in el salvador, what should we expect from the country supreme court, opening up a new investigation to the murders of jesuits clerics that inspired st. oscar romero himself mounted 45 years ago. we speak to an expert witness. in the case. those are more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st we are on the eve of the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, which sparked global outrage against the british government for parachute regiment, soldiers killing unarmed civilians. and also, no one has ever faced trial and bras. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining me now from cook's down and island is fine and people middle france malloy. thanks so much for coming back on. i mean, people were waiting this week for su grey in an inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry. the people may have forgotten about. tell me and remind us about what bloody bloody sunday was. and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and officials after the atrocity. well,

thank you very much for the invitation to come on. a really sunday was change in our parish political saying it was a massive change because for the 1st time and the celebration pm, british soldiers had i went in and opened fire a with a branch on, on, on arms and marching. they and they, they targets were very much in that i don't even walk in honda and han as the song said that after time on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the sam america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change. and surprised to people is id were on armed on i'm civilians, women and children, families out a demand in civil rights on the compressor, right? i have for this attack to happen to guess it was of course, i don't 2nd bloody sunday because it is a is well,

i'm pretty still choking copart as to where to remind her of those days. and that the, the war was still continuing. a bay, the british goblin, the british army in and during. yeah, the 1st one, when churchill saw black and tans fired into into a gigantic football stadium. but i mean, i'll get to the parachute regiment, the 2nd bars johnson, the prime minister has said previously that as regards who should take responsibility for it, there would be quotes, there would be a storm of utter fury if 4 men would charge for killings. while the i r a gets away with it. when, of course, a lot of i re men and women should have long periods of time in jail. thousands of them a long cation english present, and irish print, across words, a reporting and directly convicted in jails. some of men on by it skeptical grounds, unforced, compassionate, and torture on all the rest of the go, the legacy off of the british control. and iran is so the,

the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died running sunday, the 13 on the day on one followed after that nobody has been found guilty of that. it is very clear from the witchery tribunal. first of all, it was a told her arse, a on and things could have been sorted. i thought i'm, what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convict soldiers for doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that rash this come iraqi foundation shake. well, of course falling out is off the nuremberg. no, no excuse for any kind of atrocity. and you're going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day. frank kits and he had been in cyprus in bahrain in the number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence movement that he's alive. we invite him on on the show,

he was commodity one parent also involved in valley murphy, 9071. when of course, frank kitchen was the architect of all of us, not only of the shoot to kill policy which retired on sunday, and by the marquee and other parts of the north brain, which in the end of the collision, it were used to the loyalist forces in collision with the armed force of beauty are on the or you see to character orders on the nationalist table kitchen series. as he put in the book is name which in light of the strategy that we owed by the irish, you'd regimen mistake. and it is remarkable that the high he had never been held or are all c atrocities of catered on the, i'm sorry that he give and as you say, and not only in iron but around the word where he divided and conquered, where they partitioned and where the murdered people to try and put down any objections to pretty early in whatever compet maybe went over

a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but disgraceful mis. c. i a boss general. the trends that he read. frank kitchens book, when they're trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq, what does it make you feel that the events in bloody sunday and some are connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east or west asia in the past few years, well it, it just as colonial or on the domination that britain has tried to you across the word, the empire story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold on to as many areas untested osman, whether it be based, happen in goblins to eat, to replace others, may partition increased in order to divide and conquer. they all, whether as on the salmon island or the partition in the country after the going on the up 1920, that jackie then finish up on the c. m strategy on the same idea. it was some say

written has are not and learn. but one thing that has daunted us continued to do, got a don at those times. i'm right to read is colonial, ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels of the good friday agreement put a gotten behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid? south africa and the role of m, i 5, the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the clues of behavior, according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which was only released in the past few days when they get quite clear. just gloucester british government have been involved in, in no 50 years from the early civil rights come p. m. i took part in the foresaw rice marston, california, and i was id be looking for a woman, one boat, right to house. and right to a joe,

a on the british government on storm and at that time couldn't deliver no simple demand because to give people race will stay in the country and they would live for jobs and stay on the work number. they had the union vote in the years to come, so they had the whole collusion issue has been part and parcel of the british controlled island and unable to this day. and there, of course, the most recent course, number one, clearly stint that it was collusion in the borders that collusion directed by the british government collision implemented by the or u. c, u d r i. and on special ranch, the importation office, as african americans by british agents. i think that a tang whenever the south african regime was come to an end and were the at the british were re army, the loyalist here. i lost the martyrs. that happened that time. where borders catered bay who was weapons brought in from south africa? well, i mean, it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained way it works in the way it

operates, it will change significantly. what about jeremy corbin actually? i mean, some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow still lingers of british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security services reprisal today. yeah, i think there's also that fear within them on but i know jeremy i went on and john dawn and others within there. great. paul rose with all the key players at the time of the civil rights champion and even jim gun. and he come to darian id, spoke in relation to re, to plan the wrongs robin age. the way i'm whitelaw with a check understand that pro dormant quit and he brought an end to storm with our department stoned it no longer up armed or something assembly because they couldn't

manage the at the proper control apart and, and they, if you get it the special powers actually also want to get it the, the sure to get it on the integer to internment. no ramp. often with the go ahead from the british government introduced determine which again, infected winds on the national staple, and turn people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any was were. and of course, you have to remember that it was who i re in operation no ready, sunday and others got out. we became recruitment agents for the ira because the, i want the british government were doing. and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement in my 5 are allowed to operate freely with the b s. and i, i'm going to ask about joe biden. he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes, obviously britain wanted perspective trade deal with united it. do you think bloody sunday as a factor in joe biden, some actions towards his nato ally,

britain. well, i, i don't know the details. i was, he, aaron went away. he was thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players business, want to keep there and bring about the good friday agreement. and i think right, of course i, america, there is the good 12 support or the nation is cause because they know what britain infected i and over the years debating and others know that like the kennedys that actually had to i'm a richmond looking for walk because of the ashes of the british government in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and play a plant in what a good friday agreement and in the political dimension of i can move and things look forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if he interfere with the good for a raymond, that the you, when we know did agreement between britain on the market and show that of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and it's

a labor i think i'm right to work and make sure that the carrier to control it, make sure that they act be a good friend. agreement is our top purpose and knocked down in any way whatsoever . but whoever the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented, we need to see if fully implemented and again, know your talk on your after the great fabian with the same. and we still haven't got the full implementation of the k for him. and that's up to both the british and the irish carbon next year, as guarantors that they carry that out. because we do have the right to have built on irish unity. and that's been held back by their bread it when he started to stand at the present time, it will give that referendum when i resumed it in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been adopted. friends, well, i thank you. thank you. after the break and other nato nation atrocity, we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged

us back 989 jesuit priest masika in el salvador, all the smoke and we have about 2 of going underground. ah, is the aggression today? i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing. i figure which of our willingness to call. sure. as we speak on the bill in your senior, mostly mine or wish you were banding all imports of russian oil and gas, new g i. g with the literature were given regarding joe by imposing these sanctions on russia, you know, has destroyed the american economy. you, so there's your boomerang ah

mm. welcome back 100 years ago today. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations. we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government. ms. increase us influence in the region. one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most

notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 989. now, $33.00, as all the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened. after a now overturned amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies. department professor terry lynn call. thank you so much, professor for coming on in part one, we talked about the 50th anniversary of matthew k killing in ireland known as bloody sunday in the attempt for justice. why is all, salvador opened this criminal investigation into events in 1989 when, of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think reagan actually diff, a fund in the you, the salvador and military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk was along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform

and then go out and kill people and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of elma, so tay, which is the worst massacre in latin american contemporary history. they had their uniforms on. now that's really important because we open the jesuit case. the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military. therefore, the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened, it will be opened on civilians. and not on the military, that's my understanding. the civilians are, are present in our for christianity, who was president of the arena party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who is quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged and i very much doubt we will see any salvadoran

military charge if they are, they will be very low level. if this case proceeds forward i on the, on, on whether it actually proceeds or it was, he, the president denies the that there is anything being cooked here. you testified as an expert witness with trials in spain. you expect to be an expert witness in this one? i do not. i think that the spanish have all the evidence they need. they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the a random party who i have particularly president christianity. it was just resistor revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts. a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually a way to pressure the rain a party which the bouquet government would like to see

a disappear. i should just quickly say though, thanks president the christiane, he has already denied involvement in the killing and killing the brace, the investigation. i mean, i should be investigation and you have you ever felt this that it should. it should target fort benning in georgia, where i understand the ledge killers were all trained the school of the americas. well, you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military and the highest commander was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? that's really the, the issue that was in the spanish case. he was an uninvited co conspirator. in the spanish case. it is very clear to me, and this makes salvador in law different than spanish law that president

christianity knew about this mask. the mask, or the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also, in, was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known and failed to prevent this, or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact, culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of the military, even though he didn't really control the military, it's well, he denies wrong doing and also leaving from leap under papers indicating the alleged legality. let's just go to wilma 0 to you, better just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in about animals. mrs. thatcher

was a friend of general finishes. what happened in l. mazata in 1981 in 1981, the salvadoran military. i pushed large part by the united states. i went into areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas, and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location, was a gorilla. and that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied their territory. now what happened in the so day, which is as i said, the largest massacre that we know of in latin america in the contemporary period is the atlas cattle battalion of the, of the salvador military which was formed under, i would say u. s to legit was training in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of

elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed. the guerrillas had left the area because they had a great deal of forewarning that this was coming, but in the town of elma, so say there was a story that the people in ela so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma, so take much more than the actual population of the city of the ville. it's a little village. and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down on that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes. that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town

. they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again. at dawn, they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st. they told the women that they were taking the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people, of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so tay, what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1992. or there was only enough money to take up that $1.00 of the sites where a $124.00 children and all of these were babies. they were very young,

are dug up. and i had the sentences of rape reported and of, and the children being hang, do you know where we've had to for the national security advisors on this show? we had right, elliot abrams on he was assistant secretary state at the time and he is subsequently been the special representative of the united states to iran and to venezuela. of course, many allegations about you as well as the venezuela. in recent times he says that the actually the numbers do not tally at all of the for a start. the u. s. military, people like general galvan layton major commander 7th, wanda, would never counter torture. this is more generally there. and as for l mazata, there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people though. well, he's using a line of defense minister garcia,

who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 1992 forensic dig, was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were be headed in the soccer field, and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed in what was called the convent, that they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear, they were mass heard by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united states,

those who killed him where the outlaw cancel. there is no doubt of us this, there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador is that you can on no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna, the identities of many of the children so that they are very small caskets can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying, that this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvadoran military says that this was a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have

and we have a lot ought of, as it is a ok. well reagan's as this is like your st. thomas and the said no evidence to confirm government voices actually systematically, mascot civilians are we later of commons. i like want to say that he later wrote an op ed and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials. but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry, he had testified in the us congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean, you're on a command, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of vanguard, diarrhea, and god, perhaps of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are forces that still one to oppose your view led to what was

done was wrong given that you abraham. so, you know, in the night he said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the dud course, he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy of the time under him was, ah, the arming and so salvador and military and this is a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south a massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres and all salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big, massive purse there in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there,

because that's where all the kids, not all but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and desk. what killings but what was happening? the same time. and elliot abrams was fully aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him, he did line a congress. he was convicted of that and he may be in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there, that's an error here. i was surprised to verify that i never knew that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. and i have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like, well,

and it could be exported. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq war was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, do you think we would be invaded? so there is a difference in a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal. wow. professor dairyland go. thank you. that's it for one of your favorite shows of this season. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in to watch my all social media if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch, will going underground episodes and odyssey and it all to you to come see very soon ah, so called enhanced interrogation techniques used by us officials

were basically design and as techniques to break down the human mind. if you force a human being to stay in a certain position doesn't take very long to the pain involved to become absolutely excruciating, but nobody's lean finger on you. you are doing it to yourself. we started adopting those techniques when i was stationed in mosul. among them were stress positions, sleep deprivation, and using hypothermia. there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques are now being used on immigrant children. whatever you do or more comes to home. nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past and the moral authority that made america world liter sacrifice for the shimmer of effective interrogation.

with western countries wants to drag out the conflicts and ukraine by supplying kids with more weapons. according to the russian foreign minister all corresponded reports from a village and done yet republic, where number of band, musician, munitions, excuse me, abundant by ukrainian troops. thus, despite claims they're destroyed years ago, we once again found a huge variety of different mines, great in positions, again, mines that ukraine had claimed that told the international community. it doesn't have like these mon lives you. but also here, as you can on the you of the on see on india trying to pressure you delhi to turn it back on russia. that's a high.