quite closed the door burst of the dawn with shades. if ever by both washing any painting people you all belong to. mrs. farley, i called dad, so not only are past that else are future, but we have to leave it there. thank you very much for your wisdom. i hope i've unplugged your permission to look stamp on the subject. but for the children live to school. there just conflicts company pinkish, i think here it's our viewers for watching hope to see her again next week and was a part ah

ah, oh, a . so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race group is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful,

very critical time time to sit down and talk a, do somebody, keep me start running the phone, but they want to be awesome. new people who love collegial, a new one with one of your company a little above all of the 3 of those little boys who did your most bullet.