and russia came and did what it did and left. ok, so this is exactly want to solve on island leadership. wanted to do. of course this, everything is viewed today is a foreign interference. and everything is put today in the context of this new cold war. but i think that this is not an uncommon practice down many thanks for your time and your thoughts on the program today. we do appreciate that gal lift could rector the global security analysis institute in telephone bloody sunday, almost 50 years old. what is the legacy of one of the northern ireland most terrible days going undergoing delves into that red? ah, western media pundents and politicians refuse to say the quiet part out loud. the

conflict in ukraine actually has little to do with ukraine itself. this conflict is united western front against russia. this means when the war is over, will be on moscow terms and time. ah, i ah damn, african retention your what you going on the ground, the team. and i will be back soon with a brand new look, despite nature nation and he you censorship. but until then, we'll be showing some of your favorite shows of the season so far coming over the show, while bar a strong to new fights for his political life. this weekend may have opposed charging those involved, the world is but hours away from commemorating

a 10 minute massacre. bloody sunday, we investigate. and after the vatican last week, beatified as priests slaughtered by alleged so called us back to death squads in el salvador. what should we expect from the country supreme court? opening up a new investigation into the murders of jesuits clerics that inspired st. oscar romero himself mounted 45 years ago. we speak to an expert witness of the case dollars or more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing unarmed civilians in ulster, no one has ever faced trial and bras. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining me now from cook's down, northern ireland discount fan m p for middle sta. francie malloy. thanks so much. rach event coming back. gone. i mean, people were waiting this week for su grey in a inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was

a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about that. tell me and remind us about what bloody bloody sunday was. and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and official after the atrocity. well, thank you very much for the invitation from on a really sunday was changing of ash political saying it was a massive change because for the 1st time and the charade campion british soldiers had i went in and opened fire a with labor and on on, on arm civilian marching. they and they, they targets were very much in the $98.00 walk in honda and han as the song said that after time. but on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the same in america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change and surprised the people his id were unarmed, unarmed civilians,

women and children families out a demand in civil rights under compressor h. i for this attack to happen. i guess it was of course i don't 2nd bloody sunday because and then i can put it a buddy sunday. well, i'm british to talking and crow heart as to what are my was tell continuing a by the british government, the british army in and during. yeah, the 1st one when churches to a, a football stadium, but i mean i'll get to the foreign minister has said previously that as regards who should take quotes, there would be a storm of fury if 4 men would shot away with it. when of course, there are a lot of, i real thousands of them act a long cation english, present, and reporting and directly convicted in jails. some of them and on grounds unforced, confessions, and torture on all the restaurant. roland iron is so the, the fact that nobody has been harrison ever 14 people died running sunday. the 13 on the day and one followed after. and nobody has been found guilty of that. if i

clear from the wintry tribunal, 1st of all, it was a total arse and things could have been sorted. i that what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convict soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that and ration this come iraqi foundation. shake. well, of course, following what is of the nuremberg though? no excuse for any kind of trust city. are you going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank gets. and he had been in cyprus in bahrain, in a number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence movement that he's alive, we invite him on, on the show, he was commodity one parent also involved in valley murphy, 9071. when of course, frank kitchen was the architect of all of us. not only all the shoot to kill policy

which was tighter to go to somebody and by the m r. p, and other parts of the north brain, which in the end of the collision, it, we're used to the loyalist forces in collision with a unfortunately, u. d. r and you're, you see to care motors on the national paper, talk kitchen series or the put in the book is very much in the line of the strategy that's been out by the arse you graduate on this day. and it is remarkable that the high he had never been held are, are, are all the atrocities of catered on the i'm south that he give. and as you say, and not only in iron, but around the world where he debated unconquered where they partitioned and where the murdered people to try and pondered any objections to pretty early in whatever content. maybe i went over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but his grace pharmacy, i a boss general the trans that he read. frank kitchens book when they tried to

counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq. what does it make you feel that vincent, bloody sunday is somehow connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east or west asia in the past few years, when, just as colonial or on the domination that britain has tried to you across the word, the empire, a story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold onto as many or some testers, osman, whether be base admin goggins direct need to replace others, may partition increased in order to divide and conquer. they are whether as understand ireland or the partition in the country after the british on the on 1920 that jackie then finish up on the cm strategy on the same idea. it was some say, britain has are not to learn what a one thing that has on it has continued do what a don't at those times. i'm right to right. is colonial. ours,

across the word. can you understand why the british government feels of the good friday agreement put a cotton behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid. south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that apparently a clues of behavior, according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which is only released in the past few days when they get quite clear and just watch the video card would have been about in no the 30 years from the early civil rights champion, i took part in the 1st civil rights march from california, and that was id. if you look up a woman one booked the right to ocean, right to jo. a under british government installment at that time, couldn't deliver no simple demand. because to give people race, it would stay in the country and they would live for jobs and stay under that

number. they had the union vote in the years to come. so they had the whole collusion issue has been part and partial of how the british controlled island and unable to this day. and there, of course, the most recent course now must mon, clearly stint that there was collusion in the borders that collusion directed by the british government collision implemented by the or u. c, u d r i. and on special ranch, the importation office, as african americans by british agents, i think that attain whenever the south african regime was come to an end. and where the at the british were rearming the loyalist here. i'm. most of the murders that happened on time were borders, catered, they who was weapons brought in from south africa. well, i mean, it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained way it works in the way it operates, it will change significantly. what about jeremy corbin actually i mean some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but

of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow stilling because of a british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security services reprisal today. yeah, i think there's also that fear within them on but i didn't know jeremy i went on and john don and others within their guard. paul rose were on the the key players at the time of the civil rights champion and even jim gun. and he come to darian id, spoke invitation to ratify the wrongs that robin h. the william whitelaw with a shag understand that pro dormant, quit, and he brought an entry storm upon stoned. it no longer up armed or something assembly because they couldn't manage the at the proper control apart. and, and they, if you get it the dispatcher, ours actually also went to get it the, the sure to get it on the,

in the just to internment no ramp up to with the go ahead from the british government. introduced determined which again, infected winds on the national staple, and turn people who were totally innocent and who weren't involved in any whatsoever. and of course you have to remember that it was who i re in operation no ready. somebody and others thought i would became recruiting agent for the ira because the, at what the british government were doing and i did. and as part of the good friday agreement that my 5 are allowed to operate freely with the b s. and i, i'm going to ask about joe biden, he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound of rebel songs in the evening. sometimes obviously, britain once it prospected trade deal with united it, do you think bloody sunday is a factor in joe biden? some actions towards his nato ally, britain. well, i don't know the details. i was, he aaron went away. he was thinking isn't,

but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players doesn't want to keep there and bring about the good friday agreement . and i think right, of course i, america, there is the good 12 support or the national cause because they know what britain infected i and over the years debating and all there's no like the kennedys that actually had to. i'm a richmond looking for walk because of the ashes of the british government in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and play a plant in what a buffet agreement and in the political dimension of i keep moving things forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if he interfere with the good for a raymond, that the you, when we know did agreement between britain on the market and show that of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's a labor i think that america will and make sure that the carrier to control it, make sure that they act be a good free agreement is our top purpose and not to damage in any way whatsoever.

but whoever the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented, we need to see it fully implemented. and again, no, you're talking year after the great fabian with the same and we still haven't got the full implementation of the good for him. and that's up to both the british and the irish goblin mixture, as guarantors that they carry that out. because we do have the right to hold on irish unity, and that's been held back by their brandy. but he started to stand for the present time. he will give that referendum when i received it in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been abducted france. well, i thank you. i do after the break, another nato nation atrocity, we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back $989.00 jesuit priest massacre in el salvador, all the smoke and we have about 2 of going underground

ah ah, ah ah, western media pundents and politicians refused to say the quiet part out loud. the conflict in ukraine actually has little to do with ukraine itself. this conflict is united western front against russia. this means when the war is over, will be on moscow's terms. any time ah, welcome back 100 years ago to day. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations, we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create

a regional government and may, the increased us influence in the region. one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 989. now, $33.00, as all the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened after a now over 2 and amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies. department professor terry lynn call. thank you so much professor for coming on in part when we talked about the 50th anniversary of matthew k killing in ireland, known as bloody sunday in the attempt for justice. why is all, salvador, open this criminal investigation into events in 1989? when, of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think reagan actually diff, a fund in the you, the salvador and military,

which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk squads, along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of m a. so tay, which is the worst massacre in our latin american contemporary history. they had their uniforms on. now, that's really important because we opened the jesuit case. the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military. therefore, the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened, it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians or president alfredo christianity, who was president of the arena party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who was quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're

seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged. and i very much doubt we will see any salvador and military charge, if they are, they will be very low level. if this case proceeds forward, i own whether it actually proceeds or oversee, the president denies the that there is anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness trials in spain, you expect to be an expert witness in this one. i do not. i think that the spanish have all the evidence they need. they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the reign of hardy, who i have particularly president christianity. it was just revealed in the

pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts. a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away, and i think this is actually a way to pressure the rain a party which the bouquet government would like to see a disappear. i should just quickly say though, thanks, president, the christiane is already denied involvement in the killing, killing the brace, the investigation. i mean, i should the investigation you have you ever felt this that it should. it should target fort benning in georgia, where i understand the ledge killers, world trend, the school of the americans. well, you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military, very. and the highest commander was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? if that's really the the issue that was in the spanish case,

he was an uninvited co conspirator. in the spanish case, it is very clear to me, and this makes salvatore in law different than spanish law that president christianity knew about this mask. the massacre of the jesuit priest when it happened, and he also in, was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known, and failed to prevent this, or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact, culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of the military, even though he didn't really control the military, it's well, he denies wrongdoing and also anything from li, pandora papers indicating the alleged legality. that's just go to wilma z o to you better just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children

killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in about advocacy. mrs. thatcher was a friend of general finishes. what happened in mil mazata in 1981 in 1981, the salvadoran military. i pushed large part by the united states. i went into areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas. by virtue of there was a gorilla. that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied their territory. now, what happened and on the so day, which is, as i said, the largest massacre that we know of in latin america contemporary period is uh, the uh, la cottle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military, which was formed under, i would say u. s to ledge, it was not trained,

and in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed, the guerrillas had left the area cuz they had great deal of for warning that this was coming. but in the town of elma, so they, there was a story that the people in elm so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma, so it's a much more than the actual population of the city of the vill. it's a little village. and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down on that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza and then very strangely,

this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes. that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again. at dawn, they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st. they told the women that they were taking the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people, of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young youth. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so tay, what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1092. or there

was only enough money to take up that $1.00 of the sites where a $124.00 children and all of these were babies. they were very young, were dug up, and i had the sentences of rape reported and of, and the children being hang, do you know where we've had to evolve a national security adviser on this show we had right, elliot abrams on he was assistant secretary state at the time and he is subsequently beam the special representative of the united states to iran and to venezuela, of course, many allegations about us policy in venezuela. in recent times, he says that the actually, the numbers do not tally at all of that for a start. the u. s. military. people like general galvin later, major commander, 7 dwanda would never counter torture. this is more generally there. and as for l

mazata, there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people though. well, he's using a line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied the any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 1992 forensic dig, was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were beheaded in the soccer field, and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed and what was called the convent and they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear,

they were massacred by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united states, those who killed them where the uh, la capital, there is no doubt of this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador . is that you cannot no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna, the identities of many of the children so that they are very small caskets can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the,

a salvador and military says that this was a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot of evidence, a ok. we'll reagan's assistant secretary of state thomas and said no evidence to confirm government rules is actually systematically mosque civilians. later a problem. i like want to say that he later wrote an op ed and apologize for that. in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials, but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry, he had testified in the us congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean, you're on a committee, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of vanguard, the river god,

perhaps of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that one to oppose your view. that what was done was wrong in the ninety's said, when asked, do you think our level of military aid was worth with course? he says yes. and he says yes for salvador and military, and this is a military. that means what is so shocking about the, on the south a massacre that's only a partial number. he's our big, massive purse. they're hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't dangerous when we were going there, because that's where all the kid, not all urban killings and desk, not telling the truth. and i want to say something about him. he want it for another, a tried to rehabilitate him. he did line a congress. he was convicted of that on down one of democracy but i am not if there my name is listed there. that's an error that i never knew yet. so thank you for that is the board of the journal of democracy and that is national endowment of

democracy. and i have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like, well, and it could be exported. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq war was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, do you think we would be invaded? so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal, professor dairyland go, thank you. that's it for one of your favorite shows of this season. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch my all social media if it's available in your country and remember you can continue, watch will going underground episodes on odyssey ended our tito come very soon with russia opens

a humanitarian car, a door from a besieged steel works in martyr. you bolt yet name civilians remain dropped there . also in the program miss our vladimir putin accuses key about its western bhaskar of launching a terror campaign against russia. we look into chilling words of warning from a ukrainian governor who said he will find and execute people to support la scope and the u. ups. the ante on india trying to pressure new delhi to turn it back on russia that says a high profile delegation lunch in the country to talk trade.