ah ah, i ah dom option return your what you're going on the ground, the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look despite nature nation and he you censorship. but until then we'll be showing some of your favorite shows of the season. so far coming over the show, while bar a strong to new fights for its political life, this weekend may have opposed charging those involved. the world is but hours away from commemorating a 10 minute massacre. bloody sunday, we investigate. and after the vatican last week,

beatified priests slaughtered by alleged so called us back to death squads in el salvador. what should we expect from the country? supreme court opening up a new investigation of the murders of jesuits clerics that inspired st. oscar romero himself mounted 45 years ago, we speak to an expert witness and the case dollars more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing unarmed civilians in ulster, no one has ever faced trial in bars. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining me now from cook's down northern ireland is should find m p for middle sta. francie malloy? thanks so much ranch event coming back on. i mean, people were waiting this week for su grey in a inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about. tell me and remind us

about what bloody bloody sunday was. and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and official after the atrocity. well, thank you very much for the invitation from on a really sunday was changing of ash political saying it was a massive change because for the 1st time and the celebration pm, british soldiers had i went in and opened fire a with lay round on on, on arm said they didn't marching, they on they at they tie dish, we're very much in the $98.00 walk in the honda on as the song said that after time . but on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the sam in america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change and surprised the people. iraqi were unarmed anom survey hymns, women and children families out a demand in civil rights under compressor h. i for this impact to happen. i guess it was, of course,

i don't 2nd bloody sunday because in the 920 but he's on did well, i'm british to talking in co park as towards remainder of those days and that the, the war was still continuing. a bay, the british government, the british army in and derek. yeah, the 1st one when churches are black and tans fide into into a, a football stadium. but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regimen. the 2nd boss johnson, the prime minister, has said previously that as regards who should take responsibility for it, there would be quotes, there would be a storm of utter fury if foreman would charge for killings while the i r a gets away with it. when of course, there are a lot of i array of men and women should have long periods of time in jail. thousands of them and long cation english prisons, in irish print, on a cross word, a republicans were acting convicted in jails. some of men on by it skeptical

grounds, unforced, compassion and torture on all the rest of the go, the legacy off the british control. and iran is so the, the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died running sunday, the 13 on the day on one followed after. and nobody has been found guilty of that. if i clear from the witchery tribunal, 1st of all, it was a total, ours, a on and things could have been sorted. i thought i, what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convict soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that aggression this come, iraqi bombarded shake. well, of course, following orders of the nuremberg though, no excuse for any kind of atrocity, going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank kits. and he had been in cyprus in bahrain, in

a number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence movement that he's alive, we invite him on, on the show, he was commodity one parent also involved in valley murphy, 9071. when of course, frank kitchen was the, aren't you tired to all of us? not only all the shoot to kill policy which retired on buddy sunday, and by the marquee and other parts of the north brain were to the end of the collision. it where he used the loyalist forces in collision with the armed forces u d r. and you're you see to care motors on the national paper. talk in some theories as he put in the book. if i were to the right of the strategy that we owed by the are issued regimen mistake. and it is remarkable that the high he had never been held or are all the atrocities of catered on the i'm shop that he give. and as you say, and not only in iron, but around the word where he debated and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murdered people to try and put down any

objections to print in whatever country it maybe went over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but does grace pharmacy i a boss general the trends that he read, frank kitchens book when they're trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq. what does it make you feel that the events in bloody sundance, i'm not connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east or west asia in the past few years? well, it, it just that colonial or on the domination that britain has tried here across the world, the empire a story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold on to as many or is untested osman, whether be basin and goblins, to eat, to replace others may partition increased in order to divide and conquer. they are whether as understand and iron or the partition they the country after the british

on the 1920 that jackie then finish up on the c m strategy on the same idea. it was some say, britain has are not to learn what a one thing that has donated continued to do. got a don at those times. i'm right to read is colonial. ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels that the good friday agreement put a gotten behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid? south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the clues of behavior, according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which was only released in the bus few days when they get quite clear and just go off the british government. i've been involved in a, in know, the years from the early civil rights come p. m. i took part in the 1st civil

rights, marsh glided on young. and i was lucky if you look up a woman one boat, right to house and right to jo. a on the british government on stormed at that time, couldn't deliver no simple demand because to give people race or stand the country . and they would look for jobs and stay under that number. they had the union vote in the years to come. so they had the whole collision issue has been part and parcel of the british controlled island and unable to this day. and there of course, most recent force. now, my mom clearly stint that it was collusion in orders that collusion directed by the british government collision, implemented by the or u. c, u d r i. and on special ranch the importation office as african americans by british agents. i think at a time whenever they set often regime was come to an end and were the at the british were re army loyalist here. i'm most of them orders that happened on time

where borders change may who happens, but in, from south africa. well, i mean, it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained way it works and the way it operates, it will change significantly. what about to jeremy colbin? actually, i mean, some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow stilling because of a british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the our civil rights struggle for fear of security services reprisal today. i think there's also that fear within the mind, but i didn't know jeremy. i went on and john mcdonald and others within the required poll rosewood, one of the key players at the time of the civil rights champion and even jim gun. and he come to darian id, spoke invitation to ratify the wrongs that robin age the way them whitelaw with a check understand that pro dormant went and he brought an end to storm apartment,

stoned it no longer up armed or something assembly because they couldn't manage the proper control apart and on day if you get it the special powers actually also want to get it the, the shoot to kill on the integer to internment. no ramp, often with the go ahead from the british government introduced determine which again, infected winds on the national staple, and turn people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any which were of course you have to remember dusted. it was who i re, in operation no really sunday and others got out would became recruitment agents for the ira because the, i want the british government were doing and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement in my 5 are allowed to operate freely with the b s. and i, i'm going to ask about joe biden. he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the

evening. sometimes obviously britain one's perspective trade deal with united states. do you think bloody sunday as a factor in jo biden's actions towards his nato ally, britain? well, i, i don't know the details. i was he and around went away. he was thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players busy with a key player and bring about the good friday agreement. and i think right, of course i, america, there is the good 12 support or the national cause because they know what britain infected i and over the years doable. no, no, there's no like the kennedys that actually had to m a richmond looking for walk because of the ashes of the really goblin in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and planned in what a good friday agreement and in the political dimension of i can move and things look forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if he interfere with the

good for a raymond, that the you, when we know trade agreement between britain on america. and so that's of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's a labor i think i'm rightly work and make sure that the carrier to control make sure that the api, the good friday agreement is our top purpose and not to damage in any way whatsoever. but remember, the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented. we need to see if fully implemented and again, no, you are talk on years after the great for being with the same. and we still haven't got the full implementation of the good part of him. and that's up to both the british and the irish goblin, to make sure as guarantors that they carry that out. because we do have the right to hold on irish unity. and that's been held back by the brand new british andrew stanford. the present time. he will give that referendum when i received it in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been there. dr. friends, well, i thank you. thank you. after the break,

another nato nation atrocity, we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back $989.00 jazz with priest masika in el salvador. all the civil can we have about to have going underground western media, pundents and politicians refuse to say the quiet part out loud. the conflict in ukraine actually has little to do with ukraine itself. this conflict is united western front against russia. this means when the war is over, will be on moscow's terms, any time with

welcome back 100 years ago today, the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations. we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government and made increased us entrance in the region. one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 1989. now $33.00, as on the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened. after an hour returned to amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies department. professor terry lynn call. thank you so much, professor for coming on in part one, we talked about the 50th anniversary of mass u. k killing in ireland, known as bloody sunday and the attempt for justice. why is all, salvador open this criminal investigation into events in 1989 when of course,

reagan sans accused of funding de facto death squads. i think regen actually defended the you, the salvador and military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk wides along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people. and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of emma, so tay, which is the worst massacre in a latin american contemporary history. they had their uniforms on. now that's really important because why i opened the jazz, what case? the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military. therefore, the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened, it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians are a president, alfredo christianity,

who was president of the arena party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who was quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged and i very much doubt we will see any salvador and military charge. if they are, they will be very low level. if this case precedes forward i own own, on whether it actually proceeds to really see the president denies the the, there is anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness of trials in spain. you expect to be an expert witness in this one. i do not, i think that the spanish have all the evidence they need. they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the reign of hardy,

who i have particularly president christianity. it was just resistor revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts for a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually a way to pressure the rain a party, which the bu keller government would like to see a disappear i should just quickly say though, thanks, president, the christiane is already denied involvement in the killing and killing the brace, the investigation. i mean, i should the investigation do have you ever felt this that it should, it should target fort benning and georgia where i understand the alleged killers were all trained the school of the americas. well, you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military and the highest commander was president

christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? if that's really the, the issue that was in the spanish case, he was an uninvited co conspirator. in the spanish case, it is very clear to me, and this makes salvadoran lot different than spanish law at present. and christianity knew about this mask the, the massacre of the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also, in was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known, and failed to prevent this, or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact, culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of the military, even though he didn't really control the military at the time. well,

he denies wrong doing and also anything from the pandora papers indicating alleged a gallery that's just go to wilma, z o g rather just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in about animals. mrs. thatcher was a friend of general blemishes. what happened in l mazata, a. in 1981, in 1981, the salvadoran military, a pushed large part by the united states. i went into areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location. i was a gorilla and that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied their territory. now what happened in the so day, which is, as i said, the largest massacre that we know of in latin america in the contemporary period is

the atlas cattle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military, which was formed under, i would say u. s. to lodge, it was not trained, and in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed, the guerrillas had left the area cuz they had great deal of forewarning that this was coming. but in the town of elma, so they, there was a story that the people in elma so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma, so take much more than the actual population of the city of the ville. it's a little village. and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost

a 1000 people lie down on that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes. that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again. at dawn, they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st. they told the women that they were taking the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people, of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma,

so today what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1902 or there was only enough money to take up that one of the sites where a 124 children and all of these were babies they were very young, were dug up, and i had the sentences of re purported and of, and the children being hang, do you know, well, we've had to evolve a national security adviser on this show we had right, elliot abrams on he was assistant secretary state at the time. and he is subsequently being the special representative of the united states to iran and to venezuela. of course many allegations about us policy, venezuela. in recent times he says that the actually the numbers do not tally at all of the for

a start the u. s. military. people like general galvin later, major commander 7th, wanda, would never counter torture. this is more generally there, and as for l, missouri, there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people though. well, he's using the line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 1992 forensic dig was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were be headed in the soccer field, and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed in what was called the convent, that they were killed and they were buried in

a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were, were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear, they were massacred by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united states, those who killed them where the uh, la cancel, there is no doubt of us this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador is that you can on no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are, are slowly identifying through dna, the identities of many of the children so that there's very small caskets can be

given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvador and military says that this was a cemetery of the guerrillas. now none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot as, as it is a ok? well, reagan's as it's, as actors say, toby's, and the said no evidence to confirm government forces actually systematically mass good civilians are we layer of commons. i like want to say that he later wrote an op ed and apologize for that. in the new york times. i believe which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials, but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry, he had testified in the us congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze?

because i did notice, i mean, you're on the command, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of vanguard, the river god, perhaps of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are a force is that still one to oppose your view led to what was done was wrong given that abraham. so, you know, in the night he said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the dud course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy at the time under him was the arming. and so salvador and military and this is a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south? the massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not

a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres in el salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big, massive purse there in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there, because that's where all the kid not all but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and desk, white killings. but what was happening at the same time. and elliot abrams was fully aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him, he did line a congress. he was convicted of that and he may be in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there, that's an error here. i was surprised. you didn't find that. i never knew

that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. and i have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like, well, and it could be exported. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq war was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, do you think we would be invaded? so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal. wow. professor dairyland go. thank you. that's it for one of your favorite shows of the season. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch my all social media if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch, will going underground episodes and odyssey and it all to you to come see very soon

with me who is the aggression today? i'm authorized to additional strong sanctions today. rusher is the car with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing through your future. my problem was to call sure as we speak on the bill in your senior, mostly mine or wish you were banding all imports of russian oil and gas new g i. g, with regard to joe biden, imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang self

with hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i'm funeral about western media pundents and politicians refuse to say the quiet part out loud. the conflict in ukraine actually has little to do with ukraine itself. this conflict is united western front against russia. this means when the war is over, it will be on moscow's terms in time. ah.