ah ah ah . hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle, western media, pundents and politicians refuse to say the quiet part out loud. the conflict in ukraine actually has little to do with you claim itself. this conflict is united western front against russia. this means when the war is over, it will be on moscow's terms. any time ah,

discuss these issues and more. i'm joined mom, i guess, here in moscow, dmitri so soft, he's the deputy director of the center for comprehensive european and international studies of the higher school economics. and we have a row is the founder of the center of political strategic analysis. strap poll gentleman cross stock rules and effect, that means you can jump any time you want, and i appreciate it. all right, let's start out with me. treat demitria it's. i find a really curious of the last couple of new cycles. we have the ukranian prime minister saying the war, they're winning the war and they will win the war and it will be over soon. and then you have one of the biggest cheerleaders of this conflict, a country within nato, the british prime minister boris johnson. in many publicly in front of media that ukraine is most likely going to lose this war here. so, i mean, can you kind of square the circle for me here? because the banks, the question, if the british prime minister doesn't think this war is going to be one on terms

that he finds acceptable, then why are they even pursuing it? because isn't this fighting a war to the last ukranian your thoughts? oh, 1st i fully agree the desire, the national, the west is really to fire this war until the last 2 korean because this war is indeed multiple to break. this war is about getting russia out from the position of great power and dos. restoring the leadership of the united states and the color west. the war is already contributed to consolidation of the west restoration of american dominance in europe, in a way which was unprecedented over the last, i will say 30 years. it is really about american lives. really about such an international water in which the united states would restore,

is position as a global leader. thus, whether ukraine is defeated, you know, in the, in the near future or in the long term future. how many ukrainians die. it really doesn't matter. the purpose is to insource process militarily economical or undermine it political or thus the west is interested in this war going on as long as possible. it is very, i think important that we have not heard any direct and explicit war from the united states that they support these agreements that they won't abuse agreement as soon as possible. you know, there was some speculation about that, let's say from paris, mark wrong, told a few supports the disagreement also of course are, you know, the leaders who maintain bias, russia, china, india,

they all claim that they want peace agreement as soon as possible, but not from the united states of the major ones from the united states because this is the regular offices. the interest is endless combination of this war. and again, i, station or ukraine dos were face increase of the supply reference that we're face constant pressure all the over the world for the countries to reduce their cooperation with russia. and we face the increase in survey. it was interesting, the new cranium president zalinski a couple of days ago said that, well i guess he made, he can make demands right now. he wants the west to pay ukraine, civil servants salaries and $7000000000.00 a month or something like when you want them or to keep going. you know, and i mean, that sounds like a really good grip here. but on a more serious note,

i think it's kind of counter intuitive when you think about it, because we get, we have the ukranian side saying, these are the mariel, you know, mary, also we will not be in negotiations with the russians. if this happens, we won't be in negotiations. if this happens, you know, the same story over and over and kind of reminds me of december, january and february when the russians were trying to communicate with the west. but the, the refusal on the part of the ukrainians to negotiate with the russians. basically, as i said in my introduction, it really allows russian to determine when the war is over and under what terms. i mean, they're not the, you know, the west is using ukraine is as a forum to get it russia and even the ukrainians of kind of, you know, walked away from their own agency by not being in the engage in some kind of negotiation. presumably would be in their interest, go ahead. actually, you know,

because of the stubborn a f, as a lensky and the west situation for ukraine as a state will be worse. for instance, months ago the, the, him, the war from russia was clear. it was then, as if you cation, the military is ation. and from the korean side, recognize the cra and the independence of the bus for big. but 2 days ago it was changed already. so no, russia opened the said that they will take control of the source part of the ukraine. so, so no, the russia is clearly talking about creating on the what i see the worst, the worst nightmare for the west end. it will be worse if zalinski and the west, the can't understand the current situation. and something is very interesting as well. and i saw it on the, on the french channel that the expense has during

a almost 2 months is the russian army destroy. and the doctor couldn't want to finish before the 9th of may, and he couldn't do it and put in a said and is a put in order minister. mystery of of defense never said that. they want to finish on the 9th of my and know what it explains at this. of course you destroy army, but we are going to take the house of ukraine. and if you continue what it means so, so the 1st proposal was refused. so this is a 2nd one is worth of the 1st, and if you don't understand the worse, so we will take both sides of the never that, that's, that's or there is of this stuff on politics from the, from the west, from, from that. because of course, it's not a war between russia and ukraine. it's a war between russia and nato in ukraine. that's exactly what happened. no. dmitri,

one of the, the way i look at this here is that this is a lease from the ukranian western side. this is just one really massive propaganda campaign because this is they, they want the west once a propaganda victory because a military one is simply not in the cards and, and that's what makes it very asymmetrical. one of the things i find very curious, i'd like to know what both of you think. why should we assume that these armchair generals in the west that haven't one wars for 30 years, they understand russia's war aims, other than the notification and demilitarization both can, you know, you can look very deeply into those. but there's in those 2 goals are very intentional, they don't really show very much. so what i have always said to people, and i get a lot of pushback, obviously, is that you, since we don't know what the, the end game, what the, the, the,

the russian side has in mind for ukraine. you cannot really understand the process of the military campaign and so if you don't understand the end game, you can understand the start and the middle part of the game go ahead meter. well, for, i think, no matter how much a reference of the west requires to your grading, it will not be able to radical shift the balance of power. simply impossible. i am, there is no way for ukraine, even with all the western support. a, you know, with sharing and so forth to, with this war, it's just impossible. and this makes the western position. so cynical of course, they understand that your grade is due for failure to, you know, either sooner or later, but it is due for failure. and they're just extending this, anthony,

i deliberately allow more people on both sides to die and more, if you, if you're going to suffer because of course, they also view the syllabus. i fully agree on the propaganda side of the informational dominance in the global media is one of the very few instruments of power which is almost fully possessed by the west. no, they are losing nuclear, they have already lost millions. they are losing financial dominance because is the error of the dollar termination, global resort currency. and exchange currency is ending right now. they are also, there also was a political dominance before the overwhelming majority of the western countries in search phrases, china, india, brazil, my middle eastern conference, latin american congress did not join sanctions. i, they,

they're actually strengthening the roster most decreasing. so the only instrument which is still in almost full possession of the west is information creating this narratives in the global media that they're doing. i agree, you know, there is no the, the narrative that they have nothing to do with reality because i remember the day defines the russian original russian and gave s complete occupational. you know, i was talking about them a call in 24 hours and all that. you know, exactly. i mean, i find it really astounding. if we look at afghanistan, we look at iraq, we look at syria, how these people can even show their face in public. ok. look, look at the fall of kabul. everything was fine in afghanistan into it wasn't ok and

these people are talking about what rushes military. and i mean, i never understood why any kind of occupation of kids would be necessary at all. ok . and now your why don't, you know, we will not allow ross or to, or to buy the whole of you over there. i'm too old to buy you. great. especially provided, i mean, even the very limited number of the groceries using in your brain. very limited. ok, but oh no, but there are shortages and they're asking china a, you know, actually what did russia, they started an operation in 4 direction. they observed and the saw that in a 3 direction of things going very well and very quick, very fast. so this is decided to concentrate the forces in the place where it's a most easier it's, it's your rule. it's nothing surprising. it doesn't mean that the doesn't want to

to bid them says if there is a failure in and also for credit is completely different. but you see the difference between the american forces and the reason for us is that you can fuss is lead by a communication team that there isn't wise of the sacrifice of troops in the report . they refused to evacuate them to fight in another line. ok, this is what a military i should have done, but in russia is exactly the country for break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion and you're going to stay ah ah . so chance interrogation techniques used by us officials were basically designed as techniques to break down the human

mind. if you force a human being to stay in a certain position, take very long to the pain involved to become absolutely sleep excruciating. but nobody lean single on you, you are doing it to yourself. we started adopting those techniques. when i was stationed in mosul, among them were stress position, sleep deprivation. and houston, i prefer, mia is already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques are now being used on immigrants and children, whatever you do in war comes home. nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past. the moral authority, the made america war later sacrificed the shimmer of effective interrogation. ah

ah, welcome back across that were all things are considered. i'm hearing well this is the home addition remind you were discussing some real news. ah yes, correct. exactly. here in moscow, we were talking about the how russia is pursuing opperation in ukraine and i and we had to go to break. so finish up, go ahead. yeah, i just, i would like to tell that the tina leading the ukraine forces are the commission communication team. that's the reason why the sacrifice troops in my you, paul, when they were able to move them to the west to fight again. but i don't want to

lose my uncle. exactly. and comparing hitler was in ski. ok, it's just a point of view for operation. exactly as the same that it can refuse to move the german troops into battle countries. because said, but if we move the about the countries bins or we lost the war. and so as the resolution go to rebellion and the german, the demand troops couldn't to fight any more, does the end of the war. so it's exactly the same. on the contrary, on the russian forces, this is the military were leads operations, and you saw that for instance, in kiff, of course, on the honor communication point of view, it was a fellow for russia because a kiff could pretend that they start to control infancy then that'll but actually it vladimir putin doesn't care of that illegally gives the lead to the military. and so that the forces to bring them to the are the men

operation. demand operation is the east of quinn for to reason. first of course is the question of liberating gun bus. and the 2nd point it, because the army zucker arm you were about to invade, don bus is all concerted on this at this place. and again, zalinski and of course, is our sponsors. there doesn't wants to move the current army to move them to the west, to try to, to build a new line of defense. there will lead them a hand in severe illness. can you see chance? it's love just because i don't want to lose the communication. we're but underwritten size. i don't care of losing a checker. we're when there will be a nipple. it was in or in odessa at such a good point in time. you know, me go back to dmitri here. i mean, you know, obviously it's my job to cover western media on this topic and i've been, you know, unlike a western media, i've been covering this ever since the my other qu on the my done in 2014. and so

the context is very real and meaningful to me and it's obviously for both of you here. but the, this, there's very little commentary about who is it, who has influence of the in the regime. and can we have these a soft group? we have private sector, we have, we have a really maligned group groups of people that are turned into freedom fighters, which in fact they are not ok in the, in the intelligence service, the s u b. even before the military conflicts started on february 24th of this year, there was scathing criticism of their behavior as a secret police, very much along the lines of the stars in east germany. please tell us a little bit more about that because that's really a black hole in the coverage of this conflict. or 1st, i will read it, discuss the issue of the west grading narratives which are very little with the

reality. and the narrative for democratic government in ukraine is precisely why you know, because 1st, again, joe biden is widely talking about the democratically elected government to new grade. here to be are in mind that the current regime in ukraine as a result of it as a lot of cool. right? so yeah, physical is in the ascii was elected, but the whole regime came to power mode as a result most through a credit process. and secondly, especially already before the beginning of the russian special operation, but especially during witnessing a very record transformation of this kind of geared towards a staunch dictation, i will say, comparable to the theater ships and central asia in the previous case.

most even today, we're going to what we are viewing political part as being a political rivals been put into prison, or maybe even torture and persecuted. right? all the opposition is being burned down completely. any one, both among the political elite in the society who does not share the mainstream is being interrogated and persecuted, right them. people are in danger or they can no longer have to point out to me is that all media has been national, virtually on media has been nationalized. and so there is no freedom of speech in the part of the brain which is under the control of the key right now. and this is the real thing which is

completely missed by the west who continue to create the picture of the struggle, you know, between the bad it's been so hold off right there in russia. and so my credit, you know, in fact, it does not match the real technical exam. yay, yes, i would like to add that there is 2 men. opponents. 2 are lensky. the 1st one is maybe the truck is in jail. the 2nd one is a natalie sherry is in excel in spain, and oh, and actually it, and it didn't stop because of the war because a year ago already zelinski close 3 tv channel. because there were a provision is supposed to be production channel. and there was supposed to belong to me, which look. and actually it took sanctions, again, is all citizen. so know the care for him is origin when you can send people to j,

you can a sits without any court just taking the decision from the because the prince decided, and the prince know, is a lensky. so of course, it's not a democracy, is just a, it's just addicted to a country. because of course, when you should not agree you will be interrogated. and what is interesting is what happens know, in the source of ukraine. we're the region where the russian immediately the control, i mean our region and to sort of the up arrow to region knows. there is a military civilian administration from the russian side. and people are very happy using rouble. they can again speak russian in the street in the school. in the university. we don't been being a 3 than we are getting penalties. so in my opinion, is that the russian need to do, and i would like another example if you are,

if you allow me know that the city of cooper and it's about under 30 kilometers, increase of rock of was immediately taken by the russian because of the local mass say okay, don't to destroy anything. we will cooperate with you. and what did the s b u z kidnapped her daughter, his his daughter and the threatened him. and so he had a 2 megabits each and you can find it easily on the internet saying that he zelinski is responsible for what will happen to his daughter. so this is a little bit liver. we are know. you look at the look at some adventure when you were song by s b, u, it was kidnapped, i think maybe 3 weeks ago. and it's clearly that the, the condition where he leaves know, are very hard for him. and it's even a shame a showing the domain, again, is a main resiliency is open and look at him. it's exactly is a symbol of the shift key regime he's know. yeah, well, you know that,

that's all part of the narratives that dmitri has been mentioned on this program already. another a narrative that is actually again, very counter intuitive. so the west sanctions, russia, sanctioned, like no other country. and we've talked about sanctions on ran north korea been right, has under a sanction here. but you know, everything that goes wrong in the west, immigration inflation, a supply chains. and it's also the religious as a you, thanks unit you cause all these problems for your own people. and then you say, but it's the russians call it what is the boot and price i, it's, i like to call it here. i mean, again, it's really, this is really just a propaganda campaign because if you get down to it, ok, so you want to cut off russian energy. so you take that energy off the market, the price goes up, and russians make more money for. i mean, i don't know who's thinking about these ideas because the more they push,

the more they hurt themselves. and they're having a very difficult time. because i think, personally, there's going to be a lot of social unrest in the west because of this. this is, and the sanctions, no matter what happens or not going to go away any time soon. metering. well, i say that this process of social rivers are, you know, the inflation a united states is unprecedented for the last 3 decades. i and it's going to be worse, no better or worse, the more sanctions dos the west apply to worse is the domestic condition, but also the worse is the state of the global economy. you know, what drives me is for instance, the latest statement by the minister of finance of the g 7, which was the doctor last week, claims for ridiculous the sanctions against russia award designed in

a way that there are a global. i mean, this is just a staunch line from a to set, of course, precisely the anti russian sanctions and the result of the increase of their price is the major reason behind the increase of the price. no, because we started that of the car is full of economics. and over the last 50 years there is absolute defenders, direct absolute dependence between the price of oil and the price. you know, they just follow the unrest and social and rest of course a pro level who, you know, the food deficit, the price would result in the famine in the 3rd world,

in africa as a game already know, the g 7 countries are trying to blame on russia, whereas in fact they are the responsibility because it is their attempts to establish new oil embargo on russia, which results into the price. i right? yeah. i like global the com to finish on this, we just got the reports coming out of the u. k. now that the upcoming winter things remain the same, is that they're going to be extreme fuel insecurity for the average britain. who would have thought that for a g 7 g, 20 country. but that's where we are gentlemen and all the time we have. i want to thank my guest here in moscow. i want to thank our viewers for watching us here to see you next time. remember, rostock was a who

is the aggressor to day? i'm authorized with additional strong sanctions to day russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing up in yo sich of look, almost a cosigner as we speak on living. believe senior most in mind the we're, we're ship, we're banding all imports of russian oil and gas news. i always suffering though. i know they plenty of holes with lower, with the rest of the fed said the same for the little kirk miller with regard to joe biden and imposing these sanctions on russia. jo has destroy the american economy, so there's your boomerang. ah, ah,

needs to come to the russian state. total narrative. i've stayed as i'm phoning the northland scheme div, asking him the knock ingles sunset for a coup in the 55 when. okay, so mine is the final speed anyone else with will ban in the european union? the kremlin? yup, machine. the state aunt, rush up to date and school r t spoke mckibbin, our video agency, roughly all band on youtube. and with me, a

if anybody's been trapped in an elevator, 20 minutes could be pretty long time right. and a load trapped in an elevator for 20 minutes. not knowing what's gonna happen, not knowing where you are, the sense of sensory deprivation. i think that if you're life now, 20 minutes about an hour, not at all. you're in the intercom is nothing i was trying to get you out. i was keeping you in is your communication ah, that's existence ah.